Actually a Wiccan

[childsdragon]

I have been practicing Wicca, studying, observing Sabbats, Esbats, everything for over 10 years. I practicaly grew up with Wiccan beliefs, though I had to teach my self, with help and encouragement from my mom. I self dedicated, read every book I could find and researched my family history. (My mom is adopted and from what I found here ancestors might have been practicing pagans hundreds of years ago) One of my questions is initiation into a coven necessary to call oneself a Wiccan? And the other, does lineage really matter? I'd believe that the initiation issue is like a Christian without a Church. They are still Christian, have all the same beliefs, they just don't belong anywhere. And the linage thing, does that matter too? I'm just curious.  

[TeaDidikai]

There are two standard Info dumps that address your points:

Deoridhe

Wicca is a mystery tradition begun by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s. He based it on some ancient folklore, took the holidays of the Celts and the Norse and combined them, and created a magical system in the style of Kabalism. Wicca assumes a magical system based on five elements (earth, air, fire, water, spirit) and four directions. It is ditheistic and strictly divides gods and goddesses, as well as men and women, by characteristics associated with each. The Wiccan God is a diune figure, the Oak and Holly King who dies in the fall and is reborn in the spring. The Wiccan Goddess is a triune figure associated with the moon; she is the mother/maiden/crone figure. The Wiccan Rede, believed by some to be written by Doreen Valiente, includes many of the assumptions and indicates the worldview of this religion. When Valiente left the initial coven created by Gardner, he wrote the 161 Laws of the Wicca to expand on the earlier created Wiccan Rede.

More recent authors have bought into the provably false claims of Margaret Murry that Wicca is an ancient religion practiced by Northern Europeans. Although Wicca has a superficial relationship with several of the religions found in Northern Europe, it is very distinctive in a wide variety of ways and combines different traditions in a way that was never historically done. Wicca's modern creation is well established, but it does not mean the religion is without merit. However, as a mystery tradition, the only way to truly become a Wiccan is to find someone within the tradition to teach you, usually via a coven, and advance to the higher mysteries. Any published books will only cover the basics of Wicca enough to get people curious; these published books also frequently do not disclose they are only giving part of the story, leading to many people becoming confused as to the real nature of Wicca.

Reagun Ban

I think, in order to best discuss wether or not you're entitled to call yourself Wiccan, we need to comment on what the legitimacy of the Coven is and therefore the legitimacy of you as a Wiccan. If a Coven has lineage, it is legitimate. Lineage is a direct line back to Gardner's coven. Many argue this is irrelevant. They are wrong. This is not an opinion. It is a statement of simple fact. Once a lineaged Coven initiates you, you can call yourself Wiccan because you are Wiccan. You have been brought into Wicca by the sacred rite of initiation.

Gardner did not release all of his religion in written format. He was paranoid. He believed the eebil xians were out to get him, I believe he was a paranoid man with a need to feel self important and the secrets gave him that. Regardless, these secrets have not been revealed and are not available to outsiders. Admittedly, all you have is my word and the word of pretty much all lineaged covens. So, again, we come to legitimacy. Those who are initiated, and claim to be privvy to some secrets, say those who aren't initiated aren't privvy to these secrets.

It has been raised that all we have is the word of Initiates that there are secrets. I am no longer Wiccan. There are secrets. I was initiated. There are secrets. I left the path. There are secrets. If there were no secrets, then I was lied to before my initiation. Why would I, as a non-wiccan, help to uphold a lie I was told when lying is inherently bad?

Those who can trace a direct line of teaching to the religion's creator claim that those who cannot are missing vital information, the information which actually makes you a Wiccan. Do they lord it over the outer court practitioners, never in my experience or the experience of any I've ever met. These secrets don't make you a better person, they grant you a true understanding of what it means to be Wicca. They are, in essence, a large part of the Religion itself.

"But you're lording it over us now" you say. Doesn't matter because a) I'm not Wiccan and b) I'm just telling you that they exist not lording them over you. I'm asking "but how can you call yourself Wiccans when you don't know what Wicca is" not saying "ha, you're lesser beings. I am so much better than you because I know the secrets. You shall never know them mortals ha ha ha ha"

"But I believe in the Lord and Lady" you may say. "So ******** what", I say. Have you been to a lineaged coven meeting? If the answer is no, then how do you know the Lord and Lady you follow are the same as the Lord and Lady of Wicca. Because it's in a book? So are the Valar. Because it's in a book on Wicca? Any true author is limited in what they can tell you by the 161 Rules of Wicca and by the Initiatory Oaths. If they are claiming to reveal the secrets of Wicca then they are claiming to break an Oath. Bear that in mind when reading their material. I realise that just because they're Oathbreakers doesn't mean they're lying about the secrets of wicca, I'm just explaining the facts.

If you haven't been initiated by a lineaged coven, you don't know what Wicca is. You can argue against this til you're blue in the face but you may as well be arguing that squares are circles. Be a pagan, be an ecclectic, but neither of these will make you a Wiccan. There is no need to be a Wiccan. I'm not. Wicca was too constricting in some ways and not enough in others. It offered me none of the answers to the questions I was asking.

Stop reading into it that my telling you you're not wiccan is me telling you you're bad people, bad pagans, that you're faith is flawed or wrong. All I'm telling you is that without initiation, you can't possibly know what Wicca is.

Can you claim to be a Catholic Priest without being ordained? Can you claim to be a Hindu Brahman or a Buddhist monk without the neccessary training? Believing in the Torah does not make you a Rabbi. Why the ******** would believing in the Lord and Lady make you a Wiccan?

Now- that said, your path isn't invalidated just because of the title used. It's the title that needs to change, not your faith per se.  

[Narcotic Cupcake]

Wicca is suppose to be this 'mystery religion'-thingy, ya know ? So, well you need ta know these secrets to be Wiccan apparently, and ya need to be in a coven that can trace back it's lineage because well if they can't, they could be tellin' ya lies, things that aren't really the secrets of Wicca. Or so I'm assuming.

 

[iRTsuki]

i personally dont think lineage is necessary, i also dont think a coven is either.  

[maenad nuri]

AisuruTsuki

i personally dont think lineage is necessary, i also dont think a coven is either.

Why not?  

[iRTsuki]

first is coven practice i think its great but since its not there for everyone and not right for everyone i dont think less of someone who isnt initiated in one. About lineage all everyone does is fight over it. Why fight over where it began instead of what its supposed to teach and what we are supposed to learn from it. not who started it. yes its good to know your history but by dwelling on it so much it just causes fights and in a way i think it holds people back because they argue instead of discuss. somthing like that. i could go on but i would prolly make less sense.  

[Narcotic Cupcake]

AisuruTsuki

first is coven practice i think its great but since its not there for everyone and not right for everyone i dont think less of someone who isnt initiated in one.

But if you're never initiated into one, then how can your truely call yourself Wiccan if you do not learn these suppose mysteries that make Wicca, Wicca ?

AisuruTsuki

About lineage all everyone does is fight over it. Why fight over where it began instead of what its supposed to teach and what we are supposed to learn from it. not who started it. yes its good to know your history but by dwelling on it so much it just causes fights and in a way i think it holds people back because they argue instead of discuss. somthing like that. i could go on but i would prolly make less sense.

I think Covens need to be able to trace back their lineage so you know they are qualified (I guess...) to teach you, to practice with you, or whatever. I mean if you could join a Coven, that couldn't trace it's lineage back, and still call yourself a Wiccan, who knows how many 'weapons for Spirit/Ether' we'd have, and what not.

 

[TheDisreputableDog]

AisuruTsuki

About lineage all everyone does is fight over it. Why fight over where it began instead of what its supposed to teach and what we are supposed to learn from it. not who started it. yes its good to know your history but by dwelling on it so much it just causes fights and in a way i think it holds people back because they argue instead of discuss. somthing like that. i could go on but i would prolly make less sense.

It's to preserve the bloodlines, if you will. If the lineage of a coven couldn't be verified, or if it has no lineage, then how do you know whether the mysteries it eventually teaches you are correct? And since this is an important part of the religion, it's important that everyone gets it right. It's a matter of heritage and qualifications. You can't opt yourself into a family tradition if you aren't part of the family; it's the same with Wicca.  

[maenad nuri]

AisuruTsuki

first is coven practice i think its great but since its not there for everyone and not right for everyone i dont think less of someone who isnt initiated in one.

Thankfully, you can also be initated in a coven...and leave that coven. It doesn't invalidate the initation. Also, a single person can initiate into Wicca, up to whatever degree they hold.

Quote:

About lineage all everyone does is fight over it. Why fight over where it began instead of what its supposed to teach and what we are supposed to learn from it. not who started it. yes its good to know your history but by dwelling on it so much it just causes fights and in a way i think it holds people back because they argue instead of discuss. somthing like that. i could go on but i would prolly make less sense.

I've been privy to a few discussions on lineage that go beyond "you must have it" and the way they are typically done is to trace your history, to trace the Mysteries back to the beginning, so that the whole of Wicca has similar shared experiences. Which is why some lineages break off from Wicca-become some other new, valid religion-their shared experiences aren't the same.

It's not really dwelling, but insurance, history and community all in one.  

[CuAnnan]

childsdragon

I practicaly grew up with Wiccan beliefs, though I had to teach my self, with help and encouragement from my mom.

You can't grow up with Wiccan beliefs unless your parents are wiccan, or sign a contract of secrecy and allow you become Wiccan with the guidance of a coven.

childsdragon

I self dedicated, read every book I could find

None of which would have taught you the mysteries of the Wiccan faith.

childsdragon

and researched my family history.

What, exactly, does that have to do with Wicca.

childsdragon

(My mom is adopted and from what I found here ancestors might have been practicing pagans hundreds of years ago)

So? So were everyone's, ok, some were Jewish, but mostly everyone...

childsdragon

One of my questions is initiation into a coven necessary to call oneself a Wiccan?

Yes

childsdragon

And the other, does lineage really matter?

Yes

childsdragon

I'd believe that the initiation issue is like a Christian without a Church. They are still Christian, have all the same beliefs, they just don't belong anywhere.

Christianity is a revealed religion. No secrets, no mysteries revealed only to the initiates, no oaths not to reveal certain key bits of information.
Wicca is a mystery religion. Secrets, mysteries released only to the initiates, oaths not to reveal certain key bits of information.

childsdragon

And the linage thing, does that matter too? I'm just curious.

Yes.  

[saint dreya]

childsdragon

I have been practicing Wicca, studying, observing Sabbats, Esbats, everything for over 10 years. I practicaly grew up with Wiccan beliefs, though I had to teach my self, with help and encouragement from my mom. I self dedicated, read every book I could find and researched my family history. (My mom is adopted and from what I found here ancestors might have been practicing pagans hundreds of years ago) One of my questions is initiation into a coven necessary to call oneself a Wiccan? And the other, does lineage really matter? I'd believe that the initiation issue is like a Christian without a Church. They are still Christian, have all the same beliefs, they just don't belong anywhere. And the linage thing, does that matter too? I'm just curious.

how does one know what they are practicing is wicca unless an initiated wiccan tells them?  

[iRTsuki]

still doesnt change my mind because i continue to learn and ask questions. because this is how i like to put it. who made the first christian. I asked someone once for a name of who created it and they couldnt answer me. but if i sat and argued the lineage of that then im missing the point of what it was supposed to teach. Thats how i see it but with wicca.  

[Sivirs]

AisuruTsuki

still doesnt change my mind because i continue to learn and ask questions. because this is how i like to put it. who made the first christian. I asked someone once for a name of who created it and they couldnt answer me. but if i sat and argued the lineage of that then im missing the point of what it was supposed to teach. Thats how i see it but with wicca.

You're avoiding the questions and trying to put up really weak straw men.

Christianity is a revealed religion. Wicca is not. Lineage does not matter in Christianity because anyone can read the Bible and anyone is allowed to tell anyone else about anything they read in it.

I'll repeat the question you're avoiding: How do you know what Wicca is without the initiation? How do you learn Wicca without coming in contact with any Wiccans or Wiccan materials?

Quit dodging the bullet.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

AisuruTsuki

still doesnt change my mind because i continue to learn and ask questions. because this is how i like to put it. who made the first christian. I asked someone once for a name of who created it and they couldnt answer me. but if i sat and argued the lineage of that then im missing the point of what it was supposed to teach. Thats how i see it but with wicca.

But, as Reagun said, the mechanics of Christianity are different than the mechanics of Wicca. You can't really make the comparison. It's apples to oranges. They're both clearly fruit, but one's an apple and one is an orange.

EDIT: "But as Reagun" and now Sivirs, because she posted before I did.  

[Sivirs]

TheDisreputableDog

It's apples to oranges. They're both clearly fruit, but one's an apple and one is an orange.

It's rote brainwashing type stuff. The quip is "Who initiated the first Wiccan?" and people repeat that everywhere like it's going to sufficiently explain everything. It's kind of a scary little robot march, right along with "Never again the Burning Times" and other fluff quotables on the list. Nobody who says it really appears to understand why it falls through so miserably, but they get a certain satisfaction out of saying it, like they've stumbled upon a great truth of some sort.

Well geezus, who gave the first doctor the first medical diploma? Who taught at the first medical school?

I guess a diploma isn't necessary to be a doctor, because the first ever doctor had nobody to get his license from?

That's it, Sivirs, M.D., at your service.