How hard is it....

[Anorectic-Pandas]

Xeigrich

Anorectic-Pandas

I have studied Kanji.
I am just asking opinions of those who have learned/ tried to learn Kanji.

I have a friend, Mimi, whose father is a businessman who relocated here when Mimi was like 13.

I actually discovered Japanese through her (she would speak it to her family).

A long while ago, I asked her to write some sentences down in Japanese.
HLYJESUS.
They looked so complicated and difficult.

I know that I can and will have to learn the highest amount of Kanji that is possible.

I just reaaaaaaaly don't want to do it.


I've heard about Furigana.
Ha. That might be the way I have to leanr Kanji.

But think of it like this-
The natural- speaking Japanese spend what, 12-14 years at school learning Kanji? Doesn't that seem to be too much trouble?

I don't see why they cant just use Hiragana or Katakana, but adding spaces to keep words seperate from another.

You say in the first post "How hard is it to learn Japanese Kanji?... I've heard that it really isn't that hard, but I'm still wondering." That to me sounds like you've never really studied Japanese. And I mean STUDIED, not sat down a few times and tried memorizing some random words from a language book. I'm not saying you haven't done this, but the way you worded your post makes it sound like you have don't have enough real experience with the Japanese language to make a judgment for yourself.

Furigana is EXTREMELY useful, but should only be used as a stepping stool to actually learning the kanji, just like using PinYin in Chinese to learn the tones and syllables. Try not to depend on furigana, because you won't see it except in places where younger audiences are expected. Once you get used to learning kanji, you shouldn't even need furigana, as by then you should have developed a system that works well for you.

Japanese school systems are intense and put heavy strain and stress on students in every aspect, so learning a few thousand kanji is just one more task. And it's not like they spend 12 years learning NOTHING but kanji, it's thrown in along with everything else. Just like how native English speakers learn vocabulary (and words we'll never have to use) all through out our 12 required years.

Every Japanese person I've mentioned this to (the thing about dropping Kanji and adding spaces) has said that the reason they still use kanji is that since Japanese is a syllable-based language with a lot of redundant sounds, having kanji takes a lot of the guesswork out of homonyms. Apparently, some Japanese speakers even draw the shape of a kanji in the air with their finger when someone doesn't understand what they mean. That, and older Japanese would never allow such a thing.



ALSO: I'd like to say that, for me and most of my friends learning Chinese or Japanese or Korean, the hardest part about Chinese characters regardless of what language they're being used in, is learning to use a freaking Chinese-character Dictionary. I've personally studied Japanese for about 6 or 7 years now, as well as having taken two Mandarin classes over the last year... And I STILL can't look up a single character in less than 10 minutes if I can't use "stroke recognition" software or if I don't already know the reading or pinyin for the character.

To make things worse, many characters can look completely different in different fonts or handwriting styles, so you'll have to learn what character parts are commonly interchanged.

I haven't studied, in the sense that I do not constantly try to work through sentences, or study hard or complex grammar.

I do try to study over some basic grammar/ words.
I have been looking at Japanese Kanji for a while, I have just never tried to learn any.

The book I have has mnemonic devices, but they really don't make sense.
Like the Kanji for four is the symbol of left (or right, I forget) hand, and the symbol for mouth. So the mnemonic devices is right/ left hand covering mouth.

I do no learn this way.
I learn by memorizing, and teaching myself to call it back from memory when needed.

If I learned the way some of you do, I would not know anything- I can't do it.

 

[Xeigrich]

There's a difference between "memorization" and "rote memorization."

When you "memorize" it just means you learn to recall something without any external clues like cheat notes or something. Unfortunately, most people tend to assume that rote memorization is the only real way to memorize something, and for clarification and those who don't know, rote memorization is a technique involving meaningless repetition. If you've ever had a teacher tell you to "write each vocabulary word 3 times each" then that was an attempt at rote memorization. Another example is like what Anorectic-Pandas said his brother did -- Write a kanji 100 times or until you can write it without having to check your notes.

Rote memorization is notoriously inefficient an ineffective. It's like trying to grill a steak using the hot underside of your laptop. Sure, it might work and with a lot of effort it probably will work, but a lot is likely to go wrong in the process, and it won't produce the results quite as easily as a more effective or appropriate method.

Rote memorization is also one of the top reasons many people have trouble in school. Most people are not even aware that there are more effective methods, since lazy or undertrained school teachers tend to use teaching techniques that are long outdated.

I personally can't remember anything by rote memorization. I'm not sure if it's a psychological or genetic thing, but absolutely nothing will stick in my memory unless I use some sort of meaningful association even if I have to use mnemonics or resort to seemingly silly tactics. Even when I learn something new unintentionally, it's always due to at least a subconscious level of association.


Everyone learns by memorizing. If you didn't memorize it, it wouldn't count as learning, really. Mnemonics and other memorization methods are just tools to help people memorize.


And one last thing: mnemonics don't have to make sense. Research has even shown that sometimes the crazier the mnemonic, the more likely you are to remember it. But if you approach mnemonics with the attitude that "I can't learn using this method" then of course it won't work.  

[Pasty DeVrays]

Anorectic-Pandas

"You want to learn Japanese? Kanji for 'Gyaku' 100 times. No stopping. I don't care if your hand hurts. You think the Japanese care if your hand hurts?"

That's a fantastic quote.
It made my day. biggrin

 

[Anorectic-Pandas]

Xeigrich

It's like trying to grill a steak using the hot underside of your laptop.

Ha I find this very funny.

Xeigrich

And one last thing: mnemonics don't have to make sense. Research has even shown that sometimes the crazier the mnemonic, the more likely you are to remember it. But if you approach mnemonics with the attitude that "I can't learn using this method" then of course it won't work.

This is exactly the problem- it doesn't make sense.
I've tried mnemonics.
They really don't help me unless I can understand the mnemonic itself.
If I try to remember a Kanji by 'Left (or right, I forget) hand covering mouth', I will never be good at recalling it.
My brain just doesn't work that way.

 

[Homurakitsune]

Ooooooooh. Thanks for the definition of rote memorization. My dad used to make me study like that and it never got me anywhere, now I know why. Thank you. ^_^