A question if i may Satanism relating to Paganism

[Brass Bell Doll]

Bastemhet

Agreed. I should hope that that's not what's taking place here, but again, I can't tell from what's been posted. However I do admit to speed reading so maybe I didn't catch that on first perusal. I just wanted to impress upon those who may not be aware of Kemetic theology that part of worship is itself being aware of and I think even reciting the many titles of gods.

I also feel it is worth noting that kennings aren't quite the same as a list of realms of influence either- since the kenning can describe the god and not an area of active guidance.

A point that caught me off guard was the speaking of Vestia as a goddess of fire, rather than the richer role of goddess of the hearth- it reminded me of those who think of Thor as a god of rams.

To add, in the example we would find with Apollo, while there is one epithet that ties him to Helios, he is more commonly associated with light- yet there is no association between Apollo and Sol amongst the Romans.  

[Deoridhe]

Bastemhet

Deoridhe

The casting of gods as "of something" is a post-Christian idea. It is not central to the pagan religions. Gods are more than a list of attributes.

Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more? A lot of the information we have about Kemetic deities is their many titles which are lists of their attributes and thus spheres of influence.

My understanding is between the Kemetic gods is that many of their titles might overlap a lot.

One of the problems with saying, for example, "I worship gods of Fire" is that while gods may have similar areas of influence, what "fire" means varies widely between cultures and even within a culture. Take a comparison of Mars and Vesta - two Roman gods associated with "fire". Vesta's connection to fire is a quite literal one - new settlements get fire from old ones and her fires continuing to burn is both of religious and practical significance. Vulcan's association is through the shaping of metal and the making of things as well as natural fire's destructive power.

Now lets make a leap to another tradition - Loki is commonly thought of as a god of fire. This is based off of his contest with Logi - who is fire personified - in Gylfaginning. The similarity of Loki and Logi probably helps, too, but there is literally no other reason I've run into why we would think Loki is associated with fire - and yet people say he is and group him in with Vulcan and Vesta.

A lot of the meat of the lore we now use - the culture, the stories "everyone" knew, the rituals "everyone" did, etc... - is lost. Sometimes we're left with lists, sometimes we're left with a few bare stories, but what held them together and made the gods alive in the minds of an entire culture is gone. What this means is shorthands that were very useful in the old days are now useless.

To give another example - Odin has over 80 names. In his list of names there are vague references to stories we don't have. Without those stories, we can't really know what the names mean. Without the culture, we are more likely than not to fumble when trying to understand what a list of words really means because we're tripping over a different culture of "everyone" knows and "everyone" does.

Many of the post-Christian (and post-other-religions-taking-over) approaches to the religions they attempted to destroy was not only to take away the stories but also to make the few stories that remained seem small and silly. Some of this was through casting myths as explanations for other things - ha ha people thought Loki caused earthquakes ha ha - and some of it was through characterizing gods as singular and two dimensional - Vulcan is a god of fire. This has effected neo-pagans, who instead of trying to reach deeply into a culture and try to bring it and the gods alive want to have a list of who they worship. "I worship gods of fire." "Mars/Ares". "I worship THE moon goddess."  

[Bastemhet]

It's true- a lot of the spheres overlap, but it ends up looking sort of like a Venn diagram than a homogenization. For example both Khonsu and Djehuti are lunar deities, but they have other things they do not hold in common.

Thanks to Bell and Deo for further explanation. It helps to take into account how words can trigger symbolism that can differ widely given the cultural context. I think where I was making the mistake was that even though one says "deity of fire" that still is rife with symbolism and possible myths also come to mind. I have to remind myself of the religious/cultural context that we find these deities in that will enrich or even juxtapose understandings of those gods with given cultural understandings I already have.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Part of the issue with the description you mentioned, the "Venn diagram" approach, is that at times people misunderstand the role that the association garners.

The example I mentioned earlier with Diana and Luna comes to mind.  

[Deoridhe]

Brass Bell Doll

Part of the issue with the description you mentioned, the "Venn diagram" approach, is that at times people misunderstand the role that the association garners.

The example I mentioned earlier with Diana and Luna comes to mind.

And then you get misappropriation of titles, like calling Freya a moon god because she's female when the Norse moon is male and the Aesir and Vanir have nothing much to do with it.

When I was first getting into paganism - ickle noob Deo me (I was Aesdana, then - that's how long ago this was) one of the older pagans in a forum (the term elder comes to mind in terms of functionality) mentioned in passing that you couldn't just combine traditions - 7 meant nothing in Asatru. At the time I bristled - how could he tell me that! Seven was important to ME and I was ASATRU so it must be important IN ASATRU!

I've learned since then.

We bring our assumptions with us when we move into something new. The something new doesn't care about our assumptions, but we can twist the something new with our assumptions.

One of the assumptions in Western thought is that deities other than YHWH have limited scope and only deal with an element or area of influence. Someone in M&R today mad passing mention of Zeus controlling air and Poseidon controlling water, for example.  

[Bastemhet]

D'oh! I should be more specific. When I talk about the Venn diagram I wasn't meaning that since we know what these gods are traditionally associated with, that their power is necessarily limited only to those areas of influence. Though Kemet had state gods that were recognized throughout, there were yet nome gods and even family gods that the believer would tout as the ultimate supreme deity for them. Though a god might be known for his involvement within a specific area, that is not to say that they could not very well concern themselves with issues outside of their traditional area of expertise.

I think a problem with neopaganism in general, and I think you two were touching upon this here, is that too often people try and find a deity to help them with their specific problem at the time, or they choose a deity associated with an element that they like, and focus on that deity for that reason alone. What one shouldn't forget is that when building a relationship with a deity, it's not too different from building a relationship with a human in this sense; if you ask a god a favor you should acknowledge them as a whole, not only in their role of "god of _____" as they are much more than that, and myths and history can enrich our understandings of these gods. Thanks y'all for the further clarification. 3nodding It's a good thing to keep in mind especially when working with ancient religions that are very far removed from the cultural associations we have today.