Homosexuality and the Bible (1/5/06)

[IcarusDream]

Peoples_Alchemist

I think you argue just to argue...

Sure do. Doesn't make me wrong, nor does it make you right.

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and I only responded this way because homosexuality is and always will be a sin.

If that was the reason you responded this way, then you have a serious lack of thought behind you. A calm post reassuring everyone that homosexuality is indeed a sin despite your refusal to respond to refutation doesn't make it a sin all of a sudden. Calm speech certainly doesn't make you right and fire and brimstone sure as hell don't make me wrong.

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You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so.

Why can't I have expected you to have done your research when you claim "homosexuality is and always will be a sin"?

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Instead of attacking my post like that, you could disagree in a more organized manner.

Disagree? Dude, you are flat out wrong, it is right in front of you and you are refusing to even deny it "in a[n]...organized manner," but instead simply reaffirm your convictions with no further analysis.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Peoples_Alchemist

No it doesn't. I think you argue just to argue... and I only responded this way because homosexuality is and always will be a sin. You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so. Instead of attacking my post like that, you could disagree in a more organized manner.

I hate to interrupt the fabulous pissing match, but if you admit to not knowing the intricacies of the Bible...then why are you using it in your argument?

Piece of advice: Use what you know to debate. And if you don't know anything, then either do some in-depth research, or don't debate at all.  

[xXxAllThatsLeftxXx]

SinfulGuillotine

Peoples_Alchemist

No it doesn't. I think you argue just to argue... and I only responded this way because homosexuality is and always will be a sin. You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so. Instead of attacking my post like that, you could disagree in a more organized manner.

I hate to interrupt the fabulous pissing match, but if you admit to not knowing the intricacies of the Bible...then why are you using it in your argument?

Piece of advice: Use what you know to debate. And if you don't know anything, then either do some in-depth research, or don't debate at all.

You... don't interupt and Icarus... Here is your 10 commandment reaffirmation Matthew 5:17-20
We shouldn't be argueing about whether you think homosexuality is a sin or not, but that we can be forgiven for what we do. Ephesians 2:8-9
Obviously this argument will go on forever. Instead of arguing about how much or how little we understand the bible, we could understand that 1. Homosexuality, like lust, lieing, stealing, etc., is still a sin, and 2., the point is to accept that it is wrong rather then try to rationalize it, and repent. What we did was both wrong and pointless; you for arguing for the heck of it, and me, for continuing this lame argument. Now do you agree that it says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin, or are you going to argue about something else I said, because I for one, am tired of arguing with you.  

[IcarusDream]

Peoples_Alchemist

You... don't interupt and Icarus... Here is your 10 commandment reaffirmation Matthew 5:17-20

Which part? The he who keeps my commandments bit? Yeah, I guess that could work, but those verses hardly reaffirm ALL TEN of the commandments.

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We shouldn't be argueing about whether you think homosexuality is a sin or not, but that we can be forgiven for what we do.

How about I take the side of Abelard, and tell you that sin is only a sin when an act is intended as a sin. As we have seen with God, both ordering and prohibiting a singular act can be seen is good based on intent (like when God ordered Abraham to kill his son).

Let's argue subjective morality, though I think you might take the stance of Aquinas, in an attempt to balance the objective and the subjective.

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Obviously this argument will go on forever.

It ended. You have stopped arguing about homosexuality. If you want to continue, go back a page and pick up my last points against you and argue from there.

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1. Homosexuality, like lust, lieing, stealing, etc., is still a sin,

Homosexuality isn't a sin. And lust isn't always a sin, either.

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2. the point is to accept that it is wrong rather then try to rationalize it, and repent.

I haven't even accepted that rape is always a sin. Get to work on trying to convince me of this other stuff first, though.

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What we did was both wrong and pointless;

Pointless in that you raise no more points yet still claim to be right. You are defying all rationalism and logic, wasn't it da Vinci who refused to believe in a God that gave us logic and reason and didn't want us to use them?

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you for arguing for the heck of it,

And also to get vehemently obstinate bigots to stop telling people they're sinners when they aren't.

If you want a Christian perspective, I'd say that I'm trying to save you from providing false witness.

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and me, for continuing this lame argument.

RAmen. Praise His Noodly Goodness for this revelation.

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Now do you agree that it says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin,

To borrow a phrase from linaloki, "********." You have proved nothing.

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or are you going to argue about something else I said

Obviously, I'm trying to save you from being a false witness!

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because I for one, am tired of arguing with you.

Come on. Get to work. You aren't arguing, you're blaspheming your own God by refusing to correct (or at least respond to refutations of) your own witness.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Peoples_Alchemist

You... don't interupt

It's a public forum. If you don't want to be interrupted, take it to PMs.  

[IcarusDream]

Tia_Valentine

The only sexual intercourse that is not consider sodomy is sex between a man and woman that are in love and married in the eyes of the Lord and that are expressing their love and not lust for one another while having said sex.

Sodomy of a**l/oral types is condemned where?

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When the Bible refers to Sodomy as a sin that will send someone hell it doesn’t mean that by committing sodomy once or even a few times will send a person to hell….

I'd like you to quote me the passages.

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What it refers to is how the people of Sodom and Gomorra had continually engaged in these lustful sex acts and that lust and sex had back and idol in their lives that kept them from accepting God into their lives……

lol, where? eh? I could've sworn...it was more like: inhospitality, disregard for the poor, and much more than just one attempted rape.  

[xXxAllThatsLeftxXx]

IcarusDream

Peoples_Alchemist

You... don't interupt and Icarus... Here is your 10 commandment reaffirmation Matthew 5:17-20

Which part? The he who keeps my commandments bit? Yeah, I guess that could work, but those verses hardly reaffirm ALL TEN of the commandments.

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We shouldn't be argueing about whether you think homosexuality is a sin or not, but that we can be forgiven for what we do.

How about I take the side of Abelard, and tell you that sin is only a sin when an act is intended as a sin. As we have seen with God, both ordering and prohibiting a singular act can be seen is good based on intent (like when God ordered Abraham to kill his son).

Let's argue subjective morality, though I think you might take the stance of Aquinas, in an attempt to balance the objective and the subjective.

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Obviously this argument will go on forever.

It ended. You have stopped arguing about homosexuality. If you want to continue, go back a page and pick up my last points against you and argue from there.

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1. Homosexuality, like lust, lieing, stealing, etc., is still a sin,

Homosexuality isn't a sin. And lust isn't always a sin, either.

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2. the point is to accept that it is wrong rather then try to rationalize it, and repent.

I haven't even accepted that rape is always a sin. Get to work on trying to convince me of this other stuff first, though.

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What we did was both wrong and pointless;

Pointless in that you raise no more points yet still claim to be right. You are defying all rationalism and logic, wasn't it da Vinci who refused to believe in a God that gave us logic and reason and didn't want us to use them?

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you for arguing for the heck of it,

And also to get vehemently obstinate bigots to stop telling people they're sinners when they aren't.

If you want a Christian perspective, I'd say that I'm trying to save you from providing false witness.

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and me, for continuing this lame argument.

RAmen. Praise His Noodly Goodness for this revelation.

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Now do you agree that it says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin,

To borrow a phrase from linaloki, "********." You have proved nothing.

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or are you going to argue about something else I said

Obviously, I'm trying to save you from being a false witness!

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because I for one, am tired of arguing with you.

Come on. Get to work. You aren't arguing, you're blaspheming your own God by refusing to correct (or at least respond to refutations of) your own witness.

I really like your choice of words in our argument... They are very colorful to say the least. Are you a Christian, Icarus? I'm argueing because I can't accept no for an answers, especially when the one who is arguing with me doesn't understand half the words he's typing. All who argue with this guy, give up before he get's ahead... he's just going to argue, and say you are wrong without proof, and say things utterly ridiculous. I could go on for hours about how pigheaded this guy is. And after he's done he's going to condemn you for sticking up for whatever you say. According to him, I blasphemed against God and misunderstood the bible. He also says that if you don't think it is a sin, whether it is lying or having sex with your sister, then it's no longer a sin!!!! I posted evidence and he still couldn't see what is right in front of his face. The bible isn't a fairy tale for your own enjoyment, Icarus! Oh, I like that name. It is very indicative of your character. So after all of this, you should take my advice and do not argue with this guy. Lmao, just watch. He's going to take my words out of context, and -gasp- accuse me of being a sinner and not knowing what I'm talking about.  

[IcarusDream]

Peoples_Alchemist

I really like your choice of words in our argument... They are very colorful to say the least. Are you a Christian, Icarus?

Don't know what I am. I was raised Catholic, not that anymore. I'm leaning towards Platonism.

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And after he's done he's going to condemn you for sticking up for whatever you say.

I'll stick up for NAMBLA then, you'd better not shout me down.

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According to him, I blasphemed against God and misunderstood the bible.

Ah right, prove that you understood it correct. Continue the argument instead of commenting on it.

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He also says that if you don't think it is a sin, whether it is lying or having sex with your sister, then it's no longer a sin!!!!

Intent plays a huge role, you're commenting as if you've proved something's wrong but you really haven't done jack squat.

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I posted evidence and he still couldn't see what is right in front of his face.

May I laugh? HAHAHAHAHA.

You're so ******** ridiculable (that's probably not even a word, but it's what you are). You posted stories about love between men that, if anything, showed acceptance of that kind of love.

You failed to comment on the idea that homosexual sex was condemned as a Canaanite ritual (Which it was, and is why it was condemned).

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The bible isn't a fairy tale for your own enjoyment, Icarus!

I actually enjoy it, so sorry. I also enjoy reading it in Greek, and actually knowing what the stories mean.

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Oh, I like that name. It is very indicative of your character.

My name is a remembrance of the song by Yngwie Malmsteen.

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So after all of this, you should take my advice and do not argue with this guy.

Or maybe, you could actually use the reason and logic God supposedly gave you.

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He's going to take my words out of context,

Prove that I have ever done that, or ever will.

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accuse me of being a sinner and not knowing what I'm talking about.

Is it just me or did you say "You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so."

These aren't accusations I've made of you. You already confessed. Just get the ******** out or start actually saying something relevant.

Would you like to define αρσενοκοιται and μαλακοι for me? That would be a nice place to start.  

[Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori]

Icarus, you asked for definitions of arsenokoites and malakos? (I think. My computer doesn't display greek letters, could you maybe use romanizations?)

I have a link for you, you might have seen it before.



http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html

That's all. <3  

[IcarusDream]

Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori

Icarus, you asked for definitions of arsenokoites and malakos? (I think. My computer doesn't display greek letters, could you maybe use romanizations?)

I have a link for you, you might have seen it before.



http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html

That's all. <3

I've read a million sites, but that's a new one.

All the ones that talk about arsenokoites actually condemning homosexuals sound just like our friend Alchemist, assuming correctness with no deduction or proof otherwise.  

[xXxAllThatsLeftxXx]

IcarusDream

Peoples_Alchemist

I really like your choice of words in our argument... They are very colorful to say the least. Are you a Christian, Icarus?

Don't know what I am. I was raised Catholic, not that anymore. I'm leaning towards Platonism.

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And after he's done he's going to condemn you for sticking up for whatever you say.

I'll stick up for NAMBLA then, you'd better not shout me down.

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According to him, I blasphemed against God and misunderstood the bible.

Ah right, prove that you understood it correct. Continue the argument instead of commenting on it.

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He also says that if you don't think it is a sin, whether it is lying or having sex with your sister, then it's no longer a sin!!!!

Intent plays a huge role, you're commenting as if you've proved something's wrong but you really haven't done jack squat.

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I posted evidence and he still couldn't see what is right in front of his face.

May I laugh? HAHAHAHAHA.

You're so ******** ridiculable (that's probably not even a word, but it's what you are). You posted stories about love between men that, if anything, showed acceptance of that kind of love.

You failed to comment on the idea that homosexual sex was condemned as a Canaanite ritual (Which it was, and is why it was condemned).

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The bible isn't a fairy tale for your own enjoyment, Icarus!

I actually enjoy it, so sorry. I also enjoy reading it in Greek, and actually knowing what the stories mean.

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Oh, I like that name. It is very indicative of your character.

My name is a remembrance of the song by Yngwie Malmsteen.

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So after all of this, you should take my advice and do not argue with this guy.

Or maybe, you could actually use the reason and logic God supposedly gave you.

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He's going to take my words out of context,

Prove that I have ever done that, or ever will.

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accuse me of being a sinner and not knowing what I'm talking about.

Is it just me or did you say "You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so."

These aren't accusations I've made of you. You already confessed. Just get the ******** out or start actually saying something relevant.

Would you like to define αρσενοκοιται and μαλακοι for me? That would be a nice place to start.

Does me understanding whatever you typed in greek, take anything away from the English bible? You should also know that the bible was written in Aramaic before it was translated into Greek or Latin. And your proof of you taking my words out of context is right in your post. You say I don't provide enough of an argument, and that I haven't proven anything. What have you done to prove me wrong? You don't support your arguments and you couldn't possibly know what you are talking about, seeing as you steal most of your quotes from some random guy I never had the pleasure to meet. Your arguments are disgusting enough to make anyone wretch. Your Ignorance is clear in everything you post. Of course I do not have a vast knowledge of the bible, which is to be expected. However, you once again took my words out of context and assumed that I said something along the lines of: "The bible doesn't make sense to me." or "I only read this briefly and I think this looks good." I do understand what the bible says. What I have posted is clear enough evidence for anyone to understand, but you can't see past your pride to actually accept it. I might not have spent manyy years studying this topic, but I do have experience.
There are many reasons why God would make Homosexuality a sin.

One, was of course, that he had intended for such things to be between a wed couple, one male and one female.
He also tells us that it is a sin for our own safety. Many times, if the two people are not married, they usually have intercourse with other people. Sexually transmitted diseases didn't just appear in the early 20th century. God cares about everybody. Our body is not our own, so God understandably wants us to keep it in working order.
9 times out of 10, premarital intercourse occurs because of lust rather then love. How many people have had sex out of mariage and then wanted to live with that person for the rest of their life?
When you have premarital or same-sex intercourse you are sinning against the body. Your body, which should be used to further God's kingdom. If you have AIDS or Syphillis, then you can't serve as well as if you were healthy, and you can only blame yourself for that. Homosexuality of course is not the only way you can sin against your body. All Premarital sex, incest, drug use, self-mutilation, are all examples.
Loving anothing guy is not a sin, but having sexual relations with them is. Take David and Jonathan. David had a wife, of course...
The Great thing is that we can go to Jesus and ask him for forgiveness. I can't stress that enough. Anybody who remembers what it was like when they first dedicated their lives to Christ or even when they rededicated it to him would know what I'm talking about. Sometimes it's hard to face a sin that has become a habit, but you can overcome. Through a strong relationship with God, you can. I know from experience, though I do not want to go into detail. If you need to talk to someone you could always PM me. I would also appreciate it if this post WOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. Thank you.  

[IcarusDream]

Peoples_Alchemist

Does me understanding whatever you typed in greek, take anything away from the English bible?

Um, yes.

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You should also know that the bible was written in Aramaic before it was translated into Greek or Latin.

Not always, but sometimes yes. And keep in mind that the Greek is all that we've got.

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And your proof of you taking my words out of context is right in your post.

Of course it would be, now show us.

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You say I don't provide enough of an argument, and that I haven't proven anything.

Um...yeah.

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What have you done to prove me wrong?

Refuted your bullshit.

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You don't support your arguments and you couldn't possibly know what you are talking about, seeing as you steal most of your quotes from some random guy I never had the pleasure to meet.

What the ******** are you talking about? The only quotes I can remember using are "Jesus ******** that off" and "******** some brains.

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Your arguments are disgusting enough to make anyone wretch.

Not many people wretching except me, at you.

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Your Ignorance is clear in everything you post.

Explain.
Expand.
Quote (FOR ONCE).
Prove.

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Of course I do not have a vast knowledge of the bible, which is to be expected.

I wonder how much you've even read.

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However, you once again took my words out of context and assumed that I said something along the lines of: "The bible doesn't make sense to me." or "I only read this briefly and I think this looks good."

No, you simply seemed to say you didn't have a vast enough knowledge to counter my points against you.

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I do understand what the bible says.

Is anyone else here laughing?

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What I have posted is clear enough evidence for anyone to understand, but you can't see past your pride to actually accept it.

Psychogenetic fallacies now, LOL!

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I might not have spent manyy years studying this topic, but I do have experience.

And you have no experience in arguments or debates do you. Learn how to respond on the actual topic from now on? Plzkthxbai.

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There are many reasons why God would make Homosexuality a sin.

Oh boy, here we go. "I'm going to speak for God now."

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One, was of course, that he had intended for such things to be between a wed couple, one male and one female.

Prove. Not the male/female marriage part, the sex only happens in marriage part, because I mean...prostitution is legal in Israel, one of the most hardcore Jewish states, and they apparently don't think it's wrong.

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He also tells us that it is a sin for our own safety. Many times, if the two people are not married, they usually have intercourse with other people. Sexually transmitted diseases didn't just appear in the early 20th century.

LOL. Dude, STDs go for married and unmarried folks, so your point is bullllshhiiiittt.

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God cares about everybody.

Malachi 1:4

If Edom says, "We have been crushed but we will rebuild the ruins," Thus says the LORD of hosts: They indeed may build, but I will tear down, And they shall be called the land of guilt, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.

Uh-huh.

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Our body is not our own,

Proof?

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so God understandably wants us to keep it in working order.

I've heard it said before, but do you have scripture?

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9 times out of 10, premarital intercourse occurs because of lust rather then love.

Prove it. Oh, also prove that premarital sex is a sin.

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How many people have had sex out of mariage and then wanted to live with that person for the rest of their life?

Hm, I think that I am in that situation right now, and, apparently, so were my GFs parents...

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When you have premarital or same-sex intercourse you are sinning against the body.

Prove it.

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Your body, which should be used to further God's kingdom.

Prove it for one. Also, "should"=/=must.

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If you have AIDS or Syphillis, then you can't serve as well as if you were healthy, and you can only blame yourself for that.

Ah, right, but anybody, even married folks, can have aids or syphilis, so I don't see you point.

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Homosexuality of course is not the only way you can sin against your body.

Prove that it's a sin.

...They'd be sinning by just existing is what you're saying.

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All Premarital sex, incest, drug use, self-mutilation, are all examples.

Uh-huh, prove that incest, premarital sex, drugs, and self-mutilation are sins. You might get ONE of those as a sin.

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Loving anothing guy is not a sin, but having sexual relations with them is.

Bulllsshiiitttt. You haven't proved it yet.

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Take David and Jonathan. David had a wife, of course...

But David slept with his friends wife ;] 2 Sam 11

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The Great thing is that we can go to Jesus and ask him for forgiveness. I can't stress that enough. Anybody who remembers what it was like when they first dedicated their lives to Christ or even when they rededicated it to him would know what I'm talking about. Sometimes it's hard to face a sin that has become a habit, but you can overcome. Through a strong relationship with God, you can.

Well, none of that matters...if they never sinned in the first place!!!

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I would also appreciate it if this post WOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. Thank you.

Prove that I have ever taken your words out of context.  

[IcarusDream]

Tia_Valentine

Leviticus 18:22
King James Version
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination
New Living Translation
Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

My version goes a little bit more like...."כב ואת זכר--לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הוא" and means that you shouldn't practice the Canaanite ritual homosexuality.

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Romans 1:18-32
[snip]

Literally? Yeah, sure it condemns male homosexual sex. But nowhere in there does it say that the females went to other females.

And if you actually take care to look at what Paul was probably talking about it, things just fall into place as the whole thing just being rituals.

This site is an interesting read.

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1 Corinthians 6:9-10
King James Version
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, not idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, not drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
New Living Translation
Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.

Arsenokoites ("homosexuals") are pretty much the ritual sex people. I mean, if you read the LXX, it's a pretty clear reference. Malakos ("male prostitutes") is less clear, but definitely means more along the lines of "the effeminate," i.e the weak.