ATTN: All homosexual christians!

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

Shinigami07

Homosexuality is wrong. What about the homosexuals? What if we don't practice? I have been struggling with accepting myself for a long time because of my beliefs.

Well, really according to the Bible, there is no such thing as a homosexual person who doesn't practice. That would be akin to saying, "I'm a drunkard, but I don't drink." It just doesn't work that way.

The modern concept of a "homosexual" is an invention of recent decades. It's definition today, of someone who has a "sexual orientation" that they are born with and cannot resist or change without damanging themselves psyhcologically, has never existed in any previous society. (Obviously, either every society in the world previous to ours was very ignorant of their own natures, or else the modern concept is false).

So when anyone, as a Christian, considers themsevles to have homosexual temptations, I wouldn't be so quick to use the label of being a "homosexual." Remember, after all, that the Bible says homosexuals cannot enter heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). But if they are a Christian, then we do believe they are going to heaven; so how does that work?

The difference is in the definition. When the Bible says "homosexual," it means someone who actively pursues and practices the sin of homosexuality. Just as when it says "thief," it means someone who goes out and steals things. Have I ever been tempted to steal something? Of course, but I wouldn't consider myself to be a thief just because of that. Someone who resists the temptation of homosexuality is therefore not a homosexual, in the Biblical meaning of the word.

Remember that Christ was tempted while he was on earth, strongly. He was tempted in everything that we have ever been tempted by, including stealing and lusting; and that temptation of lust could well have sometimes been in a homosexual context! But he wasn't a theif or homosexual, because he never let those temptations take root as desires, and certainly not as actions. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." - Hebrews 4:15

This doesn't mean that any of us can be sinless. We will be sinners for all of our lives. But if we, as Christians, are struggling with and fighting a sin such as homosexuality, then we are not the same as a non-Christian who has no reason to avoid giving in to that temptation. God has given us a reason to resist it, and the ability to resist it, through his Spirit and Christ. And if we are resisting it, even if we are less than perfect at doing so, then it is a far cry from someone who is unashamed of their practicing homosexuality.

So in my belief, based on what the Bible teaches, there is no such thing as a non-practicing homosexual. They are just people who are tempted by a particular sin, as all of us have particular sins we are often tempted with.

The question that arises, of course, is what if someone who claims to be a Christian does practice homosexuality without resistance? Does that mean they must not really be a Christian? Well, the Bible certainly has strong words for anyone who claims to be a Christian but continues in their sinful ways. It certainly calls them to question the condition of their own heart and soul. Such a person needs to read the Bible, participate in a Bible-believing church, and pray. If they are truly a Christian and do these things regularly, they will be convicted to begin to resist their sinning. Of course, all Christians need to do these things regularly. We all have sins that we need to be reminded of and led to overcome.

Whatever sins we are tempted by, whatever sins we have committed in the past, we should not let those sins identify us. We shouldn't put them onto ourselves as labels. Because every time we fail and give into a sin, though it may stain us and hurt our relationship with God, we have a substitute who has taken our label for us, the label of "sinner." And because of him, we can confess and repent of that sin to turn back to God in his name. Ultimately, the only label and indentity we should apply to ourselves is that of Jesus Christ, as we live in his name.

The same goes for those that have sex before marriage I suppose. neutral  

[Crimson Raccoon]

I'm not sure what you mean. How is having sex before marriage the same as being attracted to your own gender and never having sex?  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

I'm not sure what you mean. How is having sex before marriage the same as being attracted to your own gender and never having sex?

Because both straight people and gay people can abstain from sex. Sex before marriage is the key principle you seem to neglect.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

I still don't get what you mean. People can abstain from sex before marriage... yeah... but what's so key about that in what I said? Is there a point you're making, or did you just want to say that I didn't talk about that?

When you say, "The same goes for those that have sex before marriage," it's difficult to figure out what you mean by that when you're referring to a post that's 9 paragraphs long with several points. The same what goes for those who have sex before marriage?

Maybe I'm just being stupid but I honestly don't see what you're saying. sweatdrop  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

I still don't get what you mean. People can abstain from sex before marriage... yeah... but what's so key about that in what I said? Is there a point you're making, or did you just want to say that I didn't talk about that?

When you say, "The same goes for those that have sex before marriage," it's difficult to figure out what you mean by that when you're referring to a post that's 9 paragraphs long with several points. The same what goes for those who have sex before marriage?

Maybe I'm just being stupid but I honestly don't see what you're saying. sweatdrop

It doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or lesbian or bi or transgender as long as you're abstinent and stay that way till you marry, you're in the clear. -.-  

[Crimson Raccoon]

-xXLady RaiXx-

Crimson Raccoon

I still don't get what you mean. People can abstain from sex before marriage... yeah... but what's so key about that in what I said? Is there a point you're making, or did you just want to say that I didn't talk about that?

When you say, "The same goes for those that have sex before marriage," it's difficult to figure out what you mean by that when you're referring to a post that's 9 paragraphs long with several points. The same what goes for those who have sex before marriage?

Maybe I'm just being stupid but I honestly don't see what you're saying. sweatdrop

It doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or lesbian or bi or transgender as long as you're abstinent and stay that way till you marry, you're in the clear. -.-

Yes, you should stay abstinent until you marry, I agree. But how is this a key point that I'm neglecting? I was just saying a non-practicing homosexual isn't really a homosexual by Biblical standards. What does the fact that anyone can stay abstinent have to do with that?  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

-xXLady RaiXx-

Crimson Raccoon

I still don't get what you mean. People can abstain from sex before marriage... yeah... but what's so key about that in what I said? Is there a point you're making, or did you just want to say that I didn't talk about that?

When you say, "The same goes for those that have sex before marriage," it's difficult to figure out what you mean by that when you're referring to a post that's 9 paragraphs long with several points. The same what goes for those who have sex before marriage?

Maybe I'm just being stupid but I honestly don't see what you're saying. sweatdrop

It doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or lesbian or bi or transgender as long as you're abstinent and stay that way till you marry, you're in the clear. -.-

Yes, you should stay abstinent until you marry, I agree. But how is this a key point that I'm neglecting? I was just saying a non-practicing homosexual isn't really a homosexual by Biblical standards. What does the fact that anyone can stay abstinent have to do with that?

Attraction is a complex subject to debate. One doesn't know the reasons why people are attracted. And one can't say that a "non-practicing" homosexual isn't a "true" homosexual. In fact your statement is merely subjective.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

-xXLady RaiXx-

Attraction is a complex subject to debate. One doesn't know the reasons why people are attracted. And one can't say that a "non-practicing" homosexual isn't a "true" homosexual. In fact your statement is merely subjective.

Ah, now you've made your point so I can respond to it. Actually my statement is not subjective at all. If something is subjective, that means it's based on opinion, or one's personal feelings. My discussion was not based on that at all; I said it was based on the Biblical definition of the word homosexuality, and by that definition, there is no such thing as a non-practicing homosexual. That is a fact, not a subjective opinion.

Actually, your statement that "attraction is a complex subject to debate" is a good example of a subjective statement. It's subjective because it's not based on anything solid; there's no factual basis for saying that it's a complex subject to debate. Also, "complex" is a only relative term and based on opinion, and I disagree that it needs to be so complicated.

I also don't think it's accurate to say that "one doesn't know the reasons why people are attracted." Several explanations have been given. There could be genetic reasons; it could be a psychological situation brought about by the circumstances of our youth; it could be societal pressures and responses. Likely it is a combination of these things, and it is certainly not impossible for research to come to a proper explanation.

But getting beyond the specific reasons why an individual may have homosexual attractions, the Bible explains that the underlying cause is simply that we as humans have a sinful nature. It's this nature that leads us to have any inappropriate desires that lead to temptation. It's really as simple as that for any tendency toward any sinful behavior. It shows our need for God to overcome this problem: since the source of the problem is within ourselves, we need something outside of ourselves to fix it.  

[AgentAbhorrence]

Shinigami07

AgentAbhorrence

I think that "Heathen" comment was very rude. And I agree with Pettos' comment on this.

But I do have something that puzzles me. Why is homosexuality a sin, if people are born like that. They do not choose to be homosexuals, and this is a bit devastating if they are Christian and they know that being a homosexual displeases their god that they love so much. A straight person just can't wake up one day and say "I'm gay/lesbian" because they know that society looks down upon it and they will receive harsh criticism, and they know that they really aren't homosexual. This same thing applies to homosexuals. They can't wake up one day and claim they are straight because they are not and they can't help it, even if it's against societal rules, they will be homosexual no matter what.

Oh, and please don't try to convince me that people are not born homosexual. You have no way of proving that... especially if you're heterosexual.

Hearing you say this made me very happy. It's what life's been like for a long time. A constant struggle between how I am with how I should be and what I believe. Can we be friends? ^_^

Sure we can 3nodding

@ Crimson: Wow, not much has been going on since I left.
I don't want to start another multi-page discussion again, mostly because I wouldn't have any time to devote to it, lol, but I would like to know why humans are sinners in nature. If the Christian God is a perfect God, why did he create such imperfections in people?  

[Zukato Nokuchiku]

God doesn't create beings with imperfections, I think CS. Lewis said it pretty well.

"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." - CS. Lewis

The same goes with Lucifer who chose to go against God, I think we (ourselves) create the imperfections by our will. Im sorry, I cant really explain it...my english needs improvement.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Pettos the Pattus, English isn't your first language?? I had no idea, you write much better than the average gaian!

And you're right, C.S. Lewis describes it well, as usual. If I may expand on it at little...

When God created Adam and Eve, they were without sin. There was nothing sinful about their nature, and that's why he looked on it and said it was good. Actually, after each act of creation, he saw that it was good; but after humans, he saw that it was very good.

God gave humans free will, because he loves us and wants us to be able to love him. If we do not have free will, it would be impossible for us to love him, because though we may obey all his commands, we wouldn't be doing it because we chose to. So God gave Adam and Eve one thing that they weren't allowed to do, just one, so that by not doing it they were able to make a choice to follow God. If there had been nothing they could have possibly done wrong, it would have been like keeping a dog in a cage all the time; you'll never be able to experience it's love for you because you never give it the chance to run away, or to show its affection by staying with you. Or, it'd be like having a robot dog instead of a real one. Never makes a mess, never runs away, never eats what you tell it "Thou shalt not eat." But it has no free will and cannot love.

I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will. -Philemon 1:14. Not describing the same situation, but showing the same principle that free will is necessary for goodness or love to be expressed.

There's a parable of Christ that relates to this. Jesus explains the issue of how bad things could have happened in a world he created as good. He explains about how Satan's influence led to the entry of evil in the world, referring to the serpent tempting them in the Garden of Eden. (Satan/Lucifer and the other angels also had the free will to love or disobey God, as Pettos mentioned). Jesus also uses the parable to illustrate why God allows this world to continue even though evil is still in it.

Quote:

He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
~ Matthew 13:24-30

So the direct answer to your question, Agent, is that God didn't create imperfections in people, nor create them with a sinful nature. We became sinful in nature when Adam sinned. He was our federal head, our "appointed representative," if you will, and the one we've all descended from. So when the first sin separated him from God, and the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge affected his nature by making him know Good and Evil, these are things that have affected the human race ever since.

God has been unfolding his plan for salvation from this separation and sinful nature ever since, and the history recorded in the Bible is just the history of that plan of salvation. It doesn't focus on battles, politics, rulers, and the things that most histories focus on. That stuff is in there, yes, but they're just secondary and incidental. The Bible's histories always put the focus on God's work to redeem, to buy back, his people from our slavery to sin. It culminated in Christ, with him paying the price for redemption and providing the way of being reunited with God. When Christ's work of salvation in this world is finished, this world will end and an entirely new one will be created, one that is eternal and perfect, and that cannot be corrupted.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Quote:

Actually, your statement that "attraction is a complex subject to debate" is a good example of a subjective statement. It's subjective because it's not based on anything solid; there's no factual basis for saying that it's a complex subject to debate. Also, "complex" is a only relative term and based on opinion, and I disagree that it needs to be so complicated

So you disagree with basic psychology. Tell me then, what chemicals in the brain make up attraction? neutral  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Pettos the Pattus

God doesn't create beings with imperfections, I think CS. Lewis said it pretty well.

"God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having." - CS. Lewis

The same goes with Lucifer who chose to go against God, I think we (ourselves) create the imperfections by our will. Im sorry, I cant really explain it...my english needs improvement.

If we were perfect then why do we have flaws? And don't say the sin of Adam and Eve. -.-


And your English is better than most Americans. biggrin  

[Crimson Raccoon]

-xXLady RaiXx-

Quote:

Actually, your statement that "attraction is a complex subject to debate" is a good example of a subjective statement. It's subjective because it's not based on anything solid; there's no factual basis for saying that it's a complex subject to debate. Also, "complex" is a only relative term and based on opinion, and I disagree that it needs to be so complicated

So you disagree with basic psychology. Tell me then, what chemicals in the brain make up attraction? neutral

I didn't say anything that disagreed with basic psychology. You accused me of making a subjective argument, which I clearly didn't, and I pointed out that your statement was a good example of being subjective, which it is. You think it's complex to debate, I don't think it's complex to debate: that's a perfect example of two subjective opinions.

And no, basic psychology doesn't teach that attraction is merely chemicals in the brain. Any psychologist will tell you that there's a lot more to attraction than that. But all of that is besides the point. How we can go from me saying that "According to the Bible, there is no such thing as a non-practicing homosexual," to your arguments that I disagree with basic psychology, I don't know. I'm sure any psychologist who read the Bible would agree that it only uses the word "homosexual" to apply to someone who actually practices. Not that a psychologist's take on the Bible matters more than anyone else's.  

[iy8970970607]

-xXLady RaiXx-

Crimson Raccoon

I still don't get what you mean. People can abstain from sex before marriage... yeah... but what's so key about that in what I said? Is there a point you're making, or did you just want to say that I didn't talk about that?

When you say, "The same goes for those that have sex before marriage," it's difficult to figure out what you mean by that when you're referring to a post that's 9 paragraphs long with several points. The same what goes for those who have sex before marriage?

Maybe I'm just being stupid but I honestly don't see what you're saying. sweatdrop

It doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or lesbian or bi or transgender as long as you're abstinent and stay that way till you marry, you're in the clear. -.-

But by that logic couldn't any practicing heterosexuals that have sex before mariage be condemed by "God" to hell?