Black Magick, what is it?

[EdanaDesmond]

All I have to say is ying/yang, male/female,day/night, sun/moon,If you can't catch what I just chuncked your way is you need balance in your live. There is no such thing as "Black" magic (personal opinion). Ignoring the darker side of yourself just blinds you, and more often then not when you do so you become the judger, and no one has that right. ((Even though I'm the last person who should say that considering I'm very judgemental. sweatdrop ))  

[upwoueruwrwhjl]

Could it be your death means nothing at all?

Having read this entire thread, I must say that I agree with those who are saying magic is neither bad nor good. Its a tool, that is all. And like a tool, it can be used for good, it can be used for evil, or it can be used in shades of grey. It has no free will to decide "Well, if you use me this way it's fine, but that way....oh no, you can't use me that way, that's bad!" It's not the magic itself that's bad, it's the use. Using magic to harm people is generally a bad idea, as under the Law of Three it will come back to haunt you, but I'd like to note (as I believe has been said before, sorry for the repeat if that's the case) that the Wiccan Rede doesn't actually forbid harming people. 'An it harm none, do what ye will' means 'do what you want if it doesnt harm anyone'. I cant find anywhere that it says 'if it harms, you can't do it'. You can, just be mindful of the consequences and try and do as little harm as possible.

Is your life just one more lie?

 

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Choir-Angel

Witchcraft is a world tradition, not just western European.

What other languages use the word "Witch" and "Witchcraft"? I've never heard of any besides our own. I've heard of stregas, magos, volvas, strigoi, brujas, hexe, shamans, Vodouisants, Kabbalists...

There are many different cultural forms of magic, yes magic is a world tradition... but only a number of them refer to it as "Witchcraft". And even fewer even resemble what we know as witchcraft in our countries.

Quote:

"Witch" and "Witchcraft" are of course English words.
Yes- English words from an English Culture, who had a very ancient cultural religious phenomenon in which men and women practised Seid; they used specific methods to achieve trance states, they prayed to certain Wanic Gods of Germanic lore and had a very certain and specific social context and very specific beliefs. And they were called Witches (among other related things). But the concept of "witch" and "witchcraft" is not universal.

The concepts of SORCERY and MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES are universal, and in the Germanic culture, it was called "Witchcraft", among other things. English Anthropologists started calling every single practicioner of Sorcery worldwide "witches" because that was their linguistic bias, but that DOES NOT make the worldwide sorcerous community "Witches".
This is nothing more than an ANTHROPOLOGICAL term that was mis-applied.

Quote:

I believe in karma because I choose to, in fact, in the Wiccan Rede it says: Mind the Threefold Law ye should, Three times bad and three times good.

Where does the Rede mention Karma? Or Dharma? Or any other Hindu/Buddhist philosophy? All I see is a poetic verse regarding simple cause and effect.

Quote:

I'm a Wiccan, and I believe in this. When I say the karma will come back, I don't mean in another life, I mean, if you harm some one, it'll come back in your current life.

Which is cause and effect, not Karma. Karma affects other lives also, this much is taught in the Eastern traditions from which Karma springs.

Quote:

There's no sense in a future life being ruined when you can't even remember why. Yes, I do believe in it punishing and rewarding people.

Then it's not Karma. This was my original point.

Quote:

There are many different beliefs. You follow yours, and I'll follow mine. But don't say what I believe makes no sense, because I could say the same about your beliefs. I won't though, because what one person believes works for them, and the other may believe in something completely different.

I'm not saying your beliefs make no sense, I'm saying what you're naming your beliefs makes no sense. In short, it's not Karma, it's a westernised concept of cause/effect put into the context of modern witchcraft. For it to be Karma, it would have to be an easternised concept of cause/effect, with regards to ones past and future lives, that is affected by ones Dharma.

Just because I may do something bad, that doesn't mean I'll go around saying I'm "Sinning", because I'm not a Christian. Not a perfect parallel, but close enough. Just because two beliefs may look similar, it doesn't make them the same. This is all I am saying.

~~~

dark_angel_32189

I'm gonna have to go with Choir_Angel on this one.

While you do make some very good points, just because you (Phoenix), (or anyone else for that matter), think what she believes in doesn't make any sense.... that doesn't give you the right to tell her that it's wrong. And I think you could have handled that way better than you did.

No two people are exactly the same. For example, if you believed that you were really a goat instead of a human... no one would have the right to tell you otherwise. Now, they could disagree with it (and probably think that you're psycho), but they couldn't tell you that you wrong, because in your head it would be true.

This is starting to remind me of when some "Wiccan" neo-Pagans are informed by Wiccans that they aren't Wiccan. Then the neo-Pagans start accusing the Wiccans of saying their beliefs are wrong or nonsensical, when they never said that, they just said they're naming their beliefs wrongly.


I'm not saying their beliefs are wrong, I'm just saying it's not Karma if you're putting into the context of Witchcraft and/or Wicca. Wicca doesn't have Karma, it has its own cause/effect paradigm. If you're a Hindu or a Buddhist, THEN it'd be Karma, because it's within the right context and would probably be the proper definition of Karma (ie. the Karma/Dharma balance, not the good/bad Karma crap that most westerners think it is).
I'm not telling anyone to change their beliefs, I'm telling them it's labelled incorrectly. In short Threefold Law =/= Karma. Just because one follows the Threefold law, or any other law of cause/effect, doesn't mean one's following Karma. All I was doing was explaining what the proper concept of Karma actually is from the Eastern point of view (since it's theirs, after all), I never attacked anyones beliefs.  

[Smex Flavored Jellybeans]

Well, I am Eclectic Pagan, first off,
and I'd like to say that...well, I
think that Black Magic is fine. WAIT
before you flame. sweatdrop
Black magic is color magic, and the
color black is for banishing bad spirits,
absorbsion (that looks so wrong) and
mystery. Now, I think Dark Magic (cliche, I know)
is what you mean. That kind of magic is pretty bad.
It violates other's free will, and it can cause pain and
suffering, which is not what Wicca/Witchcraft is about,
in my opinion.

 

[breana christine]

I'm pretty sure that it's like the bad kind of stuff like manipulation...but ask someone more informed on the black magick subject..  

[SwirlingDark]

I am intrigued by this question...

Neogoth666

what if you use a so called black spell on someone, but with good reason, say they are just downright evil, in every shape, way and form.

DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED. CAUSING OFFENCE IS NOT MY INTENTION

Good and evil do not intrinsically (sp) exist. Someone or something is not,in itself, 'evil' or 'good'. It's merely perception.

Hitler is perceived by many as an evil man because he slaughtered many innocent Jews, Gypsies and other such sects of society. HOWEVER. Many of his followers believed that this was a good thing. They believed that it was the best thing for their country and the world at large.

A serial killer is largely perceived as an evil person (and please don't start pulling specific ones out). We are taught that killing is wrong. But (I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, nothing more) maybe killing people could be perceived as a good thing. The Planet can only hold so many people, all consuming, all spreading... People are dying less and giving birth more.

Medicine is perceived as a good thing. Saving people who couldn't be saved ten years ago, ridding families of the grief of early deaths. But what if they were SUPPOSED to die? What if the higher power needed them for something? And then there's the overpopulation thing again. AND is living until you're old really such a great thing? You get stuck in some home with odd people and the family that were so upset when you were dying forget about you.

Good health is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.

Before you start flaming or anything, let me say these are just POTENTIAL POINTS OF VIEW. I am NOT saying I have these points of view, they are merely there.

Onto the subject of Black Magic.

Black magic is defined as interfering with somebody's free will. Why is this considered such a bad thing? Maybe you are interfering to prevent them from hurting others, like a banishing or a binding. Maybe you believe it's what's right. What if their free will had been tampered with in the first place? What if they were SUPPOSED to fall in love with you?

This is all just speculation, of course. Whatever you do and whatever intentions you do it with, the higher power will judge if what you have done is wrong or right or anything inbetween.

As for the subject of Karma, I think it is merely a borrowed term to describe the phenomena of the Threefold Law. When I say Karma, I don't mean in the Hindu sense, I mean in the sense that what goes around comes around. Just because two things have the same name, doesn't make them the same thing. I know of a T.V. presenter who has the same name as me, as well as a Girl Guide leader. Am I a TV presenter or a Girl Guide leader? No. I'm an unemployed woman who's thinking of volunteering to break the monotony of everyday life.

Oh, just so you know, I took Philosophy in college. I was taught to challenge a lot of things. This is where my little rant stems from.  

[FORTRAN77]

I guess the concept that some of the posts have been flirting with, but never quite reach is this: People are not good or evil; actions are good or evil. And none of us have the right to pass judgment, for we cannot see the overarching consequences of our own actions.

Simply being alive causes grief for other living things- you cannot be alive and not change where you are. Whenever you eat, you consume something that was once alive. I think that's what the Rede is referring to- not that you shouldn't do harm, but that you should tread lightly and do as little harm as you can, and help where you can, and hope the total of what you did ends up positive, because it's the right thing to do, because harming the planet and harming others is harming yourself, whether in this lifetime or the next.

The Threefold Law, from the way I understand it, doesn't hold for punishment in your next life- but if you ******** up the planet now, next time you're going to be living the consequences of your actions. Micro becomes macro, an ye shall harm none.

Hope that made some kind of sense.  

[Kyou Nitsune]

I think you can look at black and white magic however you choose, or even decide to not acknowledge the difference at all. But I look at it like this. White magic is any magic used to heal, while black is used to harm. This does not make one 'good' or 'evil'. Harm can be an important positive force as well, because it is often through pain that we learn the most. Like someone said earlier, you parent might spank you to teach you not to do something and protect you from possibly hurting yourself in the future. Sometimes it should be a Witch's duty to send harm as a teaching force to prevent further harm in the future, and deal with the karmic backlash (as for the Karma debate, I'm using that word to describe a universal idea, not necessarily a Hindu or Buddhist belief, although I think there's nothing wrong with mixing an eastern idea with a western one. Personally I think limiting your spiritual beliefs to a specific geological region is a rather close minded decision, but who am I to judge?).

I don't think you should use black magic to harm someone if the outcome isn't overall a positive one. Otherwise you're just dealing out judgment for your own amusement, which I don't really support because I believe Wiccans should always work towards preserving the good of humanity as well as the earth.

If black magic can be avoided though, I think that you should use white magic instead. For example, you might be tempted to send a hex to a bully or something to teach them a lesson in the long run and to prevent the harm of others in the future, but maybe it would be better to send a healing spell towards that person to help them with their frustration and anger or problems at home, which would most likely alleviate their violent behavior at school/work/wherever.

You could argue that a healing spell cast on a bully still constitutes black magic because you obviously haven't asked their permission. I don't really think it does. Any time you cast a healing spell or any kind of spell to attract positive feelings for that person that doesn't really interfere with free will the most it could be considered is 'Grey' magic, if not good old fashioned white.

I don't condone interfering with free will, but thats a personal decision. The only time I would is if the person in question is willingly bringing pain to those around them, in which case they need to prevented from causing further harm. Manipulating free will just for the sake of it, be it in love spells, personal gain, or otherwise is just kinda selfish in my opinion.

These are just my musings though, and far be it for me, or anyone for that matter, to really say "this is definitely black magic and this is definitely white." Thats a decision each individual must make on their own if they choose to even recognize it at all.