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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:18 pm
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Tsuzuki EladrinStarmist Erishkegal EladrinStarmist Yeah. Utter trash. Bad Firefox. Bad! No. Think critically. Bad witch. Bad! Anyone here want to volunteer to review it?
I just ordered it from Chapters/Indigo. Should arrive next week, at which time Eladrin and I will probably look at it together.
I should warn you, though, I'm a rampaging body-conscious gender-fascinated feminist academic. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:25 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:40 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:48 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:51 pm
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Erishkegal Tsuzuki Anyone here want to volunteer to review it? I just ordered it from Chapters/Indigo. Should arrive next week, at which time Eladrin and I will probably look at it together. I should warn you, though, I'm a rampaging body-conscious gender-fascinated feminist academic. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:58 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:23 pm
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Erishkegal LilaMalvae Question... what does dressing up as a man have to do with empowering yourself as a woman? This book is not about empowerment or sex, it's about deviancy. Sexual deviants should not impose their beliefs (no matter how "religious" they claim it to be) upon others. So I guess it's more than just deviancy but also exhibitionism. Just based on the reviews, this book is everything that sexuality and religion is not. You say "deviant" like it's a bad thing. Frankly, I'm disappointed that you're so incredibly judgmental. Admittedly, from what I can see, this isn't a book I'd pick up, but for a very different reason than the one you give. As a long-time v****a Warrior, I'm already plenty empowered and informed, and I understand what she's trying to accomplish. Clearly, you don't. On second thought, maybe I'll pick it up after all. Vote with my wallet, so to speak. Sexuality is an essential part of my spiritual practice, and spirituality is an equally essential part of my sexuality. While I'd never suggest that everyone become intimate friends with her girly-bits, it's certainly worth trying. Strike that -- I would suggest that very thing. On the other hand, I've never experimented with transvestism, frankly, but I can see how experiencing the world as the gender you're not would inform the gender you are in an interesting way. Perhaps instead of judging, you could try understanding sometime. Just a thought.
Hey, instead of accusing me of being judgmental, why don't you follow your own freaking advice?
"Write love songs and love poetry to your v****a, dye your pubes, taste your vaginal secretions, play with your menstrual blood and do it all using the most foul names that you can think of to call your v****a."
That is precisely what I was talking about. Please don't presume that you know anything about me, my life, or my views on things... because you can not possibly understand me by reading the few short comments I've made in the threads of this guild. And likewise I'm sure. So next time, why don't you ask me what I mean instead of ripping my throat out about it and making me feel as if I don't belong here because I happen to think that one business-minded, sexually deviant individual has a very poor outlook on femininity.
Instead of jumping down my throat about how I'm judgmental, why don't you calmly explain to me how my opinion is wrong and I'll try to remedy the misunderstanding without having to subject fellow guild members to an emotional, temper-heavy bitchfest. Perhaps the problem does not lie with my judgment, but with your quickness to defend any deviant or dissenting opinion, no matter what the circumstance?
P.S. I really hate having to be vicious and snarl on these threads, so next time somebody has a bone to pick with me, please have the decency to pm me about it instead of trying to get the whole community "on your side". You can be decent and say, "I really disagree with what you have to say and here's why..." instead of "You're wrong, you're wrong. I'm right, and you're just an intolerant zealot, just like all the GOP, and if you want to belong you better not say anything negative about the way that anybody lives or else you're judgmental and that's just not acceptable". Trying to ostracise me in front of the community does not get your point across to me-- it does not change my opinion. The only thing that it successfuly accomplishes is starting a fight in the middle of a calm discussion.
Whatever happened to "And Harm None..."? |
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:03 pm
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I was going to say something extra about how deviancy is not bad and sex and faith are really great... but publishing some contraversial piece simply for material gain is bad, but it seems that I don't have a right to express my own opinion, so it doesn't really matter. I doubt anybody here wants to hear it anyway. I mean, come on... I'm just a judgmental, ignorant, bigoted zealot who has no pride in her femininity. Oh wait, didn't I get this same argument against me in the thread about Menstrual Blood and Magic? Oh, and I was arguing on the side of women who chose alternatives, wasn't I? Yeah, that's right... but then again I got accused of being single-minded that a woman's gender is her reproductive ability, so maybe I've run into the same problem, haven't I?
Maybe I should just not post anything since every time I try to express myself, I get shot down and made to feel worthless by people who claim to be tolerant, understanding, and non-judgmental.
If you are a v****a Warrior, it's only to hack away at every opinion dissenting to yours.
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:32 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:45 pm
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LilaMalvae Hey, instead of accusing me of being judgmental, why don't you follow your own freaking advice? "Write love songs and love poetry to your v****a, dye your pubes, taste your vaginal secretions, play with your menstrual blood and do it all using the most foul names that you can think of to call your v****a." That is precisely what I was talking about.
Uh, Lila? You're quoting an Amazon reader review. Not a review by a sex educator (as the book's author is), nor for that matter by anyone with traceable credentials in the study of sex, Paganism, or even feminist theory. This does not a cogent argument make. I'm not saying that there's nothing to learn from laymen, but if you're arguing a point, I suggest aiming for more authoritative commentary to back it up.
Quote: Please don't presume that you know anything about me, my life, or my views on things... because you can not possibly understand me by reading the few short comments I've made in the threads of this guild. And likewise I'm sure. So next time, why don't you ask me what I mean instead of ripping my throat out about it
So...what you meant wasn't what you said? No, wait...
Quote: and making me feel as if I don't belong here because I happen to think that one business-minded, sexually deviant individual has a very poor outlook on femininity.
OK, based on repetition, I'm guessing that's really what you meant after all. I won't contest the less-than-ethical business model (what with the stats-skewing and all that), but I'd like to know how you justify calling the author (whom you don't know) of a book you haven't read "sexually deviant". It's like I tell my students: you can make any claim you want, as long as it's properly supported by evidence.
Oh, by the way -- nobody can make you feel anything unless you choose to feel that way. Just saying, is all.
Quote: Instead of jumping down my throat about how I'm judgmental, why don't you calmly explain to me how my opinion is wrong and I'll try to remedy the misunderstanding without having to subject fellow guild members to an emotional, temper-heavy bitchfest.
OK, Lila. You're wrong insofar as you're giving yourself a ton of exercise, what with all the jumping to conclusions. You may or may not be mistaken about the quality of the book, but that's not the issue. Perhaps I'm expecting more than is reasonable in a non-academic context, but your quickness to trash both the book and the author, without actually exposing yourself to either, gets way up my nose.
Why get emotional about it, by the way?
Quote: Perhaps the problem does not lie with my judgment, but with your quickness to defend any deviant or dissenting opinion, no matter what the circumstance?
If accepting the possibility that anyone can have something to say that's worth hearing and affording them the opportunity to do so are crimes, I'm guilty as charged. You'll note that I've never said Sexy Witch is chock-full of brilliant ideas and useful techniques, but rather that I'll look at it and evaluate it for what it is, rather than what I fear it may be. It's disappointing to see so many kneejerk responses to sensationalist commentary.
Quote: P.S. I really hate having to be vicious and snarl on these threads, so next time somebody has a bone to pick with me, please have the decency to pm me about it instead of trying to get the whole community "on your side". You can be decent and say, "I really disagree with what you have to say and here's why..." instead of "You're wrong, you're wrong. I'm right, and you're just an intolerant zealot, just like all the GOP, and if you want to belong you better not say anything negative about the way that anybody lives or else you're judgmental and that's just not acceptable". Trying to ostracise me in front of the community does not get your point across to me-- it does not change my opinion. The only thing that it successfuly accomplishes is starting a fight in the middle of a calm discussion.
I have no need to court favour from this community or any other. If they think I have useful ideas, they'll most likely say so, and if they think I'm full of s**t, they'll line up to hand me a shovel. It's nice when people agree, but it's hardly a driving force in my life. Had you phrased your commentary in respectful terms, or said anything informed, for that matter, I would have been happy to be gentle with you. Instead, you went off half-cocked and relied on sensationalist language and spurious claims.
Oh, and exactly how did I force you to be "vicious"? For that matter, where were you vicious? You've successfully confused me.
Quote: Whatever happened to "And Harm None..."?
Nope, doesn't look like anything relevant to me (for the record, if you're trying to invoke the Rede, you should try knowing what you're talking about). Not that it's relevant to the discussion, either.
Quote: I was going to say something extra about how deviancy is not bad and sex and faith are really great... but publishing some contraversial piece simply for material gain is bad, but it seems that I don't have a right to express my own opinion, so it doesn't really matter. I doubt anybody here wants to hear it anyway. I mean, come on... I'm just a judgmental, ignorant, bigoted zealot who has no pride in her femininity. Oh wait, didn't I get this same argument against me in the thread about Menstrual Blood and Magic? Oh, and I was arguing on the side of women who chose alternatives, wasn't I? Yeah, that's right... but then again I got accused of being single-minded that a woman's gender is her reproductive ability, so maybe I've run into the same problem, haven't I? Maybe I should just not post anything since every time I try to express myself, I get shot down and made to feel worthless by people who claim to be tolerant, understanding, and non-judgmental.
Your choice. I fail to see how your persecution fantasies and rhetorical shortcomings have anything to do with me. |
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:44 am
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Erishkegal, making a perfect demonstration of her signature. rofl
I reserve judgement on this. Mostly because I haven't read it and don't really have anyway to access a copy; if I do I'll give it the once over but will probably pass even if it's not utter tripe because I rarely buy pagan books. I will post my opinion at such date if anyone cares to read it.
Going by the reviews alone, it could go either way. Both sides make excellent points.
I for one agree with the first reviewer in that if the content of the book is as empowering as it has the potential to be (since I haven't read it yet, it's a Schroedinger's cat), the cover was poorly chosen. There seems to indeed be a section recommending that the reader dye her pubic hair given that several reviewers mention it, and that seems at odds with the purported message of "love your body." A "love your body" message should always come with a "be healthy" message, and I'm sure peroxide and dye aren't the best things to have down there. Can we say yeast infection or worse? If she's trying to say loving your body hinges on changing it (and having brown hair is certainly not less healthy than having pink hair, while losing weight in certain situations can be, for example), I don't want it.
Her marketing ploys are also totally shady. Still, this doesn't discount that she might have something of value to say. It's cliche, but not everyone is perfect. Some people have blocks in some places, some people have blocks in others. If you hold others to such high standards that you cannot give a person's words a chance just because he or she has some flaw, fine, but own that.
However, contrary to one negative reviewer said, women's power does not depend solely on men's sexual attraction to them. Sexual attraction is power, yes, but it's not the sole female source. If this person is complaining that the book tries to revamp female power by turning into men, advocating that female power is derived soley from women's status as men's sex objects is surely no better.
And, to the first review quoted in this thread, FireFox didn't pull the term "packing" out of her derriere. It's a pretty common name for it and unless you count a sizeable section of the female-to-male transgendered and butch lesbian populations as sexual deviants, you shouldn't have a problem with it whether you would want to do it yourself or not. The truth is that taking on an alien persona, such as the male identity must be to many women, can do wonders towards acceptance and understanding of yourself. Otherwise we wouldn't do it all the freaking time--plays, movies, make believe, novels, role playing, what have you. According to one review FireFox is only asking the reader to dress as a man to whatever extent the book reccomends for a week. If you can go on a diet for a week and come out unscathed or take up archery, you can try being a man for the same amount of time. It's not sexual deviancy, it's psychology.
As for tasting your own vaginal secretions... I ask women to give this a think. If you've ever performed oral sex on a male lover and didn't like the taste, don't tell me the thought has never crossed your mind that he wouldn't want you to do it so badly if he knew what it tasted like. That aside, our bodies are our own, male and female. Shouldn't you own all that your body has to give? If you still think it's sick, all you have to do is not do it.
On to the self-given gynecological exams some reviewers were worried about. Since they weren't specific, I don't know which instruments FireFox mentioned. Several procedures are perfectly safe to perform on yourself if you know what you're doing--and contrary to these reviewers' fears, it doesn't take a medical degree. Pick up a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves before you read this one, perhaps. Even if her particular instructions are bullshit, at least her intentions are good. Part of the necessary empowerment of women is the removal of the awful gap between women and the medical professionals treating them. After all, 50% of the doctors in this country were in the bottom half of their class, as my mother is so fond of saying. Get educated. Please don't perform an abortion or a Caesarean section on yourself, but you can by all means look at your own damn body.
Oh, and the bit about gazing at your crotch with a mirror. So you want someone else doing excruciatingly intimate things with a part of your body you haven't even seen? It may sound romantic if your other half can probe parts of you that you never even knew existed, but believe me, you will be a much healthier and more well-rounded person physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually, spiritually and any other -allies you can think of if you know your own body. If you're not intimate with yourself, it's very difficult to really be intimate with anyone else.
And really, the bottom line is that if it offends you, stay away from it. It's not going to offend everybody and it may very well help a lot of people. Yes, you have a responsibility to defend people from stupitidy and sheephood, but if you object to this book for the simple reason that you find it offensive, I'm sorry but you're out of line. If you're trying to guard the vulnerable young of the pagan community from fluffiness, get informed and get out there but get informed.
And for the reviewer who said "Even worse; imagine a newbie Witch getting their hands on this book and using it as a basis for their spirituality and religion...": you don't have any more right to dictate their religion than the "fundies" have to dictate yours. Safeguard the youth, sure. Don't brainwash them.
As with any information you take in from the world around you, this book needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. How big a pinch, I can't personally say. Maybe when Erishkegal reads it, she can give us some idea. Your pardon for any typoes; it's 5:30AM and I've gotten four hours of sleep in the last 48. Also any "you"s are more or less general unless they're directed at the reviewers that espoused these statements, not directed at anyone in this guild.
Pheh. I'm going to bed.
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:40 am
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:23 am
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Nuri Wait, so where does the devient part come in?
Here, apparently:
K. A. Blakely If you want a book about how to gaze at your crotch with a mirror, or advice to smell and taste your body secretions, Rhianna Moonmyst This book is more about alternative sexual practices than anything to do with the Craft. We are talking alternative with a capital "A". Write love songs and love poetry to your v****a, dye your pubes, taste your vaginal secretions, play with your menstrual blood and do it all using the most foul names that you can think of to call your v****a. ... Pagan elders have spent decades trying to put the dampers on the stereotyping of witches as sexual deviants, only to have you publish your twisted take on female sexuality, and put it out to the public as part of the Craft. J. Huoy Buy this book if you want to: 1. Dress as a man for a week 2. Bodypaint yourself menstrual blood and consume your vaginal secretions 3. Hear your sacred parts referred to in all instances as you would expect a 13 year old boy in a gym locker to refer to them. 4. Believe it or not, it goes DOWNHILL from here! ... Following the path laid out in this book leads you to something between a punk rocker trying to be gross and someone in a padded room painting the walls with feces. Rainie O'Ryan How can anyone read this book with any kind of seriousness to the subject matter when the forewords are written by porn stars. ... How can any person, who is NOT a medical doctor, suggest that a women use a gynecological examination instrument on themselves? ... The question that she discusses is "Why should I pet the Kitty?", and she is not talking about the feline that resides in your home. Helen Le'Blanc If you were to follow her instruction in this chapter to the letter, you would wind-up lying spread-eagle on your bed using a mirror to scry into your p***y (which now has freshly dyed pubic hair and a new name), surrounded by drawings you made of your v****a in different "moods", while reading love poems too it. I tried to imagine what would happen if I were to put myself in this situation and my husband were to unexpectedly walk into our bedroom... He would probably have me committed or serve me with divorce papers upon seeing me lying on our bed with a clown face painted on my crotch, singing a love song to it, and then, exclaiming "look honey! I'm practicing Witchcraft with Miss. Boo-Boo"! ... Firefox would have been better off releasing this book as a primer for the aspiring porn-star rather than tying her strange brand of sexuality to her lame and uninspiring methods for ritual and magick. ... When its all said and done, Ms. Firefox proves that she is nothing more than a pornographic Doctor Frankenstein running around creating monsters that she cannot control and holds no responsibility for. |
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:35 am
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TheDisreputableDog Erishkegal, making a perfect demonstration of her signature. rofl I reserve judgement on this. Mostly because I haven't read it and don't really have anyway to access a copy; if I do I'll give it the once over but will probably pass even if it's not utter tripe because I rarely buy pagan books. I will post my opinion at such date if anyone cares to read it. Going by the reviews alone, it could go either way. Both sides make excellent points. I for one agree with the first reviewer in that if the content of the book is as empowering as it has the potential to be (since I haven't read it yet, it's a Schroedinger's cat), the cover was poorly chosen. There seems to indeed be a section recommending that the reader dye her pubic hair given that several reviewers mention it, and that seems at odds with the purported message of "love your body." A "love your body" message should always come with a "be healthy" message, and I'm sure peroxide and dye aren't the best things to have down there. Can we say yeast infection or worse? If she's trying to say loving your body hinges on changing it (and having brown hair is certainly not less healthy than having pink hair, while losing weight in certain situations can be, for example), I don't want it.
This is an excellent point you make, DD. All those warnings they put on the packages are for a reason -- harsh chemicals don't go very well with delicate tissues. All the same, if you're careful (I'd suggest having someone you trust help you, and make that someone experienced with chemicals!), it can work out fine. In my pre-academic days, when I was a hairdresser, I was trained in the fine art of colouring near eyes (brows and lashes), which is just as dangerous if you aren't supremely careful.
Quote: Her marketing ploys are also totally shady. Still, this doesn't discount that she might have something of value to say. It's cliche, but not everyone is perfect. Some people have blocks in some places, some people have blocks in others. If you hold others to such high standards that you cannot give a person's words a chance just because he or she has some flaw, fine, but own that. However, contrary to one negative reviewer said, women's power does not depend solely on men's sexual attraction to them. Sexual attraction is power, yes, but it's not the sole female source. If this person is complaining that the book tries to revamp female power by turning into men, advocating that female power is derived soley from women's status as men's sex objects is surely no better.
Agreed. I was horrified by that review. If ever there was a failed understanding of female sexuality (more properly sexualities, but I digress), that was evidence. Based on the reviewer's rhetoric, I'm guessing that by "turning women into men" he means "daring to suggest that women's sexuality might be active rather than passive" or some such thing. Either that, or he's referring to the packing thing, and clearly doesn't get it.
Quote: And, to the first review quoted in this thread, FireFox didn't pull the term "packing" out of her derriere. It's a pretty common name for it and unless you count a sizeable section of the female-to-male transgendered and butch lesbian populations as sexual deviants, you shouldn't have a problem with it whether you would want to do it yourself or not. The truth is that taking on an alien persona, such as the male identity must be to many women, can do wonders towards acceptance and understanding of yourself. Otherwise we wouldn't do it all the freaking time--plays, movies, make believe, novels, role playing, what have you. According to one review FireFox is only asking the reader to dress as a man to whatever extent the book reccomends for a week. If you can go on a diet for a week and come out unscathed or take up archery, you can try being a man for the same amount of time. It's not sexual deviancy, it's psychology.
Exactly. From what I understand, never having tried it myself, quite a few women crossdress (including packing) as a social experiment; others do it because they really get off on it. Whatever the reason, it's a tool like any other. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that stepping into someone else's shoes can contribute to a more nuanced sense of how your own shoes fit (so to speak). And as you say, it's a week. Given diet culture *shudder*, is there any woman who hasn't tried something new for that long?
Quote: As for tasting your own vaginal secretions... I ask women to give this a think. If you've ever performed oral sex on a male lover and didn't like the taste, don't tell me the thought has never crossed your mind that he wouldn't want you to do it so badly if he knew what it tasted like. That aside, our bodies are our own, male and female. Shouldn't you own all that your body has to give? If you still think it's sick, all you have to do is not do it.
Heretic! How dare you suggest that all one has to do is opt out? *snerk* OK, I can't keep that up. Seriously, though -- I have yet to hear an argument that will convince me that being intimate with one's own body has deleterious effects.
Quote: On to the self-given gynecological exams some reviewers were worried about. Since they weren't specific, I don't know which instruments FireFox mentioned. Several procedures are perfectly safe to perform on yourself if you know what you're doing--and contrary to these reviewers' fears, it doesn't take a medical degree. Pick up a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves before you read this one, perhaps. Even if her particular instructions are bullshit, at least her intentions are good. Part of the necessary empowerment of women is the removal of the awful gap between women and the medical professionals treating them. After all, 50% of the doctors in this country were in the bottom half of their class, as my mother is so fond of saying. Get educated. Please don't perform an abortion or a Caesarean section on yourself, but you can by all means look at your own damn body. Oh, and the bit about gazing at your crotch with a mirror. So you want someone else doing excruciatingly intimate things with a part of your body you haven't even seen? It may sound romantic if your other half can probe parts of you that you never even knew existed, but believe me, you will be a much healthier and more well-rounded person physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually, spiritually and any other -allies you can think of if you know your own body. If you're not intimate with yourself, it's very difficult to really be intimate with anyone else.
I couldn't have said it better myself. One of the basic biological differences between women and men is that men can take a look at their genitalia without much difficulty. It's right out there where they can't miss it, while women have to put in a little more work to see themselves. If I can venture into TMI-land, one of my most empowering experiences involved a mirror and the realization that that's what everybody likes so much. We talk a lot about mysteries around here, and while it may not be one of the canonical mysteries of any particular tradition, I can't characterize crotch-gazing as any less than a personal spiritual revelation, and in fact a mystery. I can talk about the circumstances, as I have, but I couldn't even begin to describe the depth of my experience.
The other upshot of having a good, hard look at yourself, of course, is that if you know what's normal for you, it's that much easier to spot what isn't -- which could, in fact, save your life or at least some pain in the end.
Quote: And really, the bottom line is that if it offends you, stay away from it. It's not going to offend everybody and it may very well help a lot of people. Yes, you have a responsibility to defend people from stupitidy and sheephood, but if you object to this book for the simple reason that you find it offensive, I'm sorry but you're out of line. If you're trying to guard the vulnerable young of the pagan community from fluffiness, get informed and get out there but get informed. And for the reviewer who said "Even worse; imagine a newbie Witch getting their hands on this book and using it as a basis for their spirituality and religion...": you don't have any more right to dictate their religion than the "fundies" have to dictate yours. Safeguard the youth, sure. Don't brainwash them.
With you again! The idea that young people -- or anyone, for that matter -- need to be protected from information gets right up my left nostril and dances a little jig. The statement to which you refer reminds me of something funny I once read. It was something to the tune of "sex is to Paganism as cannibalism is to Catholicism: essential to our spiritual practice unless we think anyone's listening". If we're going to talk about fertility and nature, and in many cases incorporate liturgical poetry containing such ideas as "all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals" into our spiritual practices, then perhaps sacred sexuality isn't something from which we have to protect newbies.
In fact, it wasn't until this debate erupted that I realized I might have failed Eladrin Starmist by not making a point of discussing sex in a Pagan context over the last few years. It was an oversight: it never occurred to me to add it to the curriculum (loose as that is to begin with) because it came to me so naturally.
Quote: As with any information you take in from the world around you, this book needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. How big a pinch, I can't personally say. Maybe when Erishkegal reads it, she can give us some idea. Your pardon for any typoes; it's 5:30AM and I've gotten four hours of sleep in the last 48. Also any "you"s are more or less general unless they're directed at the reviewers that espoused these statements, not directed at anyone in this guild. Pheh. I'm going to bed.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't intend to be some sort of guru, offering up my perspective on the book as the last word. I hope I won't be the only one looking at it, actually (well, I know I won't be the only one, since I've already conscripted Eladrin to join me in this endeavour). All that said, I will try to say something useful about it -- maybe several useful things, if I'm having a good day. |
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