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 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:53 pm
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:34 pm
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:08 pm
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Baptist Holman So then man draws himself towards God? The problem here is that your ignoring what I have been quoting from Scripture. You have not said one word about Ephesians 1:11, John 6:43-46, John 6:37 and John 15:16. You just stand there with 1 Timothy 2:1-6 saying "G-d calls all people to be saved." God did not call all people to be saved. I was willing to accept that "God desires (or wants) all people to be saved." Now you went overboard.
I'm trying to keep it to generalizations that fit for more than just one verse, so I don't have to go verse-by-verse explaining why things (probably) aren't applicable to predestination.
Quote: Answer my question. Why do people reject Christ and some accept Him?
I did answer your question. Bad things happen in the world, and that can block our connection with G-d and Christ. People reject Him because they are told lies and twisted truths by the world. Some people are lucky enough to see through those lies, and some refuse to be shown the truth, no matter how hard anyone tries to explain it. |
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:25 am
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Well then, the centuries old debate still lives up to its hype. I'm going to leave this debate because of bad hermeneutics are being played here. So then I will make my conclusion or final statement.
As Christians, we have been chosen by God before the foundation of the world. So that we should be holy and blameless before him in Christ (Eph. 1:3-4) according to his will. (Eph. 1:11) We were predestined to respond and believe in the gospel of our salvation. (Eph. 1:11-14)
Since the Fall of Adam and Eve, no man or woman is able to respond or draw himself towards God. (Rom. 3:10-11) because we are totally depraved as sinners. (Rom. 8:7-9)
1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
That's why we Christians were predestined, chosen by God, who draws us to Christ to be saved. Are deed or will is not the reason why we are Christians today. We are Christians today because we have been blessed with mercy and grace from the Father.
John 6:37 (ESV) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
From here on out, I can only give you the message for you to decide.
Here is a great book on the subject.
God Bless and take care brother. heart
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:20 pm
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:02 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:47 pm
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Cometh The Inquisitor Foxxtrot
Un, no. God did not make humans unrepentant sinnners. Adam and Eve's disobedience made humans unrepentant sinners.
Untrue. Nowhere does it ever say that Humanity sins because of Adam and Eve. Certainly, Adam and Eve's actions were a precursor to the general state of humanity's spiritual affairs, but their actions, in no way force us to sin and not repent.
Even Jesus said we're sinners, and our only way to salvation with Him is through repentance. I don't think that's limited to some, but all.
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:13 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:48 pm
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Cometh The Inquisitor Fact: G-d wants all people to be saved, according to 1 Timothy 2:3-4Fact: Not all people are saved. Conclusion: Predestination must either not exist, or happen against G-d's wishes.
The main concern here is the Greek word is θελει (thelei), from θελω (thelō). Here are several renderings: "wants" (NIV); "desires" (NASB); "wishes" (Amplified Bible); "will" (KJV); "desires" (ESV); "desires" (NKJV); "will" (YLT). The Greek word is used elsewhere in the Bible (see Matt. 1:19; 5:40; 8:2; Mark 1:40, 41; 6:22, 25; Luke 4:6; 5:12, 13; 9:23, 24, 54; John 5:6, 21, 35, 40; 6:21, 67; Acts 7:28; 9:6; 17:18; 18:21; Rom. 7:18; 9:16, 18; 1 Cor. 4:19, 21; 7:36, et al). According to the Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible by Robert Young, concerning the word thelō,
Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, p. 1057 22. To wish, will, mean, θέλω thelō
In regards to 1 Timothy 2:4 and θέλω,
Vine's Expository Dictionary of the New Testament Words, pp. 217, 218 In 1 Tim. 2:4, R.V., "willeth" signifies the gracious desire of God for all men to be saved; not all are willing to accept His condition, depriving themselves either by the self-established criterion of their perverted reason, or because of their self-indulgent preference for sin.
The Interlinear KJV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, George Ricker Berry, pp. 128, 129 § 32. To will, to wish. βουλομαι, θέλω. In many cases these two words are used without appreciable distinction, meaning conscious willing, purpose. But frequently it is evident that a difference is intended, although there is much difference of opinion as to the exact distinction. Thayer says that βουλομαι "seems to designate the will which follows deliberation," θέλω, "the will which proceeds from inclination." Grimm, on the other hand, says that θέλω gives prominence to the emotive element, βουλομαι to the rational and volitive; θέλω signifies the choice, while βουλομαι marks the choice as deliberate and intelligent. The view of of Cremer on the whole seems preferable to any other. According to this view, βουλομαι has the wider range of meaning, but θέλω is the stronger word, θέλω denotes the active resolution, the will urging on to action, see Ro. vii. 15, while βουλομαι is rather to have in thought, to intend, to be determined. βουλομαι sometimes means no more than to have an inclination, see Ac. xxiii. 15. Instructive examples of the use of the two words in close proximity are found in Mar. xv. 9, 15, and especially Matt. i. 19.
Now, to the objection you pose, "If God wishes all men indiscriminately to be saved, it is false that some are predestined by his eternal purpose to salvation, and others to punishment." One might have had some ground for saying this, if Paul were speaking here about individual men; although even then we should not have wanted the means of replying to their argument; for, although the will of God ought not to be judged from His secret decrees, when He reveals them to us by outward signs, yet it does not therefore follow that He has not determined with Himself what he intends to do as to every individual man.
Cometh The Inquisitor But it was, according to predestination, G-d that made them unrepentant sinners. It's like shooting someone and then blaming them for bleeding on your carpet.
Then you don't understand God aright, nor the doctrine which I have taught. God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exod. 10:1), yet we find that Pharaoh, not God, sinned (10:16).
Cometh The Inquisitor No. Napoleon is not predestined to lose at Waterloo. He already has. To G-d, who is outside of time, all things have happened, are happening, and will happen all at the same moment. G-d cannot see the future, because, to Him, it is the present and past as well. It's not that G-d pre-ordanes the choices we make, it's that we've already made them.
I demand Biblical references that God does not predestine, that God cannot see the future, and that God does not preordain the choices one has made.
Cometh The Inquisitor If G-d wanted all people to be saved, and then he only chose a few people to be saved, then it would go against G-d's original desire (for all to be saved).
But, according to you,
Quote: all things have happened, are happening, and will happen
and
Quote: we've already made [our choices]
Therefore, by your logic, God's desire has not been accomplished. In fact, it has been thwarted, if God is so desires that all men should be saved, in your hypothetical universalistic sense. Either case, God has already preordained all things, and that some are predestined to salvation, while others, to punishment; or that God knows all things, and therefore, knowing what has, what will, and what is to come, in either sense, the salvation of all men is limited.
Cometh The Inquisitor we've already made themAnd no, the passage is quite specific when it says that 'This is good, and pleases G-d our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.'
If we have already made our choices, as you say (absolute predestinarianism much?), then God's wishes are of no avail. It's also a mistake that you simply use only one verse for a proof-text. It would do you well to also consider that, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44).
Cometh The Inquisitor G-d wants everyone to enter into heaven and be saved. This means that, supposing predestination, the number of those that G-d wants to be saved is a lot larger than those He elects.
If by the preceptive will, then yes. But, if by the decretive will, well, you may readily call yourself a universalist.
Cometh The Inquisitor This of course, begs the question of 'why' did He only choose an elect few, instead of many (or all).
It also has us wonder why God would even save a remnant at all? God did not spare the angels, as Peter says. So, why did God even bother with the sinful human race?
Cometh The Inquisitor Or one can disbelieve predestination entirely and find another way to explain G-d's 'foreknowledge' of what happens.
One can, if they have a theological axe to grind.
Cometh The Inquisitor And where, in the Bible, does it ever say this?
Remember the famous John 3:16? Read further: "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed" (John 3:19, 20). And again, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14).
Cometh The Inquisitor The bolded passages show that my usage of the word 'want' is correct. G-d desires all people to be saved. However, the fact that not all people are saved proves either that predestination goes against G-d's desires, or it doesn't exist.
False dilemma. You really haven't considered God's two wills: preceptive and decretive. The former being known to man and can be resisted. The latter being unknown to man and cannot be resisted.
Cometh The Inquisitor Note the bolded and underlined passage. It says 'all who did receive Him', not 'all who were called by Him'.
If you understood the "Golden Chain" of salvation, you would take note of Paul's words, which say, "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Rom. 8:30). Before one can be saved, they first must hear the Good News. Paul says, "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!'" (10:14, 15).
But, for a further consideration in regards to John 1:12, 13, let us go through this.
John 1:12, 13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
We must first note that a few things. The word "right" in verse 12 may be translated as "authority." Thus, God gave them, that is, those who received, the authority to become children of God. The reference to "children of God," must then imply that John is speaking of adoption. But, we find that these children were not born of natural descent, or literally, of "bloods," nor of "human decision," which is contrary to the idea that man ever had a will to save himself (cf. Rom. 9:16). And it is most certainly not of a husband's will. Now, considering the last part that John makes note of, this would then refute the Pharisees, who thought that being descendants of Abraham were born of God, or had favor in God.
Cometh The Inquisitor I did answer your question.
No, you didn't, actually. All you said was that some hear, and others don't. So, why is that?
Cometh The Inquisitor Bad things happen in the world, and that can block our connection with G-d and Christ. People reject Him because they are told lies and twisted truths by the world. Some people are lucky enough to see through those lies, and some refuse to be shown the truth, no matter how hard anyone tries to explain it.
And why are some "lucky" enought to see through said "lies"? It appears to me that all you're doing is dodging the question. Why are some saved, while others are not? If you, by any means, say that some choose to believe, while others do not, or that some are more fortunate than others, then the question still is not answered, but simply dug downward into a pit. |
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