ATTN: All homosexual christians!

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Or read the first bloody page and skim through the rest. -.-U

And typically the people that are saying that the bible says that homosexuality isn't wrong have extensively studied the Bible to know what you think it says, is a mistranslation and or misinterpretation.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Dark Angel Rai

Or read the first bloody page and skim through the rest. -.-U

And typically the people that are saying that the bible says that homosexuality isn't wrong have extensively studied the Bible to know what you think it says, is a mistranslation and or misinterpretation.

I did go through the first page; did you go through my whole post? Cuz you only responded to the first couple paragraphs of it...

And typically, the people who claim the Bible says homosexuality isn't wrong are just repeating things they've heard elsewhere, not because they themselves have done any studying on it. That's how it is with every claim people make; only very few people actually do the studying. And for the people who have studied the Bible, the vast, vast majority of them agree that it teaches that homosexual actions are sinful.  

[AgentAbhorrence]

Crimson Raccoon

AgentAbhorrence, it's no problem. ^_^ I wasn't offended by it at all, I was just pointing it out. Sorry if your family gives you pressure about the issue, I know that can really be rough. And I hope you're head is feeling better. =)

Alright, I'm glad I didn't offend. Yeah, it is rough.. during the time I wasn't here, things got a bit worse, but I think things will be alright for now. And my head is much better, thanks ^_^

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It can seem that not every religion believes they're the only right one, but when you get down to it, it really is true that we all hold "exclusive" claims, where one set of beliefs is right and others are wrong. The major religions of the world all teach that theirs is the only path to God, or salvation, or Nirvana, or whatever it is that the particular religion teaches. There are some religions, like some pagans you mentioned, that teach that there are many paths that "lead to the divine." But, they believe that they are right that there are many paths, and they believe that anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

True, but some Pagans don't believe that other religions are wrong. If you ask me, for example, I'll tell you that a certain religion is the only right one for a certain individual, and it's the wrong religion for another. This is what I was trying to say previously.

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For example, if Bobby believes that there are many paths to the divine, then he must believe that Christianity is wrong, because Christ taught that he is the only way to God. Bobby must believe that Judaism is wrong, because Jews believe that you must be a Jew to be a part of the chosen people of God, or that you must convert and join the culture of Judaism to become a part of the chosen people of God. Bobby must believe that Buddhism is wrong, because Buddhism teaches that the only way to Nirvana is through the process it teaches of attaining enlightenment. Bobby must believe that Islam is wrong, because Islam teaches that the only way to go to heaven is to submit to the will of God as described in the Koran. And so on, and so on. So even someone who believes that there are many paths to the divine still believes that they are correct on that, and that anyone who has a different belief on that is wrong.

I don't really have much to say here, except that there are so many beliefs in this world, and those beliefs sort of cancel eachother out. So there would be no way to find out which is the real true path.

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Religions that teach there are many paths to God have the appearance of being the most open-minded, but when it comes down to it, that belief in itself is exclusive. They have beliefs that they hold true, and they believe that anyone who disagrees is wrong. The point is that not all beliefs can be right. There are either many paths to salvation (and therefore, none of the major world religions are correct), or there is only one path to salvation.

I guess I'd still go by what I said in my previous comments, like, Christianity could be the right religion for a certain individual, and Buddhism can be the right religion for another individual. And both religions could be wrong for yet another individual. Since neither of these religions can be proven absolutely right for everyone or absolutely wrong, then it would be up to a person to choose which religion is right, which one will help them connect with the divine, and one that will help them live their lives in this world.

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We agree that homosexuality and slavery are both political and moral issues, but you say they are not both religious issues. I assume you mean that the issue of homosexuality is religious, and the issue of slavery is not. On what grounds do you base that? They are both moral issues, and morals come from religion. We say that the U.S. legal system is based on Judeo-Christian ethics - because the morals we base our laws on are from the Jewish and Christian establishment of morality. So anti-slavery is, at least in a general way, connected to religion, as all moral issues are.

What is it about homosexuality that makes it seem to you to be more connected to religion than the anti-slavery movement? Is it just because of the fact that most people who oppose homosexuality do so because of their religious beliefs? Because that's true for the majority of moral issues this country has faced, and it is especially true for the anti-slavery movement. The anti-slavery movements in both England and America were profoundly Christian-oriented, motivated, and supported. Also, The American Civil Rights movement of the 1960's was deeply rooted in Christianity. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian preacher, after all. The Christian foundation these movements had are under-emphasized in grade-school textbooks today, because religion has become a touchy issue in schools. But college level courses in African American history make it abundantly clear: The anti-slavery movement was a Christian movement.

And of course, so is the anti-gay marriage movement. The difference is only that in this case, Christians are against the change rather than supporting the change. But they are both equally religious issues.

I had it in mind that morals come from society and society does obtain its morals from religion, but there are many religions in existence, so the morals that we have today don't come from a single religion. And I would think that if the Bible said that slavery is wrong, then there wouldn't have been any slavery in the first place.
I didn't know about the Civil Rights movement being supported by Christianity, maybe because of what you said about textbooks, plus, I've never studied African American history in college.

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It's true that the Declaration of Independence does not necessarily have to refer to the Christian God; I only meant to point out that it depends upon religion in order to establish any kind of human rights. So my point is only that some kind of spirituality is necessary for any kind of rights or morality to exist, and that the founding fathers of America acknowledged this by saying that the Creator is the source of human rights.

I do disagree with you, though, that the Declaration intended to leave who the "creator" is open to any interpretation or any god. They may not have specifically said "the God as described by Christianity;" but what the Declaration refers to is a Monotheistic, providential God who is responsible for the creation of the entire universe, and responsible for the fate of humans. That, although it may not need to be only the Christian God, is still a rather specific view of God in the big scheme of things.

The words the Declaration uses in reference to God are, "Nature's God," "Creator [of all men]" and "Divine Providence." Notice they said "Creator" with a capital C, which is significant in the same way that "God" and "god" take on difference meanings if the G is capitalized. If it's capitalized, it's referring to one, specific, singular God; but if it's lower-case, it refers to a general god out of many possible gods. By writing Creator with a capitol C, they were fully aware that this meant a specific and singular God. Can I prove that this must mean the God of Christianity? No, other than the fact that it was a Christian society and all the signers of the Declaration were either Christians or Christian-influenced deists. But nonetheless, it is still a specific kind of God. Not just any god or religion can fit the description they gave.

I see what you mean, but I'm curious about why they wrote "their Creator" instead of "our Creator". If everyone based their morals on Christianity, then I'm guessing it would have said "our". But this would be straying from our topic a bit.

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You're right that the issues of spirituality need to be taken on faith. Science gives us proof of what can or can't hurt us physically, and to a certain extent, emotionally. But because spirituality is outside the realm of science, it's issues such as homosexuality or any issue of morality must all be left to faith, as you said. That's a good point. Science is based on reason, morality is based on faith. Reason and faith are both necessary to a society, and to our individual lives. The question is, what do we put our faith in? If we have a Christian faith, as the vast majority of American society has had since the 1600's, and going farther back than that in Europe, then we would believe that what is written in the Bible is God's word, and that therefore homosexuality is wrong. But for those who don't have any Christian-influenced faith, as is becoming more common today: if they don't believe homosexuality is wrong, I must ask them, what is it that they've put their faith in as a source of truth instead of the Bible?

I wouldn't know how to answer this since there could be many sources that people base their faiths on, and I haven't seen/read all of them.

Quote:

We've been talking about why I believe homosexual behavior is wrong, but if I may, I'd like to ask you, why do you believe it'd be wrong if a law banning gay-marriage was passed? Or going farther, why do you think things like slavery, or murder, are wrong? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really curious; because I know I believe slavery and murder are wrong because God created all men equally and he commands against hatred and abuse; but I don't know why you or other non-Christians believe those things are wrong.

I believe it would be wrong to ban gay marriage because I see no real harm done. When I look at gay partners, I see that they love eachother, they are faithful to eachother, and they are happy living with eachother... it's pretty much what I see with heterosexual partners. You could infer that I also believe that the other things you have mentioned, like having multiple partners, are alright as well, but in truth I disagree with some of them. But, I'm not going to stop people from doing what they want to do consensually without harming anyone, just because I believe it is wrong. I believe that things like slavery and murder are wrong because I can see that they're wrong without anyone telling me they are. I can't tell you what other non-Christians believe. I can only tell you what I believe, so people shouldn't take what I'm saying and assume that all non-Christians think like I do. If you really want to know, you should ask different kinds of people. As for me, I'll mind my own business and what I do in my bedroom, and others should mind theirown businesses and what they do in their own bedrooms, and no one should tell others how to live their sexual lives.

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Like, with the problem you presented about how some people viewed slaves as the same as animals. If we follow Christianity, then we know that slaves are people, and not the same as animals, because that is how God created us and that is what the Bible teaches. But if we abandon Christianity and go to just what science teaches instead, then all humans really are just animals, and there is nothing wrong with slavery because it is just an example of survival of the fittest and the strong being dominant over the weak, which is the natural way of things in the world.

So when you ask me what I would say to people who believe in souls and believe that homosexuality is not wrong, I have to start by asking them: Why do you believe it isn't wrong, and why do you believe it's wrong to be against it?

But if we abandon Christianity, then other religions would take over, wouldn't they? It wouldn't be just science that will take over.
I would ask them the same, because many people have different views on this... and I have already given you mine 3nodding

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Anyway, I hope I've at least given a good explanation of why Christians believe homosexuality is wrong, beyond just quoting the Bible verses. I think I've used up all my explanations on it; of course if you or anyone has any questions I can still try my hand or clarify things. But from this point on, really all it comes down to is whether or not Christianity is true. If it is true, then homosexuality is wrong; if it isn't, then it doesn't matter; and then nothing matters at all, unless we replace it with another religion. But then we have to figure out, which religion is right?

You have, thank you for that ^_^
I guess we'll never know which religion is right, or maybe we're not supposed to know, and in not knowing, we decide which one is right and try to defend it. This way, we can be more tied to our religions.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

On the DOI the word's Our Creator do not refer to the Christian God. Many religions have Creator Gods as I like to call them, so it's a neutral standpoint. You have to remember that many of the founding fathers were either Deist or Agnostic. Especially Ben Franklin. So they are not going to put anything Christian in the DOI or the Constitution. They in fact wanted religious freedom for all. If this were a Christian nation then why aren't people of different religions being persecuted like Christians are supposedly persecuted in other countries? If this were a Christian nation then why do Pagans, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Agnostics, Satanists, Deists, Jews, etc live in this country? Think about it.

And like Agent said. We all have our different paths. Not everyone's going to walk the same path nor will they feel comfortable with the same path that you walk. Trust me. I tried to walk the same path as my ex once, and it ruined me. I became depressed, suicidal, etc. My life was a wreck and I was stressed. I couldn't deal with people, fellow Christians telling me that how I believed, and the way I believed was wrong. Even when I said I was Catholic, I was wrong and a sinner. But now even though I'm doing research I'm happy with the path I've chosen as an eclectic pagan, I'm happier than what I've been as a Christian. Christianity is not the religion that fits all and is something you can't push on people. Remember, according to your teachings, your God gave us free-will. We are free to choose what we want to do with our lives. Only we can shape destiny. Savvy?  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Dark Angel Rai

On the DOI the word's Our Creator do not refer to the Christian God. Many religions have Creator Gods as I like to call them, so it's a neutral standpoint. You have to remember that many of the founding fathers were either Deist or Agnostic. Especially Ben Franklin. So they are not going to put anything Christian in the DOI or the Constitution.

You may not have read what I wrote about the use of the word "Creator," already addressing this issue. You could read it if you really are interested in this topic, it's in the post that Agent was responding to, on the 3rd page of this thread. I've never heard that any of the founding fathers were agnostic, so I have to doubt that; you may have been misinformed, but I'd be happy to research it some if you are certain. Agnosticism was very rare until about the 1800's, I believe. Some of the founders were deistic, but we have to acknowledge that it was Christian-influenced Deism: with Christian culture and tradition and morals, even a Christian-influenced idea of God, and many of them went to and participated in church.

(by the way, for the question Agent raised, about why they said "their Creator" instead of "our Creator" in the Declaration: The reason they said "their" is just because the grammar of the sentence was set up in the third person, since the subject, "all men," is a third-person subject. "Our" is first-person. It's just the way they worded it, is all. The only way they could have not considered the Creator to apply to themselves is if they didn't consider themselves to be human. If someone says, "everyone is made by the Creator," they definitely include themselves in that.)

Dark Angel Rai

They in fact wanted religious freedom for all. If this were a Christian nation then why aren't people of different religions being persecuted like Christians are supposedly persecuted in other countries? If this were a Christian nation then why do Pagans, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Agnostics, Satanists, Deists, Jews, etc live in this country? Think about it.

Religious freedom is in itself a Christian concept; the fact that we have religious freedom is actually evidence of the Christian influence this country has. If you think that if this was a Christian nation, other religions would be persecuted, that is based on the assumption that any religion in power will always persecute other religions below them, and it is a mere assumption. Christ commands that we not persecute anyone, regardless of their beliefs, so in a Christian nation, you should expect that other religions would be tolerated, as they are in America.

Christians have been responsible for persecution in history. But these were motivated by political power, not because of any teaching from the Bible. And those cases have not been the standard; in it's two thousand years of history, Christians have done far more to liberate people than to persecute them. So there's no reason to assume that a Christian nation would persecute other religions that live with or near them.

The fact that there are members of various religions living here has nothing to do with the principles our nation was founded on, and what morality our legal system is based on, and what the vast majority of citizens throughout our entire history have had faith in.

Nobody is claiming that this country's official religion is Christianity. Officially, this is a secular government, of course. But we cannot deny the enormous influence Christianity has had on this country. Religious freedom is why the first settlers came here; Christian principles are the values our country is based on and best known for, such as freedom and equality; the legal system is based on Judeo-Christian ethics, that is, morality as presented in the Bible; and the overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens have always been Christians.

Anyway though, I just realized how off-topic this all is. sweatdrop This statement you made concerns me, though: "Why aren't people of different religions being persecuted like Christians are supposedly persecuted in other countries?" It is not "supposed" that Christians are persecuted in other countries. Thousands of Christians really do die every year in countries where their faith is persecuted. People sometimes think that persecution of Christians ended in Rome, but actually half of the Christians who have ever been martyred have died just in the past century: there is more persecution going on today than ever in history.

A good website that gives news stories about Christian persecution and how to help, is persecution.com. It's important to be aware of, as is any form of persecution.

Dark Angel Rai

And like Agent said. We all have our different paths. Not everyone's going to walk the same path nor will they feel comfortable with the same path that you walk. Trust me. I tried to walk the same path as my ex once, and it ruined me. I became depressed, suicidal, etc. My life was a wreck and I was stressed. I couldn't deal with people, fellow Christians telling me that how I believed, and the way I believed was wrong. Even when I said I was Catholic, I was wrong and a sinner. But now even though I'm doing research I'm happy with the path I've chosen as an eclectic pagan, I'm happier than what I've been as a Christian. Christianity is not the religion that fits all and is something you can't push on people. Remember, according to your teachings, your God gave us free-will. We are free to choose what we want to do with our lives. Only we can shape destiny. Savvy?

Savvy? I'm baffled that people can come to a Christian guild, read answers that Christians give to questions that are asked of them, and then feel like someone is trying to take away their freedom of what to do with their lives. Christianity is not being pushed on anyone here. I honestly don't know how I could word my answers to make it feel less like it's being pushed on you. That really is not my intention.

If you are doing research on Christianity, though, I really advise you to go directly to the Bible. That's where Christians get their beliefs from, so it can't be a bad place to research, right? =P No one can explains the beliefs of Christianity better than Jesus and his apostles and brothers. I know you've probably read at least some of it, but there's a lot there. The four gospel accounts are best to start with; Romans explains basic Christian teachings in depth very well; and 1st John explains Christian love and living very well. Just some recommendations for your research. =)  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Savvy being understand.

And from what I've seen, most Christians are not for religious freedom. They are against. Either you're a Christian or you're not kinda thing. Either my way or the highway ya know? While most "worldly" religions could care less if you were a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, a FSM worshipper, etc. They don't try and force people to convert and realize that you have free-will and can do what you want.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Dark Angel Rai

Savvy being understand.

And from what I've seen, most Christians are not for religious freedom. They are against. Either you're a Christian or you're not kinda thing. Either my way or the highway ya know? While most "worldly" religions could care less if you were a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, a FSM worshipper, etc. They don't try and force people to convert and realize that you have free-will and can do what you want.

heehee, yeah, I've seen Pirates of the Caribbean, thanks. xp

What I'm not savvy to is how telling someone else about my Christian beliefs counts as "forcing" my beliefs on them. Forcing someone to convert means, "convert or I am going to do something bad to you." Do you know Christians who do that to you? If you do, you should notify the police or someone in authority, depending on how serious the threat is. If you don't, then you have not experienced someone "forcing" you to convert, you know?

I don't know of any Christian movements in America that are trying to take away other religions' freedom to worship. So, I don't know what you're referring to when you say that most Christians are not for religious freedom. When laws, policies, or other things are brought to the public to vote on, then Christians should vote their consciences on it, as should everyone; but that's just the way democracy works. It's not that anyone is forcing their beliefs on someone else, it's just that they are supporting and voting on their beliefs, as everyone is expected to do in a democracy.

Christians do share their faith with other people, it is a basic part of the religion. The reason Jesus and his disciples teach that we should share our faith, is because it is good news. It is good news to everyone who hears it and accepts it, that you do not need to pay the penalty for your sins, that you can have a personal relationship with God, and that you do not need to fear death. If someone shares it with another person, it is because they care about them.

Christians are sinners, though. They can be arrogant, inconsiderate, and disrespectful, just like anyone else. They can be imperfect and wrong in some of the ways they try to share their beliefs. The Bible instructs us to share our faith with respect and humility, and if someone is disrespectful when they share with you, you should tell them so and point out their hypocrisy. But don't let the imperfection of Christians be a stumbling block for you on your path to know God.

I sincerely believe that everyone has sinned and has broken all of God's commandments. No one perfectly lives up even to their own moral standards, let alone God's. Because I hold my beliefs sincerely, it would be selfish and uncaring of me to not share with others my belief: that there is a solution to the problem, we can be freed from the trap of sin, we don't need to be trapped in it eternally and separated from God, but he can free us and we can know him and experience his love. I share it because it has saved my life, not only that I have been given eternal life in heaven, but because it has given me something to live for in this lifetime as well. Because it gives me love, hope, and peace; not only for myself, but for everyone. I believe it is the Truth, and that the Truth can set us free. To all who believe it, sharing it is an act of love.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

Dark Angel Rai

Savvy being understand.

And from what I've seen, most Christians are not for religious freedom. They are against. Either you're a Christian or you're not kinda thing. Either my way or the highway ya know? While most "worldly" religions could care less if you were a Hindu, a Jew, a Buddhist, a FSM worshipper, etc. They don't try and force people to convert and realize that you have free-will and can do what you want.

heehee, yeah, I've seen Pirates of the Caribbean, thanks. xp

What I'm not savvy to is how telling someone else about my Christian beliefs counts as "forcing" my beliefs on them. Forcing someone to convert means, "convert or I am going to do something bad to you." Do you know Christians who do that to you? If you do, you should notify the police or someone in authority, depending on how serious the threat is. If you don't, then you have not experienced someone "forcing" you to convert, you know?

I don't know of any Christian movements in America that are trying to take away other religions' freedom to worship. So, I don't know what you're referring to when you say that most Christians are not for religious freedom. When laws, policies, or other things are brought to the public to vote on, then Christians should vote their consciences on it, as should everyone; but that's just the way democracy works. It's not that anyone is forcing their beliefs on someone else, it's just that they are supporting and voting on their beliefs, as everyone is expected to do in a democracy.

Christians do share their faith with other people, it is a basic part of the religion. The reason Jesus and his disciples teach that we should share our faith, is because it is good news. It is good news to everyone who hears it and accepts it, that you do not need to pay the penalty for your sins, that you can have a personal relationship with God, and that you do not need to fear death. If someone shares it with another person, it is because they care about them.

Christians are sinners, though. They can be arrogant, inconsiderate, and disrespectful, just like anyone else. They can be imperfect and wrong in some of the ways they try to share their beliefs. The Bible instructs us to share our faith with respect and humility, and if someone is disrespectful when they share with you, you should tell them so and point out their hypocrisy. But don't let the imperfection of Christians be a stumbling block for you on your path to know God.

I sincerely believe that everyone has sinned and has broken all of God's commandments. No one perfectly lives up even to their own moral standards, let alone God's. Because I hold my beliefs sincerely, it would be selfish and uncaring of me to not share with others my belief: that there is a solution to the problem, we can be freed from the trap of sin, we don't need to be trapped in it eternally and separated from God, but he can free us and we can know him and experience his love. I share it because it has saved my life, not only that I have been given eternal life in heaven, but because it has given me something to live for in this lifetime as well. Because it gives me love, hope, and peace; not only for myself, but for everyone. I believe it is the Truth, and that the Truth can set us free. To all who believe it, sharing it is an act of love.

Have you forgotten the Moral Majority?


Christians are sinners yes. But most of them think they're sinless, making them look holier-than-thou.

And I know not all Christians are like that. Most of my friends that are Christian aren't like that.  

[Shinigami07]

Scazarith

John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righeous judgment."

I'm not starting an argument or anything but the bible does not condemn judgment; on the contrary it actually advocates it in some instances. Just remember that you'll also be judged.

The bible says homosexuality is wrong. I'm not attacking you or even saying that I don't like you. I'm just saying God has already made his judgment on the subject.

Homosexuality is wrong. What about the homosexuals? What if we don't practice? I have been struggling with accepting myself for a long time because of my beliefs.  

[Shinigami07]

AgentAbhorrence

I think that "Heathen" comment was very rude. And I agree with Pettos' comment on this.

But I do have something that puzzles me. Why is homosexuality a sin, if people are born like that. They do not choose to be homosexuals, and this is a bit devastating if they are Christian and they know that being a homosexual displeases their god that they love so much. A straight person just can't wake up one day and say "I'm gay/lesbian" because they know that society looks down upon it and they will receive harsh criticism, and they know that they really aren't homosexual. This same thing applies to homosexuals. They can't wake up one day and claim they are straight because they are not and they can't help it, even if it's against societal rules, they will be homosexual no matter what.

Oh, and please don't try to convince me that people are not born homosexual. You have no way of proving that... especially if you're heterosexual.

Hearing you say this made me very happy. It's what life's been like for a long time. A constant struggle between how I am with how I should be and what I believe. Can we be friends? ^_^  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Shinigami07

Scazarith

John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righeous judgment."

I'm not starting an argument or anything but the bible does not condemn judgment; on the contrary it actually advocates it in some instances. Just remember that you'll also be judged.

The bible says homosexuality is wrong. I'm not attacking you or even saying that I don't like you. I'm just saying God has already made his judgment on the subject.

Homosexuality is wrong. What about the homosexuals? What if we don't practice? I have been struggling with accepting myself for a long time because of my beliefs.

Try reading linaloki's info dump. biggrin It has some really helpful info.  

[Shinigami07]

-xXLady RaiXx-

Shinigami07

Scazarith

John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righeous judgment."

I'm not starting an argument or anything but the bible does not condemn judgment; on the contrary it actually advocates it in some instances. Just remember that you'll also be judged.

The bible says homosexuality is wrong. I'm not attacking you or even saying that I don't like you. I'm just saying God has already made his judgment on the subject.

Homosexuality is wrong. What about the homosexuals? What if we don't practice? I have been struggling with accepting myself for a long time because of my beliefs.

Try reading linaloki's info dump. biggrin It has some really helpful info.

Thank you ^_^ Sorry. I replied to posts thinking I caught this when it started but I was a few pages behind (my bad). I agree with what Crimson Racoon has to say. It's great having a good discussion on this subject though! How refreshing ^_^  

[davidrules1994]

Indoloro

Sini X

Only God can judge me.

♥

That's a ridiculous statement. I can judge you. In fact, I'm doing it right now. The relevancy of my judgment to your life is all subjective, but you can't claim that I am unable to judge.

You can judge but would that be doing as God says and loving everyone i have someone that goes to my school that is bisexual and hes cool to hang with at school theyre people too you know so you look upon the splinter in your bretherens eye but do not see the beam in thine own eye  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Shinigami07

Homosexuality is wrong. What about the homosexuals? What if we don't practice? I have been struggling with accepting myself for a long time because of my beliefs.

Well, really according to the Bible, there is no such thing as a homosexual person who doesn't practice. That would be akin to saying, "I'm a drunkard, but I don't drink." It just doesn't work that way.

The modern concept of a "homosexual" is an invention of recent decades. It's definition today, of someone who has a "sexual orientation" that they are born with and cannot resist or change without damanging themselves psyhcologically, has never existed in any previous society. (Obviously, either every society in the world previous to ours was very ignorant of their own natures, or else the modern concept is false).

So when anyone, as a Christian, considers themsevles to have homosexual temptations, I wouldn't be so quick to use the label of being a "homosexual." Remember, after all, that the Bible says homosexuals cannot enter heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). But if they are a Christian, then we do believe they are going to heaven; so how does that work?

The difference is in the definition. When the Bible says "homosexual," it means someone who actively pursues and practices the sin of homosexuality. Just as when it says "thief," it means someone who goes out and steals things. Have I ever been tempted to steal something? Of course, but I wouldn't consider myself to be a thief just because of that. Someone who resists the temptation of homosexuality is therefore not a homosexual, in the Biblical meaning of the word.

Remember that Christ was tempted while he was on earth, strongly. He was tempted in everything that we have ever been tempted by, including stealing and lusting; and that temptation of lust could well have sometimes been in a homosexual context! But he wasn't a theif or homosexual, because he never let those temptations take root as desires, and certainly not as actions. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." - Hebrews 4:15

This doesn't mean that any of us can be sinless. We will be sinners for all of our lives. But if we, as Christians, are struggling with and fighting a sin such as homosexuality, then we are not the same as a non-Christian who has no reason to avoid giving in to that temptation. God has given us a reason to resist it, and the ability to resist it, through his Spirit and Christ. And if we are resisting it, even if we are less than perfect at doing so, then it is a far cry from someone who is unashamed of their practicing homosexuality.

So in my belief, based on what the Bible teaches, there is no such thing as a non-practicing homosexual. They are just people who are tempted by a particular sin, as all of us have particular sins we are often tempted with.

The question that arises, of course, is what if someone who claims to be a Christian does practice homosexuality without resistance? Does that mean they must not really be a Christian? Well, the Bible certainly has strong words for anyone who claims to be a Christian but continues in their sinful ways. It certainly calls them to question the condition of their own heart and soul. Such a person needs to read the Bible, participate in a Bible-believing church, and pray. If they are truly a Christian and do these things regularly, they will be convicted to begin to resist their sinning. Of course, all Christians need to do these things regularly. We all have sins that we need to be reminded of and led to overcome.

Whatever sins we are tempted by, whatever sins we have committed in the past, we should not let those sins identify us. We shouldn't put them onto ourselves as labels. Because every time we fail and give into a sin, though it may stain us and hurt our relationship with God, we have a substitute who has taken our label for us, the label of "sinner." And because of him, we can confess and repent of that sin to turn back to God in his name. Ultimately, the only label and indentity we should apply to ourselves is that of Jesus Christ, as we live in his name.