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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:07 am
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:14 am
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patch99329 Am I missing the part where this became racism, and not just rude generalisations?
She could have reacted in two ways. The first would be to inform herself and understand the warning. The second, which is the one she chose to do, was to sally fourth and continue to indulge herself.
It's much the same way that when someone uses the G~ word, I tell them to knock it off, it's a slur. People who don't whip out their privilege-justifications are simply educated. Those who do justify their use have crossed the line from making an honest mistake into indulging their privilege- which in this case, is tied to culture and is commonly associated with the word race.
Quote: I'm starting to take issue with the way racism sometimes just seems to be used as a buzzword. I don't honestly believe that many people that get called on being racist, are racist at all, and if they are, they aren't demonstrating it within the conversation at least.
I don't need someone to burn a cross on a friends lawn to acknowledge that unearned privilege and the mistreatment of others is a detriment.
Quote: She made assumptions due to her lack of information. She shouldn't have done that, it causes problems...but was it because she was racist? I doubt it.
Oh- and then there is the culture rape she's indulging. But I already addressed that elsewhere. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:23 pm
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TeaDidikai Ishtar Shakti What would you consider appropriate That which is expected of me. Quote: and what do you consider your position? Faulty question. My position is assigned and not subject to my personal opinion. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:29 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:12 am
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maenad nuri patch99329 Am I missing the part where this became racism, and not just rude generalisations? I'm pretty sure it's both. Primarily the latter, since Tea did not say explicitly why her role is one that she does not interpret. But the assumption that was made also has roots is racist, even if it's not intentional.
Isn't there something implicit in racism that it has to be about race?
Is this statement just going to be ignored?
As to any implication of trolling. Just because I don't drop an issue when its raised does not mean I raised the issue to begin with. She has contradicted herself. Failed to cite. Ignored any inquiry as to prove citation. Insulted. Been fairly hypocritical. Fairly ethnocentric and made more assumptions then I really want to cite and keep track of.
I felt like calling her on it. My response to her was to point out where her own assumptions and culture and beliefs may distort her view and might possibly be causing her to jump to conclusions and asking her to be civil as I had been up until the point that she brought up racism.
I made a decision not to follow a certain set of reactions which would have preserved tranquility and instead decided not to be passive and not to take bull s**t when I don't have to. I refuse to let someone in what is supposed to be in a "rehab center" be abusive and ignorant of how they might not be God and I will point out that they Can't Know Everything and that Multiple Definitions Exist. Especially after she pulled the whole "your beliefs aren't golden cows" line.
And any sort of implication of RACISM is completely out of line.
Do I have to just like repeat the word ethnocentrism till someone looks up the definition and starts insulting me properly!!!
For ******** Sake
Cultural snobery maybe... and yet how can a person accuse someone else of ethnocentrism when they themselves are indulging in it? Isn't that a bit out of line.
I mean... rejecting the concept that a culture is a set of precepts which have developed over time. That people internalize external stimuli and form opinions on it and that its the basis of all experiences and definitions. I'm pretty sure thats the foundation of what is commonly referred to as knowledge. I'm pretty sure if you want to regress to a position of belief based of givens and socially accepted norms then This is one Major one!
To reject this... it really seems more like she has a problem with me *shrug*
As to whether or not I feel superior XD Sometimes you have to laugh in order not to cry?
Quote: 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
And I have to add there are Three definitions here... not one!
And thus I should also add
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
I don't know her heredity
2. a population so related.
I don't know her population
3. Anthropology.
I don't know her bone structure or DNA
a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
I don't know what division she would be a part of
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
Do I know any of these?
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
Again... knowledge would be necessary
4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
I don't know her ethnicity
5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
Perhaps under this definition and yet... I would have to know any of these in order to actually form hatred or intolerance of them. It also seems like a pretty big stretch to say that Hey... we're similar is really a form of racism.
6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
<3 this one
7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
I don't think she is part of a different sub species but then who knows?
8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.
I would definitely assume she was a living creature but I think she would tell me I was wrong again because I'm assuming things. This is an attempt at humor? Is it not funny? I Tried?
9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.
She's of the race of Gaians?
10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.
I'd have to taste her XD
So if your linking 3 and 5 I still don't think this would be considered racism.
Hatred or intolerance would have to be present. Also... how does this excuse the remark she made previously which was the entire basis of one of my remarks. I was telling her she was being Hypocritical which she was!
How is it excusable for One person to do something and then the other called racist?
Not to mention she has gone well through most of the practices of trolling! XD
What I said relies on definitions and studies which I have CITED!
I don't see how talking from within one's own personal framework could be considered anything other then
Ethnocentrism
Definition #2: a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
But then what other frame work are you supposed to view an alien culture from without any other reference to there culture you either use yours or you develop a new framework to incorporate the new data as you aquire it. This is mostly done at a touch and go basis.
Tea specifically said that
"My position is assigned and not subject to my personal opinion."
Which translates to
I assume this means that you are subservient to something as if it was given to you then whomever gave it to you is whomever you follow and thus serve. If something is expected of her that would imply that someone or something is expecting it of her. Unless she relies on internal expectations?
adjective
1. serving or acting in a subordinate capacity; subordinate.
While this can Also be interpreted as servile; excessively submissive; obsequious: subservient persons; subservient conduct.
And thus have some sort of other connotation then what she seemed to have implied through her statement... assuming a negative connotation without any negative contextual basis doesn't seem as justified as my implied usage.
And yet... somehow this is a borderline "racist remark" without any sort of negative qualifiers and without any sort of remarks of intolerance or hatred. Because it is impossible for me to work outside of my internal framework because I'm not omniscient and I view everything out of my eyes.
And saying that a person internalizes external stimuli I don't think would qualify as bashing a persons culture |
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:14 am
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:31 am
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Ok, I'm gonna start chiming in here.
Unlike Tea, I'm not going to be patient with you, nor am I going to lose my patience. I'm just going to bombard you with sense until some of it rubs off on you
However, I am not taking part in the "you are being racist" or "you are not being racist" discussion. I am trying to break through that wall of self-entitlement you appear to have erected around yourself.
Ishtar Shakti Isn't there something implicit in racism that it has to be about race?
Yes. And race means a lot more than you think it does.
The Irish race and the English race are different to each other, culturally, sociologically and traditionally.
There is, genetically speaking, only one race: the human race.
All other applications of the word derive their meaning from contexts.
It would appear to me that the context used in America is skin color. That is not the case for the rest of the world and it is not the case for the academic world. Race also refers to culture and ethnicity (as a pair-value or distinctly in their own right).
Ishtar Shakti Is this statement just going to be ignored?
This attitude is really starting to get to people, Ishtar.
You are not special here. Your personal word is meaningless until, through years of demonstration of your intellectual integrity, your word is shown to mean something. You have to earn respect here, not demand it (which it appears to me is what you have been expecting).
Your posts, while long and full of content, do not appear to have any genuine research supporting them. This is frustrating as it makes it appear that you are self-entitled and wilfully-ignorant.
Both of which get on pretty much everyone here's tits.
Ishtar Shakti Fairly ethnocentric and made more assumptions then I really want to cite and keep track of.
I have not seen the ethnocentricity on her part, however that may be for many reasons.
1) I could be rose tinting my glasses where it comes to her
2) I could be understanding her position better than yours
or (and I believe, personal biases outlined above, that this is the case)
3) You, and not she, are being ethnocentric and seeing all of her actions through filtered lenses
Ishtar Shakti My response to her was to point out where her own assumptions and culture and beliefs may distort her view and might possibly be causing her to jump to conclusions and asking her to be civil as I had been up until the point that she brought up racism.
You seem to be misconstruing "not overtly rude" with "civil".
When someone projects their cultural views on to my culture, I consider their behaviour to be rude and not at all civil. That is what it appears that you have been doing and you were warned that it bordered on racism. Rather than defend your position, or show that you had any academic understanding of the culture you're talking to, you merely attempted to turn it on its head.
This is a common tactic taken by proficient trolls.
We get trolled a lot.
Ishtar Shakti I refuse to let someone in what is supposed to be in a "rehab center" be abusive and ignorant of how they might not be God and I will point out that they Can't Know Everything and that Multiple Definitions Exist.
Those arguments are not really very good though.
Just because I can't know everything doesn't mean that I can't know more about something specific than you do.
Ishtar Shakti And any sort of implication of RACISM is completely out of line.
No. It's not.
Ishtar Shakti Do I have to just like repeat the word ethnocentrism till someone looks up the definition and starts insulting me properly!!!
Ah, but you're wrong.
Your attempt to intimate that racism doesn't cover ethnocentricity is inherently mistaken. It does.
So, if you would (in earnest) like someone to insult you properly, I have many many culturally ancient insults that I can throw your way, just don't blame me if your tongue blisters.
Ishtar Shakti Cultural snobery maybe... and yet how can a person accuse someone else of ethnocentrism when they themselves are indulging in it?
The difference between your position and Tea's is that she has stated what it is that is racist, in her opinion, about your position. You have just retorted with the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I"
Ishtar Shakti And I have to add there are Three definitions here... not one!
Rather than using the dictionary, perhaps you should be looking to sociological and psychological journal papers, as you seem to claim to do.
The dictionary definition is not valid in a discussion like this, as it is not nearly detailed enough.
Ishtar Shakti I don't know her heredity
So: you believe the statement "all white people are better than all other people" is not racist to blacks, because the person saying it doesn't know the heredity of others?
No.
Your position is being assumed to come from the position of entitlement granted to WASPs. "I am entitled to talk about this, because I'm a white american", which is racist regardless of what heredity the person you're talking to is.
Ishtar Shakti So if your linking 3 and 5 I still don't think this would be considered racism.
That's nice, but not particularly relevant.
Ishtar Shakti Hatred or intolerance would have to be present.
No. It would not.
Ishtar Shakti I was telling her she was being Hypocritical which she was!
You are not the arbiter of objective reality. I would take it as a kindness if you would refrain from using objective statements for subjective positions.
Ishtar Shakti What I said relies on definitions and studies which I have CITED!
None of what you have said here has supporting citation.
Ishtar Shakti I assume this means that you are subservient to something as if it was given to you then whomever gave it to you is whomever you follow and thus serve.
And if you had projected your cultural views onto my culture, I would have told you to refrain from projecting your cultural understandings onto my culture.
Ishtar Shakti If something is expected of her that would imply that someone or something is expecting it of her.
Yes, cultural expectations exist.
And your cultural view that in order to adhere to cultural expectations one needs to be subservient is highly offensive and does border on racism.
Ishtar Shakti Because it is impossible for me to work outside of my internal framework
I'm afraid I'm going to require a supporting citation for this, because it contradicts all cognitive learning studies I have read.
Quite frankly, IS, I don't believe you have done nearly as much research as you claim. Or you'd know all of this already.
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:55 pm
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