Pagan Manners

[Operation Shoestring]

14) sometimes food is part of a ritual. don't assume that because there's food, you're free to eat it.

15) Just say no to underage kiddies asking for instruction in tantrics.

(are additions being considered?)  

[Sivirs]

AyanamiRei

14) sometimes food is part of a ritual. don't assume that because there's food, you're free to eat it.

I don't know, there's a certain car wreck giddiness in watching someone casually pick at a pomegranate intended for an underworld rite and thinking "Ohmagawd are you gonna have an interesting night." wink  

[WebenBanu]

TeaDidikai

Couple problems with this.

1) Those who actually will change their position based on the facts I present don't need to see it in my sig. If it comes up, it will come up and things can move on from there.

2) Those who wouldn't change because they know what it means and hate the Rroma do not need me to make myself a target.

3) My sig is a place for my personal musings and is a form of self-expression. As I am not my ethnicity and have done as much to include parts of my culture into my Gaia name, I have no interest in being defined by my ethnicity. Would you ask Reagun to have a huge chuck of his siggy saying "American Born does not make you Irish!"?

OK, points taken.^_^

TeaDidikai

What personal insight to culture or ethnicity would you put in your sig? Or better- would you be willing to put in your sig what you are asking me to put there?

Whichever ones I felt were important for people to know. And yes, of course I would put it in there if it were as important to me as it seems to be to you.^_^ I view my sig as a place to put thoughts, values, and projects which are important to me in some way. If I were experiencing a similar plight, I'd put a tagline in my sig in a heartbeat- so long as it was important to me, then I'd consider it appropriate.

TeaDidikai

The problem I am seeing at the moment is that this kind of molly coddling does not belong to everyone's path.

I'm not talking about molly coddling so much as being a functional person in a world filled with other people. The guidelines that I have contributed so far really haven't been about people's religious paths. There weren't any religious dictates in them- it's all about how to function in a group, and technically it'd apply to any situation in the religious or secular world. Just switch "ritual" for any other (legal) event as needed, and the principles remain the same.

TeaDidikai

The more it is debated, the more I feel like likening it to those who believe that the Wiccan Rede is universal, and I think it is fair to say that not everyone is bound by the guidelines suggested- that some people would hold that being polite for the sake of protecting people's feelings and "not rocking the boat" is worse than the natural course that such a discussion would take otherwise.

I'm not advocating being polite for the sake of protecting people's feelings- I'm advocating being polite for the sake of being an effective person and a functional member of society. Seriously, Tea- these are manners. Do you really expect me to say that it's good manners to be rude or spiteful?^_^'

Those who feel that they truly need to be rude and/or socially counterproductive in order to act out their faith will, of course, have no use for a guideline on manners- Pagan or otherwise. I am taking it for granted that people who read this thread will be interested in showing consideration for others or at least in working with other people within the Pagan community. I'm not interested in going on a crusade to shove it down anyone's throat. That just takes way too much effort, you know?^_~

TeaDidikai

"The Community" doesn't need to be united and I feel that Fluffies who are offended at a random Asatru's correction about the age of Wicca have earned any stress that comes into their life based upon their false assertions and said (sometimes blunt) correction.

For one thing, the Pagan community already exists- by virtue of the fact that there are groups of Pagan people who are interacting with one another. I'm not trying to unite them, I'm addressing a social situation which is already quite real. There are various cultural groups within that community, of course. Which of those communities you're participating in will color your expectations of the folks with whom you're interacting, however since this was a set of "Pagan" manners, I'm not getting very specific as to what one should do if one is Asatru, or Kemetic, or Rroma, or whatever. I'm proposing some very basic guidelines for generic gatherings.

Furthermore, I have never said that it is not OK to issue corrections- I believe that I have stated that they are helpful when done in an appropriate context and that, as a matter of good manners, people should be researching these things anyway. You seem to be assuming that either I or the people of this guild are saying that public education is bad- which is odd considering the guild that we're all in.^_^' The guidelines that I have proposed simply request that such things be done politely- it is possible, and it's much more effective when it's done that way.

TeaDidikai

And that condemning the Asatru for making said Fluffy upset is more of an insult to "The Community" then is services by them taking another tact because they might offend someone (be it the Fluffy, the non-Fluffy Friend of said Fluffy- or anyone else).

Actually, I've already said that condemning someone for lashing out is not helpful. And the Asatru in your example could very well have been in perfect agreement with the guidelines, to begin with- I don't believe that we specified that he or she shared that information in a rude manner, after all.

These are guidelines for folks who are looking for ways to interact with other Pagans in a constructive way, and they do just that. It does not matter what your religion is, as these are not religious guidelines. Anyone can follow them, so long as your religious affiliation does not require you to insult people. If it does, then you won't really find any set of social guidelines which will help you to get along with other people, as not being rude is kind of basic to these sorts of things.^_^'

But I'm fairly certain that being polite or handling situations in a mature fashion does not make me less of an educated, dedicated Pagan, and I'm confident that it's a safe approach for other Pagans to take as well.^_^ Believe it or not, I've actually met Asatru who were capable of telling FBs exactly where they screwed up in a perfectly civil manner.

However, I think that I see where you're going with this, and it would be a good idea to include an extension of one of the guidelines already in existence:

Proposed addition to #11

11b- If you do decide to attend a cross-cultural/traditional ritual, familiarize yourself with the expectations of that culture before you show up- ask the person who invited you or the group hosting the event if you've no idea where to start looking. If you are not able to familiarize yourself with those expectations in any other way than direct experience, expect a crash course when you get there! And remember, the lessons may be harsh!

And while we're at it, I propose that we add:

Possible further additions?

14a. Remember that it's rude to point out the fact that other people are being rude. If the people around you aren't abiding by this code of conduct, remember that it was your decision to adopt it- hopefully because you felt that the principles contained within were appropriate or wise ways of interacting with the rest of the world. There will always be times with the folks around you don't agree with your idea of ettiquette, however- and adverse situations are the true test of any personal ethical system.^_~

14b. If you feel that someone is taking an unhelpful attitude toward you, it's even more important to remain calm and polite back to them- doing otherwise will only make the situation worse, while being polite may even help to soothe the other person's anger so that you can have a more productive exchange.

14c. If they're just insulting you, however, and not imparting any information to explain their anger, then it's usually best to discretely ignore them and limit your contact with them as much as possible- their attitude will reflect more poorly on them for any who are watching, and your mature handling of the situation will reflect well on you.

 

[WebenBanu]

Starlock

Not a bad revision, though a bit long winded. Though its true I simplified every point on that list from their original forms which were more along the length of these up here. All of that sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Heh, and it looks like I'm not doing any better of a job on keeping them from being long winded even now- but I just can't seem to think of a more succinct way of writing them.^_^ Etiquette appears to be one of those things where, if you understand it, it seems pretty simple (as a concept, though not always simple in practice)- but if you're trying to actually explain it, it doesn't usually break down to a clean, catchy phrase without losing a lot of the feeling behind it.^_^'

Or maybe I'm just bad at writing guidelines.^_^ Anyone want to take a stab at distilling my wordiness?  

[WebenBanu]

Sivirs

AyanamiRei

14) sometimes food is part of a ritual. don't assume that because there's food, you're free to eat it.

I don't know, there's a certain car wreck giddiness in watching someone casually pick at a pomegranate intended for an underworld rite and thinking "Ohmagawd are you gonna have an interesting night." wink

ROFLOL! That's awesome.^_^  

[TeaDidikai]

WebenBanu

I'm not talking about molly coddling so much as being a functional member of a rather diverse society, and this really isn't about religion. There weren't any religious dictates in my guidelines above- it's all about how to function in a group, and technically it'd apply to any situation in the religious or secular world. Just switch "ritual" for any other (legal) event as needed.

I think part of the problem is that there is a fundamental difference between a Scene and a Community. Paganism is a Scene made up of numerous communities.

Pagan Unity is as absurd as Feminine Unity. The idea that one characteristic is the foundation of a unifying factor and thus demands a certain code of conduct towards members of said group isn't a sound psychological or sociological principle.

Quote:

I'm not advocating being polite for the sake of protecting people's feelings- I'm advocating being polite for the sake of being a functional member of society. Seriously, Tea- these are manners. You can't really expect me to say that it's good manners to be rude or spiteful?^_^'

Ah, but what I am trying to express is that manners are not universal. Look at belching. The US considers it impolite, in parts of Europe, it is insulting not to belch after a good meal.

What I am suggesting is that the Pagan scene is so diverse, that to foist manners that contradict another's ethnics upon a subsect of the pagan scene at the cost of their participation isn't on.

That it creates artificial exclusion based upon a small group's idea of what is good and what is bad rather than allowing people to weigh the value of a given person's participation in the scene to sway the scene itself.

Quote:

For one thing, "the Community" already exists- by virtue of the fact that there are people with similar interests who interact with one another. Which community you're participating in will color your expectations of the folks with whom you're interacting, however since this was a set of "Pagan" manners, I'm not getting very specific as to what sort of Pagan community it is. I'm posting general guidelines for interaction in any of them.

Fair enough. But the problem I mentioned above still arises when different communities within the scene come together.

Quote:

Furthermore, I have never said that it is not OK to issue corrections- you seem to be assuming this, and then getting upset about something which hasn't even been stated. I've only requested that such things be done politely- it is, in fact, possible.

No one's upset Hun. This is all fun and games for me. mrgreen

Quote:

Actually, I've already said that condemning someone for lashing out is not helpful. These are guidelines for folks who are looking for ways to interact with other Pagans in a constructive way, and they do just that. It does not matter what your religion is, as these are not religious guidelines.

Anyone can follow them, so long as your religious affiliation does not require you to insult people. If it does, then you won't really find any set of social guidelines which will help you to get along with other people, as not being rude is kind of basic to these sorts of things.^_^' But I don't think that being polite or handling situations in a mature fashion makes me less of a recon, and I'm pretty sure that it's a safe approach for other Pagans to take as well.^_^ And believe it or not, I've actually met Asatru who were capable of telling FBs exactly where they screwed up in a perfectly civil manner.

No doubt. Most of the Asatru I know are that way. I was just using a friend I have in mind as an example. wink

I may not be explaining my position well.

I like your additions, but the problem I am having is the artificial nature of such a system because the construction of which divides people in an unnatural way. The kind of sociological experiments I have seen tied to such things have a strong pattern of turning those who adopt and uphold such codes (artificial guidelines for behavior) within a conflicted social scene usually end up with a group of extremists that become more arsehats who justify their position based upon the platform afforded by said rules, no matter the precautions set up in devising the rules- and it leaves the otherwise reasonable individuals who disagree with one or two small points Black Listed.  

[WebenBanu]

I don't have time to give this a proper response today, but there is one subject that you've brought up which has really confused me. It seems to be a core issue here, as well, so I'm thinking that it would be a good idea to clarify it before we move on.

What is "Pagan Unity"? Why do you feel that this subject pushes it? And why is it ultimately bad for Pagans?

Once I understand this better, perhaps we'll make some progress.^_^  

[Starlock]

WebenBanu

What is "Pagan Unity"? Why do you feel that this subject pushes it? And why is it ultimately bad for Pagans?

Once I understand this better, perhaps we'll make some progress.^_^

I think this shouldn't even BE an issue based on what you said earlier. As put forth, these expectations are mostly universal for society as a whole, not just Neopagans or whatever group you decide to stick in the title. Unless you're a lifetime hermit, you've got use for this kind of stuff no matter who you are and that's that. The unity is in that we're all human and we all have to deal with each other at some point. I'm really not sure how manners pushes "Pagan Unity" either.  

[saint dreya]

WebenBanu

What is "Pagan Unity"? Why do you feel that this subject pushes it? And why is it ultimately bad for Pagans?

the word pagan is used so widely that what one might consider pagan in one's sense might smack another in the face. since there's such a farflung population that considers itself pagan, with different values and morals, it's a good chance that the manners would also be different.

hypothetically speaking, in a pagan setting, someone who has devoted themselves to a deity that has a certain taboo and someone, unknowing of that taboo or devotion, may mistakenly offer something or say something offensive to that taboo. poor example, i know, but it's all i could come up with right now.

people in general are so hard to define manners to, as Tea pointed out with belching. taking a naturally unorganized population and then handing them a bunch of guidelines might not be the best idea.

pagan unity, unfortunately, won't really amount to much until the definition of pagan is completely dissected and specifically laid out. there are too many exceptions as it stands now, for any to come together and say 'this is what we believe' without having some minor conflict because someone who defines themself as pagan doesn't meet those standards of belief.  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

WebenBanu

What is "Pagan Unity"? Why do you feel that this subject pushes it? And why is it ultimately bad for Pagans?

Once I understand this better, perhaps we'll make some progress.^_^

I think this shouldn't even BE an issue based on what you said earlier. As put forth, these expectations are mostly universal for society as a whole, not just Neopagans or whatever group you decide to stick in the title. Unless you're a lifetime hermit, you've got use for this kind of stuff no matter who you are and that's that. The unity is in that we're all human and we all have to deal with each other at some point. I'm really not sure how manners pushes "Pagan Unity" either.

And this is what I disagree with.

1) Not everyone is able to play by the rules it takes to work the system you have set out.

2) Not everyone is willing. And this Moral-Manner's Superiority creates more rifts than it heals due to the mass population of individualists in the Pagan scene.

In short- these manners, while lovely, create one more thing for people to fight over. People who would naturally follow them will follow them without having a list. People who wouldn't for whatever reason- now have one more strike against them.  

[Starlock]

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs). There will always be people who make excuses (justified or otherwise) as to why THEY are above basic manners or exceptions to the rules. Debating over that point has little value. It's as well an opinion that such guidelines create more problems than they solve. Just ask yourself how we'd do in the world if there were no laws.  

[CuAnnan]

Starlock

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs).

That is the worst apology ever.  

[saint dreya]

Starlock

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs). There will always be people who make excuses (justified or otherwise) as to why THEY are above basic manners or exceptions to the rules. Debating over that point has little value. It's as well an opinion that such guidelines create more problems than they solve. Just ask yourself how we'd do in the world if there were no laws.

the law bit really has no place. laws and morals are pretty seperate from each other. the constitution allows me to practice whatever religion i deem worthy (provided it does not infringe on another's rights), while another person will see it as an affront and attempt to convert me (not picking on anyone specifically).  

[WebenBanu]

I'm reposting our set of guidelines so far, because it's becoming difficult for me to refer back through the thread at the original and the revisions so far.

I added a bit to one of Rei's suggestions, which I feel clarifies it. Rei, could you please check number 15 and make sure that it meets with your approval?

I expanded on number 13, because I came up with visions of someone trying to add a "dose of good humor" to a very serious ritual moment.^_^' Hopefully this adjustment will help clarify the appropriate context for humor. Do you guys feel that the addition is a good one? Any other ideas?^_^

I also tweaked number 3 a bit, to include Pagan systems which cast circles but don't use the technique of "cutting doors," and those which use something similar but call it by a different name.

Our proposed guidelines so far

1 ) Never assume that just because you are invited to a non-public ritual that your friend is too. ASK!

2 ) When participating in a ritual lead by a group which you're not a member, ASK them what will be done instead of assuming. Ask if you need to bring anything ro dress in a certain way. If something about it bothers you, quietly do not participate.

3 ) Never just walk out of a cast circle! If you must leave, ask someone about the proper procedure for leaving ritual space (e.g. cutting a door, performing certain purifications, meditations, visualizations, etc.- customs are varied, so it's always a good idea to discretely ask someone!).

4 ) Don't comment about the ritual, its leaders, or its quality unless asked. Save it for after the ritual is over and privately; don't be a spreader of gossip.

5 ) Be sure to consider dietary needs: if you're vegetarian or will be hosting vegetarians, make sure to plan dishes to meet those needs.

6 ) It is never, EVER permissible to 'blow someone's cover' by talking about someone's membership in a Pagan group. While some people are out of the broom closet, some people prefer their secrecy.

7 ) If you drink or take drugs personally, it is your own personal buisiness. Do not urge others to do so at gatherings.

8 ) Just because most Pagans are under 40 and mobile, not all of them are. Have rituals take place, where public, in accesible areas with plenty of places to sit down.

9 ) Be mindful of those around your ritual area who aren't Pagan, especially at night hours. Keep noise levels low at such times and be polite.

10) Do not allow yourself to get the idea that you know the One True, Right and Only Path! If you don't like it, don't do it... it is not acceptable to say someone 'shouldn't be doing things a certain way (exception being if it is against the law).

11a) If you can't stand the slightest deviation from your own tradition, don't take part in cross-cultural rituals or gatherings.

11b) If you do decide to attend a cross-cultural/traditional ritual, familiarize yourself with the expectations of that culture before you show up- ask the person who invited you or the group hosting the event if you've no idea where to start looking. If you are not able to familiarize yourself with those expectations in any other way than direct experience, expect a crash course when you get there! And remember, the lessons may be harsh!

12a) Be honest about your lineage- both the religious and ethnic kinds. If you believe that you are something, then do some research to see if you really do fit the description. If not, find another term which fits or create your own.

12b) Be polite when questioning other members of the Pagan Community on their lineage or practices, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt- young or old, they may still be learning! If it's appropriate to your relationship with the person and the situation you find yourself in, a friendly point in the right direction may be helpful- but refrain from preaching at people.

12c) If you don't believe that a person has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, then you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions. But causing a scene in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right- and if anything, it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!

13) Add a dose of good humor! If you can interpret something in a humerous or benign fashion, that will better allow you to either adapt to your surroundings or make a dignified exit than taking personal offense.

14) Sometimes food is part of a ritual. Don't assume that because there's food, you're free to eat it.

15) Just say no to underage kiddies asking for instruction in tantrics. Please respect parents' rights to decide the nature of appropriate instruction for their children, unless you have reason to believe that their approach to teaching is indeed harmful to the child. If you believe that it is, then take it up with the proper authorities.

16a) Remember that it's rude to point out the fact that other people are being rude. If the people around you aren't abiding by this code of conduct, remember that it was your decision to adopt it- hopefully because you felt that the principles contained within were appropriate or wise ways of interacting with the rest of the world. There will always be times with the folks around you don't agree with your idea of ettiquette, however- and adverse situations are the true test of any personal ethical system.^_~

16b) If you feel that someone is taking an unhelpful attitude toward you, it's even more important to remain calm and polite back to them- doing otherwise will only make the situation worse, while being polite may even help to soothe the other person's anger so that you can have a more productive exchange.

16c) If they're just insulting you, however, and not imparting any information to explain their anger, then it's usually best to discretely ignore them and limit your contact with them as much as possible- their attitude will reflect more poorly on them for any who are watching, and your mature handling of the situation will reflect well on you.

Source Credits:
-- "Pagan Manners -or- Are There Any Dead Animals in The Soup?" by Grey Cat
-- "Pagan/Craft Etiquette" by Soapbox Sam with additional ideas from Merlin the Enchanter and Beket Aser Edithsdatter
-- The members of the Pagan Fluffy Rehabilitation Center Guild, Gaia

 

[WebenBanu]

phoenix_shadowwolf

the word pagan is used so widely that what one might consider pagan in one's sense might smack another in the face. since there's such a farflung population that considers itself pagan, with different values and morals, it's a good chance that the manners would also be different.

That's why several of the guidelines include learning about the various different Pagan cultures and what is appropriate for them, before either claiming to be one or interacting with members of that group. We haven't really given many absolutes ("do this, don't do that") here for the reason that the community is diverse- the guidelines are mostly things like, "don't do this without asking first." There is one which specifies things like, "Don't leave a cast circle without asking someone to cut you a door first," for example. Not all Pagan groups cast circles, but those that do generally do so for a reason and most of them will be very upset if you just barge through their barrier without asking. Asking one of the "natives" to cut you a door will give them the opportunity to either tell you that it's OK just to leave, cut said door for you, or educate you on other protocols for leaving ritual space. We could make that even more open by replacing "asking someone to cut you a door" with "asking someone about the proper procedure for leaving sacred space." I'll go make that change.^_^

Overall, however, I think that we're working to make guidelines of two types- one set which are not proclamations that you absolutely should or shouldn't do something, but rather advise that such-and-such situation is a potentially sensitive issue, and you should ask first before performing certain actions. The reason is that in some groups, the things being listed are considered to be very, very rude. And in other groups they might be perfectly fine, but there's never any harm in asking. Asking will let you know whether this is one of those groups where the described action is OK, or if it's one of the ones where it would have landed you in trouble. The other set is pretty much universal for human social groups. This one's more touchy, which is why we're keeping it basic and asking for help. Most of the guidelines that I see in there so far are along the lines of not throwing a public tantrum when you don't get your way. I'm waiting for examples which would show me that this is too restrictive.

If any of the guidelines written specifically violate someone's Pagan culture, then we are hoping that they will come forward and bring it to our attention. So far, however, we've had two proposed examples. One was an Asatruar correcting a misinformed Wiccan and offending her. And I responded by saying that this situation is not necessarily against the guidelines, as it's perfectly possible to give such corrections politely (and some people will still be upset about polite corrections, but there's nothing you can do about that if you really have been polite- except to keep being polite!^_^), it's mentioned in the guidelines that such shared information is fine so long as the situation is appropriate for it, and I've known Asatruars who have demonstrated this quite well. Tea agreed that she knew some, too, and so this example seems to be resolved unless someone else can come up with another situation.

The second example was an Eskimo belching after a meal. As I explained, this falls under the heading of learning about your host's culture before attending an event. If I were to go to an Eskimo banquet, I should belch. If an Eskimo were to go to an English dinner party, s/he should not. If I am following the guidelines as set forth so far in this thread, however, I should not chastise the Eskimo for belching- since it's rude to point out where other people are being rude. Besides, the Eskimo might not know that belching is inappropriate in another culture (especially if he/she has not adopted our guidelines, and it didn't occur to him or her to learn about the host's culture!^_~)- I share this information with him or her, politely, and then we could both have a more enjoyable dinner party experience for the rest of the night, and any future occasions.

However, if I had not adopted this set of guidelines, or had not adopted them in their entirety, then I might very well be insulted and angry with the Eskimo for belching at my party in front of the other guests! Granted that this would not be the most helpful means of addressing the problem, but it wouldn't be an unthinkable outcome for someone who did not know their host's culture and crossed such a line without thinking. This is why that guideline about learning about your host's culture is in there.

phoenix_shadowwolf

hypothetically speaking, in a pagan setting, someone who has devoted themselves to a deity that has a certain taboo and someone, unknowing of that taboo or devotion, may mistakenly offer something or say something offensive to that taboo. poor example, i know, but it's all i could come up with right now.

For my tradition that's a very big deal, so I tend to agree that it's a major consideration.^_^ It is covered under section 11b (know your host's culture/traditions) in the case where another person's deity is concerned, and 12a (know about the cultures/traditions associated with a label if you intend to use it) when it's your own deity. Due to a misspelling, it was almost also included under section 5 (be aware of deitary needs- which was meant to read "dietary needs"^_~). It may merit it's own number, however, since what's in there right now tends to reflect being polite to humans, not to deities. But so far, I've refrained from including any sort of religious directives in the guidelines because I don't want them to be interpretted as spiritual instructions, and I'm wary of branching off in that direction now. So I think that it'd be best to stick to what we have now.

phoenix_shadowwolf

people in general are so hard to define manners to, as Tea pointed out with belching. taking a naturally unorganized population and then handing them a bunch of guidelines might not be the best idea.

I think that these sorts of issues are handled well under the guidelines which advise learning a group's culture and customs before interacting with them- we're mostly interested in identifying potential red flags, and in general guidelines for human social behavior. Don't worry, offering a set of guidelines to those who want it won't destroy the diversity of Pagan culture. Rather, they are simply there for people who want to use them to locate potential landmines while exploring that diversity. Manners aren't just for homogenous groups- in fact, if everyone was the same then there wouldn't be any point in writing up such guidelines. Things like this are meant for diverse groups, so it doesn't make any sense to say that we can't do it because it is a diverse group.

phoenix_shadowwolf

pagan unity, unfortunately, won't really amount to much until the definition of pagan is completely dissected and specifically laid out. there are too many exceptions as it stands now, for any to come together and say 'this is what we believe' without having some minor conflict because someone who defines themself as pagan doesn't meet those standards of belief.

That's part of the reason why I want to find out what Tea meant by "Pagan Unity"- it seems to be the source of her underlying complaint, and I can't address it until she tells me what it is. Honestly, I'm really not sure what might be inferred by this term- the Pagan community is by necessity diverse. The community exists by nature of the fact that Pagans interact with one another through various social centers and support groups, but I don't see how one woud go about drawing it any closer together than it already is- or why one would really need or want to do so. confused But I'll need Tea's response before I can do anything else with our conversation, because whatever it is, it seems to be the foundation of her argument.

We're just talking about how one could best go about being a civil human being within that Pagan community.^_^' And I'm honestly at a loss as to how someone could be offended by someone else being polite, lol! I'm looking forward to some examples of how the guidelines as written would be oppressive to Pagan cultures, and/or an explanation of what was meant by the term "Pagan Unity."