Actually a Wiccan

[MST3Kakalina]

AisuruTsuki

who made the first christian.

Well, um, Christ? Maybe? All of those disciples and whatnot.

Calling yourself a unicorn does not make you a unicorn. Realizing you're borrowing from (highly distilled) Wiccan concepts and saying so is fine and good. Insisting that this is ALL one needs to know to be Wiccan is not. Reagun and other former and current Wiccans can attest that there is more to it than what's available in even the most non-fluffy and respectable of texts.  

[TeaDidikai]

As everyone else has pointed out, there's a difference between a myster and a revealed religion.

Like Yeshua, Gardner within the framework of the Wiccan Religion was privvy to. Unlike Yeshua, Gardner was under no instruction to preach the faith to the masses. Hence why some aspects are still secret.  

[Doctrix]

Well, since you asked, I'll add my voice to those who believe that yes, "initiation into a coven necessary" to be Wiccan. It doesn't mean that you're any less practiced, dedicated, well-read or fulfilled a Pagan if you are not.  

[iRTsuki]

MST3Kakalina

AisuruTsuki

who made the first christian.

Well, um, Christ? Maybe? All of those disciples and whatnot.

Calling yourself a unicorn does not make you a unicorn. Realizing you're borrowing from (highly distilled) Wiccan concepts and saying so is fine and good. Insisting that this is ALL one needs to know to be Wiccan is not. Reagun and other former and current Wiccans can attest that there is more to it than what's available in even the most non-fluffy and respectable of texts.

maybe but can that be proven fact. Jesus christ, ie Jesus was actually jewish. some of the people who wrote the bible were too.  

[MariusMorningstar]

[Kudzu]

Well, since you asked, I'll add my voice to those who believe that yes, "initiation into a coven necessary" to be Wiccan. It doesn't mean that you're any less practiced, dedicated, well-read or fulfilled a Pagan if you are not.

This is a point that should not be overlooked. Just because you don't meet the criteria for Wicca, doesn't mean that your beliefs and practices aren't valid.  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

MariusMorningstar

[Kudzu]

Well, since you asked, I'll add my voice to those who believe that yes, "initiation into a coven necessary" to be Wiccan. It doesn't mean that you're any less practiced, dedicated, well-read or fulfilled a Pagan if you are not.

This is a point that should not be overlooked. Just because you don't meet the criteria for Wicca, doesn't mean that your beliefs and practices aren't valid.

They are completely valid Eclectic Pagan beliefs. They are not valid Wiccan beliefs though, since most of the religion is oathbound.  

[MST3Kakalina]

AisuruTsuki

maybe but can that be proven fact. Jesus christ, ie Jesus was actually jewish. some of the people who wrote the bible were too.

yeah, but in picking disciples, isn't that making the first Christians, who then later evangelized and founded churches? the fact that Jesus was Jewish doesn't really negate the fact that he had disciples after him that carried on this new religion that wasn't Judaism.


this is a minor and nit picky point and i'm just posting to defend my own Biblical, Judeo-Christian knowledge, so. meh.  

[iRTsuki]

MST3Kakalina

AisuruTsuki

maybe but can that be proven fact. Jesus christ, ie Jesus was actually jewish. some of the people who wrote the bible were too.

yeah, but in picking disciples, isn't that making the first Christians, who then later evangelized and founded churches? the fact that Jesus was Jewish doesn't really negate the fact that he had disciples after him that carried on this new religion that wasn't Judaism.


this is a minor and nit picky point and i'm just posting to defend my own Biblical, Judeo-Christian knowledge, so. meh.

thing is the first half of the bible was writen by the hebrews. none of which were christan, christianity didnt come till later.  

[iRTsuki]

Sivirs

How do you learn Wicca without coming in contact with any Wiccans or Wiccan materials?

Quit dodging the bullet.

i never mentioned not learning from other wiccans or from other wiccan materials, i simply mean not being intitiatied into a coven that goes back to gardner. to me that is just gardenian wicca. if you cant understand that then well i dont think you see my point at all.  

[maenad nuri]

AisuruTsuki

Sivirs

How do you learn Wicca without coming in contact with any Wiccans or Wiccan materials?

Quit dodging the bullet.

i never mentioned not learning from other wiccans or from other wiccan materials, i simply mean not being intitiatied into a coven that goes back to gardner. to me that is just gardenian wicca. if you cant understand that then well i dont think you see my point at all.

Pretty much every tradition and coven should feasibly get back to gardner if you go back far enough. While traditions branch out, its still the same tree.
If you aren't on this tree, you aren't Wiccan. Perfectly valid religion regardless, but not Wiccan.  

[iRTsuki]

Nuri

AisuruTsuki

Sivirs

How do you learn Wicca without coming in contact with any Wiccans or Wiccan materials?

Quit dodging the bullet.

i never mentioned not learning from other wiccans or from other wiccan materials, i simply mean not being intitiatied into a coven that goes back to gardner. to me that is just gardenian wicca. if you cant understand that then well i dont think you see my point at all.

Pretty much every tradition and coven should feasibly get back to gardner if you go back far enough. While traditions branch out, its still the same tree.
If you aren't on this tree, you aren't Wiccan. Perfectly valid religion regardless, but not Wiccan.

i have to say i disagree with the must go back to gardner. i just do. im not saying he wasnt important oh no. he is a strong name that should mean a lot to Wicca but as to everything must going back to him its somthing i highly doubt personally.  

[maenad nuri]

AisuruTsuki

i have to say i disagree with the must go back to gardner. i just do. im not saying he wasnt important oh no. he is a strong name that should mean a lot to Wicca but as to everything must going back to him its somthing i highly doubt personally.

How could it not go back to Gardner? He created the religion. It did not exist before him.

So why should lineage not go back to him? Indeed, how could it not?  

[iRTsuki]

Nuri

AisuruTsuki

i have to say i disagree with the must go back to gardner. i just do. im not saying he wasnt important oh no. he is a strong name that should mean a lot to Wicca but as to everything must going back to him its somthing i highly doubt personally.

How could it not go back to Gardner? He created the religion. It did not exist before him.

So why should lineage not go back to him? Indeed, how could it not?

i feel it debatable. it may still be a newer religon but i dont think he may have been the first. that is my opinion. i know that most facts will trace it mostly back to him but i still have that feeling that there was a little more before him. and i do understand that it was created based off of other religions. most religons are. but i really dont think he was the absolute first. but that is opinion based of fact, personal beliefs and speculation based off of research. its what i believe personally. now for anyone else who says "IT MUST BE THIS" i will accept your views, maybe question them but im not going to say you absolutley wrong unless its somthing that is entirley incorrect, and even then i try to word it to get them questioning rather then tell them what i read isnt right. and those are my two cents.  

[maenad nuri]

AisuruTsuki

i feel it debatable. it may still be a newer religon but i dont think he may have been the first. that is my opinion. i know that most facts will trace it mostly back to him but i still have that feeling that there was a little more before him. and i do understand that it was created based off of other religions. most religons are. but i really dont think he was the absolute first. but that is opinion based of fact, personal beliefs and speculation based off of research. its what i believe personally. now for anyone else who says "IT MUST BE THIS" i will accept your views, maybe question them but im not going to say you absolutley wrong unless its somthing that is entirley incorrect, and even then i try to word it to get them questioning rather then tell them what i read isnt right. and those are my two cents.

What leads you to this belief then? You haven't really backed up your opinion with much that would lead me to reconsider Gardner not being the first. If not Gardner, then who?

What research have you done? Since the research I've read (Triumph of the Moon by Ronald Hutton is a scholarly book that does a case study on the history of Wicca) states pretty clearly Gardner as the creator of Wicca.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

AisuruTsuki

i feel it debatable. it may still be a newer religon but i dont think he may have been the first.

Gardner's claim was that he was initiated by a secret coven, but I don't think he even ever said that he lifted Wicca verbatim from 'Old Dorothy.' He used Old Dorothy's coven and references to the 'Old Religion' to support his legitimacy, much like Mathers and the Golden Dawn did with the Secret Chiefs. Two sources of authority difficult to combat: the past, and god. If you have one or both of them on your side, you're set. Either people have been doing it for hundreds/thousands of years or god/supernatural beings said so. Either way it is an unstoppable tidal force of which you are only the humble current mouthpiece. This is why the Bible is the word of Yahweh and there is so much effort within it to connect events in Jesus' life with the words of earlier prophets; history and god.

Besides Gardner's claims, there is no evidence that there was a unified religion matching Wicca previous to him, so for all intents and purposes, Wicca started with him. It's fine that Wicca is fifty years old and not fifty hundred or fifty thousand, that doesn't illegitimatize it, but you have to understand that Wicca begins with Gardner. Yes, he surely drew on previous religious ideas and even practices, but Wicca as a coherent religion is Gardner's and so every legitimate Wiccan coven must trace its lineage to him. By all means, consider yourself an eclectic with Wiccan influences, but unless you are a branch on that tree and can trace the limbs to the Gardner-trunk (at least in theory; it's a pretty long path by now), you are simply not a Wiccan.