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 Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:18 pm
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Reformed Baptist The point I'm making is that people who are wicked produce nothing but wickedness. The wicked produce no good fruit. This whole discussion between me and promised_child (which everyone wants to jump in) is about everyone by their own will and sin nature cannot do good.
People are sinners by nature, which means that they are not "good"(good in the complete, whole, unadulterated sense). I'm not arguing with that. However, it makes very little sense to say that just because someone is flawed means that there can be no good in their deeds. I know a young man who used to be a renter and a junkie. He recently joined the UNV to help children with AIDS. Yes, he is flawed. Does that mean that him helping the unfortunate is any less of a good thing to do?
According to your logic, nothing anyone can do is going to be good. So why bother? Why help people, Wwhy show random acts of kindness, why give to charity if it's all inherently wicked?
And excuse me for "jumping in," but this is a public forum. If you want to keep it just between the two of you, you should take it to PMs. |
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:01 pm
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Reformed Baptist CCubed Respectfully, are you lutheran? Are you telling me that taking in a dying puppy and saving it and giving it a warm bed, food, and water is not good? That because of the fall we are incapable of good? There are many times in the bible where someone is praised for their good deeds. The doctrine of total depravity, however does not teach that man is as wicked as he could possibly be. For example, Adolf Hitler, who often serves as the paradigm of human evil, surely had some behavioral patterns that were not utterly base. Perhaps Hitler loved his mother and at times was even kind to her. Total depravity refers to the effect of sin and corruption on the whole person. To be totally depraved is to suffer from corruption that pervades the whole person. Sin affects every aspect of our being: the body, the soul, the mind, the will, and so forth. The total or whole person is corrupted by sin. No vestigial "island of righteousness" escapes the influence of the fall. Jesus frequently described this condition with images drawn from nature. Just as a corrupt tree yields corrupt fruit, so sin flows out of a corrupt human nature. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. Since the fall human nature has been corrupt. We are born with a sin nature. Our acts of sin flow out of this corrupted nature. The Apostle Paul, citing the Old Testament, summarizes the universal condition of sin: Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”“Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” CCubed In fact, John is called the "Loving Disciple." Are you saying that Loving is bad? Jesus died so we can enter heaven, we are capable of good, because when the thief asked him to remember him when he entered his heaven, he praised the thief's repentence and brought him into heaven. Now, I never said that the born again Christian were not capable of doing good. We Christians have been freed from the bondage of sin, counted as righteous, capable of doing good and having the ability to please God.
Rom.3
[1]
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
[2] Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.
[3] What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?
[4] By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, "That thou mayest be justified in thy words,
and prevail when thou art judged."
[5] But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
[6] By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
[7] But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
[8] And why not do evil that good may come? -- as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
[9]
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
[10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands, no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong;
no one does good, not even one."
[13] "Their throat is an open grave,
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
[14] "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
[15] "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
[16] in their paths are ruin and misery,
[17] and the way of peace they do not know."
[18] "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
[19]
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
[20] For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
[21]
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it,
[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[25] whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
[26] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
[27]
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
[29] Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
[30] since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
[31] Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
That is the entirety of Romans 3. You took out part of the book and used it as you wished, however you have used it and totally choose to forget the rest of it. You cannot take parts of a story and understand it as you cannot take parts of the bible and understand them. This book doesn't say that man is incapable of good, it would be a contradiction if it did. We were made in God's image, if God is the greatest good, we too must be capable of good. If you knew what Paul was talking about, you wouldn't have used this passage. Paul was telling the Romans two things:
A) You cannot justify yourselves by the law
B) The unfaithfullness of some Catholic's doesn't mean that all Catholic's are evil
C) God is in the end always truth even if every man speaks wrong
D) When he says as it is written, He's refering to the israelites when Moses received the commandants and they created idols and returned to the old ways. He is alluring to the fact that the Romans are acting the same way. Also, if you read Romans 1 and 2 you'll understand he's talking about the sins of Rome and no one else. AS it says in Romans 1:19 -27:
[19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
[20] Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;
[21] for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
[22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
[23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
[24]
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
[25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
[26]
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
[27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
Once more he is talking about the Israelites and alluring to the Romans being like them. Note not all Romans were like this as he says in Romans 1:8:
[8]
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. |
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:12 am
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:20 pm
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:32 pm
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:52 pm
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LRD_nick thrashmetaljunkie my ex was wiccan... she wanted to be christian, so i helped her out... without telling me she went back, which is my fault cuz i didnt stay with the religion myself, i got all out of whack... and now i cant bring her back... i guess you could say misguided... but all in all, witchraft is wrong, regardless if it is for good or evil. i loved her... a lot. but she disses christianity now... meh, i screwed that one up sooooo bad.... misguided is my view though. We helped her... and she did turn on both of us... |
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:11 pm
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:21 am
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:25 am
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thrashmetaljunkie ... then explain why everyday something tells me i effed it up... it goes back to the whole thing with when 2 people seek God, they come closer together, if they seek each other, they'll fall apart. i went after her, not God, and she was trying to seek God. anyways, this is a debate thread, not share your screw ups...
When I was 8, I thought my cousins death was MY fault. I had this thought that if I had been there to protect her, she wouldnt have been murdered. I carried this thought until I was 18, when I finally told a Godly woman who is a dear friend of mine and God healed me through her. That voice was still there though, but now I know who it is. it is the Decever the Accuser of the Brethren. the Father of Lies is the one telling you that you effed up.
Romans 8: 1-3
Quote: Life Through the Spirit 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] |
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:24 pm
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:35 pm
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CCubed That is the entirety of Romans 3. You took out part of the book and used it as you wished, however you have used it and totally choose to forget the rest of it. You cannot take parts of a story and understand it as you cannot take parts of the bible and understand them. This book doesn't say that man is incapable of good, it would be a contradiction if it did. We were made in God's image, if God is the greatest good, we too must be capable of good. If you knew what Paul was talking about, you wouldn't have used this passage. Paul was telling the Romans two things:
Are you blind?? Read verse 12. "All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." I know the purpose of Romans 3 is, that no one is righteous and righteousness of God through faith. Yet you claim that mankind is capable of good. Now thats a contradiction.
SinfulGuillotine People are sinners by nature, which means that they are not "good"(good in the complete, whole, unadulterated sense). I'm not arguing with that. However, it makes very little sense to say that just because someone is flawed means that there can be no good in their deeds. I know a young man who used to be a renter and a junkie. He recently joined the UNV to help children with AIDS. Yes, he is flawed. Does that mean that him helping the unfortunate is any less of a good thing to do? According to your logic, nothing anyone can do is going to be good. So why bother? Why help people, Wwhy show random acts of kindness, why give to charity if it's all inherently wicked?
I believe that God moves the wicked (according to His will) to do good deeds for certain purposes. I believe it's a work from the God alone rather than from the wicked. As a Christian, its God's will to do good deeds for the wicked. To ask me what is the purpose then that would be impossible answer because I do not have that knowledge. |
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:48 pm
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:01 pm
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SinfulGuillotine Reformed Baptist I believe that God moves the wicked (according to His will) to do good deeds for certain purposes. I believe it's a work from the God alone rather than from the wicked. As a Christian, its God's will to do good deeds for the wicked. To ask me what is the purpose then that would be impossible answer because I do not have that knowledge. If God moves one to do the good deed, then the deed is good, is it not? We're going in circles. I'm saying that although people are not "good" in the complete sense of the word, they are still capable of doing good deeds. Now you seem to be agreeing with me, but a page ago, you told me that you disagreed with me, so I'm a little lost.
This is what I been trying to say.
1. Man (meaning mankind) has no ability to do a good deed by their own "freewill" alone.
2. God can move the wicked according to His sovereign will. Creating a good deed through the wicked for His purpose and glory.
Simply, the wicked cannot do good by their own will (or effort). |
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:30 pm
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:58 am
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