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 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:52 pm
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Celeblin Galadeneryn Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much. That doesn't mean I have to like, accept or respond well to their separate morality. XD But yes, it certainly may not be rape to them. Not like or not respond well, sure, but what depending on what you mean by accept, maybe not so much. Denying their seperate morality doesn't make it go away, but I could be misunderstanding what you mean.
I usually use accept in terms of "accept and move on" or "refuse to accept and fight back"
I guess a good example would be Void. It's an eater. As far as Aspects go, it would seem to be pretty characteristically heinous, reducing things to their lowest state of order and sucking it all up into its vacuum maw. One could call that murder (as Void is more or less sentient) but really, that is just what Void is. An Entropic Aspect that breaks and devours. So our morality really doesn't apply. It's a whole different ballgame.
I wouldn't like getting nommed by Void. I wouldn't respond well for sure. In my case, I also wouldn't accept it and would fight back with every inch of my being and power. Sure I might fail anyways, but I would go down fighting with a chance (however tiny) of escape.
Same deal with gods or goddesses trying to overwhelm my capacity to reason and consent. I would do everything in my power to fight tooth and nail and flame, viciously and unmercifully, to prevent what I perceive as a violation of my Self. To be honest, within Etherism, just stripping the capacity to consent from someone (without prior consent to do so) to begin with is a pretty hefty violation.
So my own morals would dictate that I fight in any way I can. Hence, not accepting.
Me and language sometimes do this thing where we work together weird. sweatdrop It seemed to be a perfect word to me for it when I said it, but I guess not. |
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:53 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:53 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:57 pm
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Celeblin Galadeneryn Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Or at least, that's how the Greeks saw it. Pesky cultural differences, making it hard to draw parallels and see things eye to eye. XD It's a little more than that. I mean, it still wasn't cool for your average Greek to rape the neighbour's daughter and claim it was all good because he provided her with a healthy child. There are things the Gods can do that we just plain can't get away with.
Well isn't that cultural in and of itself? I mean, I wouldn't let a god get away with something like that. I may not be powerful enough (yet) to truly make a deity pay for it, but I would certainly try.
Although, I am a bit atypical, even for Western culture, aren't I? |
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:59 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:00 pm
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Recursive Paradox "accept and move on" or "refuse to accept and fight back"
Though, really, refusing isn't so much the crime. You can piss the Gods off, just generally they aren't going to like you for it. As Nuri says, there can be amends. Let's face it, Heroes are dicks, and as such, the Iliad and Odyssey are full of instances of Heroes saying sorry for their dickery.
Nuri's words are a highly common formula of worship, however another one would be "I have done x for you, it is now right for you to do y for me."
Dickery happens and isn't necessarily an immediate own in the face coming your way.
Hubris is quite a different matter. But that's a particular type of pissing off. |
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:02 pm
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Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Or at least, that's how the Greeks saw it. Pesky cultural differences, making it hard to draw parallels and see things eye to eye. XD It's a little more than that. I mean, it still wasn't cool for your average Greek to rape the neighbour's daughter and claim it was all good because he provided her with a healthy child. There are things the Gods can do that we just plain can't get away with. Well isn't that cultural in and of itself? I mean, I wouldn't let a god get away with something like that. I may not be powerful enough (yet) to truly make a deity pay for it, but I would certainly try. |
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:05 pm
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:34 am
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Celeblin Galadeneryn People did try. They largely got owned in the face. In the Iliad we're actually told that Hera decided she wasn't going to take Zeus' s**t anymore and tried to overthrow him, teaming up with ******** Athena of all people, however thanks to Thetis that plan got totally owned in face.
That sort of implies to me that it was a general attitude of "well this sucks, what a d**k, but I can't do anything about it" Or was that just the minority who didn't have the view of "it's the gods, they do what they do"?
Celeblin Galadeneryn Recursive Paradox "accept and move on" or "refuse to accept and fight back" Well, with in the Hellenic system, good luck with that. sweatdrop
Could you wish me luck in the Etheristic System too? sweatdrop
I'm barely on the level of an Essence and the Laws of Mutual Respect are sort of contingent on having the power (or allies with the power) to defend yourself.
Star is pretty hardcore, but Void? Yeah Void eats stars for breakfast. I was lucky when I first touched Void. I doubt I'll be lucky again, which is why I refuse to directly channel Void. And really, many of the Aspects are so alien from us that it's easy to run into the risk of offending someone and getting my face owned. In the face. Without even knowing why.
Etherism is not a comforting path...
Quote: Though, really, refusing isn't so much the crime. You can piss the Gods off, just generally they aren't going to like you for it. As Nuri says, there can be amends. Let's face it, Heroes are dicks, and as such, the Iliad and Odyssey are full of instances of Heroes saying sorry for their dickery.
*shrug*
The sentient Aspects and Essences sometimes need amends for ******** too.
Quote: Nuri's words are a highly common formula of worship, however another one would be "I have done x for you, it is now right for you to do y for me."
That latter one would be my preference. XD And considering the usage of spiritual barter in Etherism, I'm well capable and willing to play the do a goodwill favor for more goodwill favors game with dangerous folk like gods.
If I ever was in a position to work with the Hellenic deities (or any similar dieties) would the approach of doing some work for them to establish a path to mention the latter response be a good idea? It seems like it.
Quote: Hubris is quite a different matter. But that's a particular type of pissing off.
Define hubris in Greek terms. |
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:30 am
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Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn People did try. They largely got owned in the face. In the Iliad we're actually told that Hera decided she wasn't going to take Zeus' s**t anymore and tried to overthrow him, teaming up with ******** Athena of all people, however thanks to Thetis that plan got totally owned in face. That sort of implies to me that it was a general attitude of "well this sucks, what a d**k, but I can't do anything about it" Or was that just the minority who didn't have the view of "it's the gods, they do what they do"?
There's even points where fighting the Gods is ok. You're totally not going to win, but you can make a good showing at least. Diomedes attacks Aphrodite in the Iliad, she being the only Goddess Athena allows him to attack *coughmostlybecauseshe'sontheothersidecough* (she's a rank b***h in the Iliad in general. Most of the time I like her, but she's just so ******** easy to hate there. I can see why Fiddler wanted to say she's whining about the Contest of Paris, even if we don't have any proof that she is.) He even wounds her to my knowledge, but fortunately for him she's not there to kick a**, just to get her son Aeneas off the battlefield because Diomedes I believe has just crushed his spine or shattered his ribcage or broke his hip, you know, something drastic (don't worry, he gets better.), so she kind of just runs off and emos to her mother about being stabbed.
Quote: Celeblin Galadeneryn Recursive Paradox "accept and move on" or "refuse to accept and fight back" Well, with in the Hellenic system, good luck with that. sweatdrop Could you wish me luck in the Etheristic System too? sweatdrop I'm barely on the level of an Essence and the Laws of Mutual Respect are sort of contingent on having the power (or allies with the power) to defend yourself. Star is pretty hardcore, but Void? Yeah Void eats stars for breakfast. I was lucky when I first touched Void. I doubt I'll be lucky again, which is why I refuse to directly channel Void. And really, many of the Aspects are so alien from us that it's easy to run into the risk of offending someone and getting my face owned. In the face. Without even knowing why. Etherism is not a comforting path...
Quote: Quote: Though, really, refusing isn't so much the crime. You can piss the Gods off, just generally they aren't going to like you for it. As Nuri says, there can be amends. Let's face it, Heroes are dicks, and as such, the Iliad and Odyssey are full of instances of Heroes saying sorry for their dickery. *shrug* The sentient Aspects and Essences sometimes need amends for ******** too.
Quote: Quote: Nuri's words are a highly common formula of worship, however another one would be "I have done x for you, it is now right for you to do y for me." That latter one would be my preference. XD And considering the usage of spiritual barter in Etherism, I'm well capable and willing to play the do a goodwill favor for more goodwill favors game with dangerous folk like gods. If I ever was in a position to work with the Hellenic deities (or any similar dieties) would the approach of doing some work for them to establish a path to mention the latter response be a good idea? It seems like it.
Hektor was Zeus' most beloved. He ensured Zeus' altar was never empty. Zeus loved him more than any other warrior there, and this includes people like Sarpedon, his own goddamn son. Look at how well that turned out for Hektor. sweatdrop
Quote: Quote: Hubris is quite a different matter. But that's a particular type of pissing off. Define hubris in Greek terms.
So to conclude my rambling, Greek hubris, as far as hubris in myth goes, is putting upon yourself the importance reserved only for the Gods, or even saying you are better than the Gods. |
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:12 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:45 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:52 pm
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Celeblin Galadeneryn TheDisreputableDog Interjection: Celeblin, I love the way you describe these stories. I've only read some of the Iliad, but "...so she kind of just runs off and emos to her mother about being stabbed" is awesome. xd If I'm going to explain them, I might as well entertain myself while I do. xd And she does go off and emo to her mom.
You could probably get retellings like that published pretty easy, if you wanted to. There's a nice market for stuff like that, because it's been discovered that teenagers DO read, if what they're reading doesn't use language that bores the pants off them.
Jus' sayin'. ninja |
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:04 pm
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:24 pm
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Molly Mollusca maenad nuri one of the more classical definitions of rape was more along the lines of abduction. As for consent, sometimes there was more implied than other times. Not to up on the specifics -- and it must always be kept in mind that the gods morals are not needfully our own. Abduction as we know it, or more in the line of "I love you, I don't want to pay money to marry you so I'll abduct you." kind of way? I know the Morals of a God might not be our own, however I just feel that as someone who was raped, it is not healthy for myself to work with, give honor too or sacrifice anything to a God who is a rapist or approves of rape. That would be conflicting with my morals. (Or my understanding of the word morals is not correct?) I'll just leave the Greek pantheon alone until I'm sure which Gods are save to work with and who not. Was rape as big in other mythology? (Helpful hints to good sources are still appreciated. ) |
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