On the Quality and Intention of Words

[kage no neko]

Bastemhet

No one is trying to make anyone feel guilty for being white, or for being any race. If by "that stuff" you mean oppression of people of color by the dominant group of whites, then it is still alive and well. The concept of owning your privilege is not that you personally owe someone else something, but that you are benefiting from the oppression of other people. The first article I cited above to Beorc is a really good detailed illustration of many things that white people take for granted that are privileges that people of color cannot always expect. The second link is a list of other "privilege lists," because being white in this society is not the only highly valued trait. Being a man, being straight, being cis, being able bodied, among other things, are all things that if people deviate from can be an entirely different experience, often oppressed, in danger, silenced, robbed of autonomy, of basic human rights, etc.

When I was younger, I moved with my dad to an apartment complex. We were the only family there that wasn't black. I didn't see a problem with this, since before we moved there one of my best friends was black. But apparently they had a problem with us being there, they did not like us. Everyone there was constantly mean to me, I even got jumped.. simply because they did not like me because of my skin tone. For the longest time after that, I hated black people because they were black. And I feared them, that they might hurt me again. Until high school, I held these thoughts. I ended up going to a mostly black school, but everyone there was nice to me. There was no racial hatred there. It really helped me feel better about other people, and taught me to not hold something silly like that against anyone.

I don't understand the whole racial situation, why it's so important. I've seen people of all colors be shitty people, as well as wonderful people. I don't see how I've ever gotten privilege because of my race, especially when it's been used against me.. when people look at me with hatred because of something like that.

I also understand that just because I don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think it's usually one sided though, that BECAUSE someone "has the privilege" it's used against them. Like that it appears a woman can hit a man, but it's a terrible crime for him to even hit her back.

I don't agree with it, and I don't really understand it.. and I don't see why any of it matters, race gender or whatnot. It's silly and it'd really be great if people could just get over it.  

[Bastemhet]

Brass Bell Doll

Bastemhet

I'm very much agreed on this and think they're good points, especially how language frames how we see the world.

Thank you.

Bastemhet

Part of the problem of this individualism is that it assumes all people are automatically considered individuals. Here's an example of how that's bunk: if a white woman has a child out of wedlock with no present father, she's seen as a white woman who has a child out of wedlock with no present father. If you change the same situation to it being a black woman, she ends up being just another example of pathological behavior and a dysfunctional family that is symbolic of social problems in the black community. Case in point? Sarah Palin's daughter's baby-daddy drama.

I'm sorry. I don't feel I quite got this, but I would like to see if I am close.

Are you saying that the pattern of people arguing for individualism and against censorship when it comes to political correctness are thinking that their personal views of how other people think and feel aren't always respected which leads to their intention being lost when it is wrapped in stereotypes?

I'm saying that American culture has it's own social myths. One of which is that if you work hard, you can achieve anything. What this ignores is personal and institutionalized racism and oppression that have ongoing effects on how people of color are seen and evaluated, which in turn can either damage their prospects when trying to achieve the same things as whites, or completely eliminate them. e.g. Only 8% of CFO's in Fortune 500 companies are women, and only 3% are minorities. (source)

This society also values individualism and being "self-made," the myth of the American cowboy. This assumes that all people will be judged on their individual actions, and judged as individuals, rather than judged as part of the overarching ethnicity of "those Asians" or "those blacks." My example with Sarah Palin's daughter is that you don't hear anyone saying that her baby-daddy issues is a problem of white people. But if a black mother were in the same position, people would then make a generalization of all black women. There is no individuality in that, just a blanket statement. (Which is a reason why I have a problem with using the word "shamanism" but that's another related problem)  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

I also understand that just because I don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think it's usually one sided though, that BECAUSE someone "has the privilege" it's used against them. Like that it appears a woman can hit a man, but it's a terrible crime for him to even hit her back.

I feel that "one sided" isn't the best turn of phrase because it isn't about sides, but about a larger societal pattern.

I feel it is rare for people to use their privilege because for the most part, privilege isn't about you, or me or our actions. It's about what is assumed about us based on labels.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Bastemhet

I'm saying that American culture has it's own social myths. One of which is that if you work hard, you can achieve anything. What this ignores is personal and institutionalized racism and oppression that have ongoing effects on how people of color are seen and evaluated, which in turn can either damage their prospects when trying to achieve the same things as whites, or completely eliminate them. e.g. Only 8% of CFO's in Fortune 500 companies are women, and only 3% are minorities. (source)

This society also values individualism and being "self-made," the myth of the American cowboy. This assumes that all people will be judged on their individual actions, and judged as individuals, rather than judged as part of the overarching ethnicity of "those Asians" or "those blacks." My example with Sarah Palin's daughter is that you don't hear anyone saying that her baby-daddy issues is a problem of white people. But if a black mother were in the same position, people would then make a generalization of all black women. There is no individuality in that, just a blanket statement. (Which is a reason why I have a problem with using the word "shamanism" but that's another related problem)

Thank you for the clarification.  

[Kuroiban]

Ishtar Shakti

On An Energetic Level
Words are a manifestation of energy but the manifestation isn't the sound but the energy we put into it.

If a person says African American it can still feel the same as if a person says Niger

If a person says Niger in a positive way when talking to their friend the feel is completely Different and the energy it releases is completely different. Go pay attention to the energy of linguistics.

The repetition of the word can build up in effect... but the effect is dependent on the energy that the people are using not on the actual word. The word has more of a psychological association affect then an actual energetic one. (though the psychological association affect then creates an energetic affect as people react to the word)

Politically correct speech is used to create a psychological foundation but if a person has a foundation which does not adhere to the "meaning" of the word no matter what words they use it won't change the energetic imprint which is inherent with the speaking of the word. Politically correct speech works on children because they don't have a predisposition.

Aka. They are a blank slate. Due to habituation and contextualization people have inherent inner meanings which they adhere to when they hear certain words.

Depending on context etc. words develop different meanings. I.E. the word Niger has a different meaning when a white person says it then when a black person says it. It has different meanings due to context etc. implied meanings etc. or what we imagine is implied in the meaning.

I could say any "bad word" and have it mean nothing but wholesomeness and respect on an energetic level. Its why usually when I cuss I'm smiling and I'm not upset. We give words meaning not the other way around. A word is just a sound that we formed, its a shape, the deeper context we provide.

Eh, I'm still not sure how far down the rabbit hole I'm willing to go with you on this.

If we're talking about intent as a metaphysical concept, well, the problem I have here is that, as a metaphysical concept, it ain't all about what YOU are putting into the word or action.

We invoke words and action to trigger psychological and emotional response, not only in what this word has meant for us but what this word means at a primordial, anthropological level.

I'm not certain I want the "astral baggage" on a racial slur.  

[kage no neko]

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

I also understand that just because I don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think it's usually one sided though, that BECAUSE someone "has the privilege" it's used against them. Like that it appears a woman can hit a man, but it's a terrible crime for him to even hit her back.

I feel that "one sided" isn't the best turn of phrase because it isn't about sides, but about a larger societal pattern.

I feel it is rare for people to use their privilege because for the most part, privilege isn't about you, or me or our actions. It's about what is assumed about us based on labels.

Assumptions should be changeable. :<  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

Assumptions should be changeable. :<

I feel assumptions are changeable, but that doesn't keep them from being used to begin with.

I feel your experience with your apartment complex and then your high school shows that.  

[Bastemhet]

kage no neko

When I was younger, I moved with my dad to an apartment complex. We were the only family there that wasn't black. I didn't see a problem with this, since before we moved there one of my best friends was black. But apparently they had a problem with us being there, they did not like us. Everyone there was constantly mean to me, I even got jumped.. simply because they did not like me because of my skin tone. For the longest time after that, I hated black people because they were black. And I feared them, that they might hurt me again. Until high school, I held these thoughts. I ended up going to a mostly black school, but everyone there was nice to me. There was no racial hatred there. It really helped me feel better about other people, and taught me to not hold something silly like that against anyone.

I'm sorry you had those experiences. I've had my own, but I think it's important that we recognize our thought patterns- that we made judgment on black people to realize later that not all of them are like that. It's really telling about how this society educates the young to think of people of other ethnicities.

Quote:

I don't understand the whole racial situation, why it's so important. I've seen people of all colors be shitty people, as well as wonderful people. I don't see how I've ever gotten privilege because of my race, especially when it's been used against me.. when people look at me with hatred because of something like that.

If you're not clear on how privilege affects your every day life, you might benefit from reading the articles I linked to earlier responding to Beorc's post. The first being "Unpacking the Knapsack" in which a white woman lists all the possible ways that her privilege gives her unearned benefit over others simply because she is white.

Quote:

I also understand that just because I don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think it's usually one sided though, that BECAUSE someone "has the privilege" it's used against them. Like that it appears a woman can hit a man, but it's a terrible crime for him to even hit her back.

I'm not sure how someone's privilege can be used against them. Can you please explain?

Quote:

I don't agree with it, and I don't really understand it.. and I don't see why any of it matters, race gender or whatnot. It's silly and it'd really be great if people could just get over it.

See, that's the thing. By being white you have the privilege to say "people should just get over it." We are trained from children to have the beliefs that we do, perpetuated by racist language and assumptions. And the fact that ethnic studies, i.e. the history of people of color, is only available in college, is a sign that we are moving too slowly. Dialogue on differences in race, as well as people of mixed heritage, should be started as soon as we begin taking history.  

[Bastemhet]

Brass Bell Doll

Bastemhet

I'm saying that American culture has it's own social myths. One of which is that if you work hard, you can achieve anything. What this ignores is personal and institutionalized racism and oppression that have ongoing effects on how people of color are seen and evaluated, which in turn can either damage their prospects when trying to achieve the same things as whites, or completely eliminate them. e.g. Only 8% of CFO's in Fortune 500 companies are women, and only 3% are minorities. (source)

This society also values individualism and being "self-made," the myth of the American cowboy. This assumes that all people will be judged on their individual actions, and judged as individuals, rather than judged as part of the overarching ethnicity of "those Asians" or "those blacks." My example with Sarah Palin's daughter is that you don't hear anyone saying that her baby-daddy issues is a problem of white people. But if a black mother were in the same position, people would then make a generalization of all black women. There is no individuality in that, just a blanket statement. (Which is a reason why I have a problem with using the word "shamanism" but that's another related problem)

Thank you for the clarification.

You're welcome!  

[kage no neko]

Bastemhet

If you're not clear on how privilege affects your every day life, you might benefit from reading the articles I linked to earlier responding to Beorc's post. The first being "Unpacking the Knapsack" in which a white woman lists all the possible ways that her privilege gives her unearned benefit over others simply because she is white.

I don't see those as benefits, just how it is. I don't see it as a benefit for there to be people of my color on posters or CDs, or that I can find things made specially for my color. I find the same things for other races. I don't really understand how any of those apply to just being white. I've seen them all apply to all races.

Quote:

I'm not sure how someone's privilege can be used against them. Can you please explain?

The privilege of being white, for example. I know I honestly haven't researched it as thoroughly as I probably could've, but the thing of affirmative action. Making it so if I go apply for a job, and I'm competing with someone else of colored skin for the job, that even if I'm better at the job, they'd get hired instead of me to make it "fair". Or the idea of applying to a college and them having to meet a quota of having this many white people and this many black people, and simply because of that quota, a black person could very well get in instead of me.
I think it should be a fair competition, between what really matters toward the situation, not having it be fair between races or genders. That in a job, the experience and knowledge should count more than what color you are. Or toward college, the grades should matter.
That to make it "equal", those who have the privileged are being less considered, even if they're better qualified.
It should truly be equal opportunity, and I see it more as the privileged are losing what they've personally worked hard to earn (the grades, or the knowledge and experience) to people who haven't done as much work, just because it'll be "fair" that way. Not to say that those who don't have the privilege can't work as hard, but that it's siding toward them for something that shouldn't matter in the situation.

Quote:

See, that's the thing. By being white you have the privilege to say "people should just get over it." We are trained from children to have the beliefs that we do, perpetuated by racist language and assumptions. And the fact that ethnic studies, i.e. the history of people of color, is only available in college, is a sign that we are moving too slowly. Dialogue on differences in race, as well as people of mixed heritage, should be started as soon as we begin taking history.

I think that they've the privilege as much to say "people should just get over it" as I do, just for some reason they'd rather complain instead of move forward. Or at least that's how I see it.
I also think that it should be more than black vs white. How big of a deal "black history month is", and why? There are other months for other races, asian, native american. Also for other people who don't have that added "privilege", like woman's month and disability month. It amazes me how many people aren't even aware there are months for anyone besides those with darker skin colors. Why don't those other months get as much light as February. How is it fair to them?  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

I don't see those as benefits, just how it is.

In a case such as media representation, one of the ways in which this is a privilege is that we have lots of positive reinforcement that our physical traits are considered physically acceptable and appealing.

kage no neko

The privilege of being white, for example. I know I honestly haven't researched it as thoroughly as I probably could've, but the thing of affirmative action. Making it so if I go apply for a job, and I'm competing with someone else of colored skin for the job, that even if I'm better at the job, they'd get hired instead of me to make it "fair".

This is one of the most unfortunate myths of Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action is based on the premise that between two equal candidates, a minority is hired. If you are more qualified, you will not loose a job because of Affirmative Action.

kage no neko

Or the idea of applying to a college and them having to meet a quota of having this many white people and this many black people, and simply because of that quota, a black person could very well get in instead of me.

I agree that quotas are unfair- but they're also not used.

I feel it is important to point out that women are included in affirmative action standards. As a woman, by Affirmative Action, if I am an equal candidate with someone who is a majority, and the choice is between them and myself, like you, I would be hired under the terms of Affirmative Action.

kage no neko

That to make it "equal", those who have the privileged are being less considered, even if they're better qualified.

I'm sorry, but this isn't the case.

This is one of the top ten myths of Affirmative Action.

kage no neko

I think that they've the privilege as much to say "people should just get over it" as I do, just for some reason they'd rather complain instead of move forward. Or at least that's how I see it.

I'm sorry, but I find this very hurtful.
It feels like we're not allowed to comment upon injustices. Would you feel it is appropriate to tell my ex to ignore and "just get over" the abuse she suffered because she loved me and I her?

She's still in therapy, and is working on healing, but your words come across as callous and very hurtful.

kage no neko

I also think that it should be more than black vs white.

I feel the issue is much larger than black verses white, but Kyriarchy is a huge topic, which I feel others have been exploring.

kage no neko

How big of a deal "black history month is", and why? There are other months for other races, asian, native american. Also for other people who don't have that added "privilege", like woman's month and disability month. It amazes me how many people aren't even aware there are months for anyone besides those with darker skin colors. Why don't those other months get as much light as February. How is it fair to them?

I feel there is not as much press for other groups because much of America's social struggle has to do with the intensity surrounding African Americans and that much of the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the removal of Jim Crow Laws.  

[maenad nuri]

kage no neko

I think it should be a fair competition, between what really matters toward the situation, not having it be fair between races or genders. That in a job, the experience and knowledge should count more than what color you are. Or toward college, the grades should matter.

The concept of privilege is that the situation is not fair to begin with. Let's move back to the college example. You say it should be entirely about grades.
Person A and B both get straight A's and max out their respective potential GPA, and get equal scores on college entrance exams.

Person A is from a high income, highly funded school district and has been able to take AP classes and get a 5.0 on a 4.0 scale. They also have well funded sports and arts programs, and has been able to take advantage of it.

Person B comes from a rural, poor area. There are no AP classes and very little in the way of arts, or sports beyond football. They've earned a 4.0.

It's not fair, it's not equal because of person A's privilege. Should person B get extra consideration in college admissions

Quote:

That to make it "equal", those who have the privileged are being less considered, even if they're better qualified.

Then they are doing it wrong. It's about leveling the playing field. Which only looks like the privileged are getting shafted, since it takes a little bit more work to get what was easy before.  

[maenad nuri]

I do want to thank everyone (with the exception of Beorc and his flounce, which amused me greatly this morning) for having this conversation calmly. It helps!  

[kage no neko]

Brass Bell Doll

In a case such as media representation, one of the ways in which this is a privilege is that we have lots of positive reinforcement that our physical traits are considered physically acceptable and appealing.

Is someone supposed to be blamed for this though?

Quote:

This is one of the most unfortunate myths of Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action is based on the premise that between two equal candidates, a minority is hired. If you are more qualified, you will not loose a job because of Affirmative Action.

I heard it from my counselor, about colleges I was looking at..

Quote:

I agree that quotas are unfair- but they're also not used.

I know in some colleges they are. I'll go look for them later if you want me to. Unless something has changed?

Quote:

I feel it is important to point out that women are included in affirmative action standards. As a woman, by Affirmative Action, if I am an equal candidate with someone who is a majority, and the choice is between them and myself, like you, I would be hired under the terms of Affirmative Action.

I realize I'm part minority because I'm female. I don't understand why that should give me an unfair advantage compared to a male.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but this isn't the case.

This is one of the top ten myths of Affirmative Action.

What is the truth then?

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I find this very hurtful.
It feels like we're not allowed to comment upon injustices. Would you feel it is appropriate to tell my ex to ignore and "just get over" the abuse she suffered because she loved me and I her?

She's still in therapy, and is working on healing, but your words come across as callous and very hurtful.

Ah. I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking more of racial things, like the black people saying that "my ancestors were slaves, you owe me money!"
I REALLY don't understand the issue with gay marriage, or gay anything. I don't understand why people insist on protesting things that have nothing to do with them, that won't ever affect them. I'm sorry about your ex. In that case, I'd probably tell the people who were mean against her to get the ******** over themselves and mind their own business.

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I feel the issue is much larger than black verses white, but Kyriarchy is a huge topic, which I feel others have been exploring.

I just think the whole idea is silly. Why in the 21st century, in America, we still have this nonsense.. factual or imagined concept, I still don't understand it.

Quote:

I feel there is not as much press for other groups because much of America's social struggle has to do with the intensity surrounding African Americans and that much of the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the removal of Jim Crow Laws.

neutral I just think it's extremely unfair, and that the Native Americans deserve something like that more..



I suppose when I finally get around to going to college, I might take one of those Women's Studies courses, to maybe help me understand the situation better. Since right now I'm sitting here thinking how stupid the situation is, and I don't really understand the situation besides how I've gotten to view it through my life. I think that's why I view it how I do, because I don't know enough about it to be able to understand it.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

maenad nuri

Then they are doing it wrong. It's about leveling the playing field. Which only looks like the privileged are getting shafted, since it takes a little bit more work to get what was easy before.

I feel it is important to point out that it doesn't even really look like the privileged as a whole are loosing out either.

The statistics from the 2000 US Census concluded that less than 1% of White Americans were not afforded a job because of Affirmative Action programs.

The main source of job loss was from factory relocation.