A question if i may Satanism relating to Paganism

[Ray Relo Nikiv]

a few days ago a friend and I were talking about the Paganism and he stated that it was a Satanist way of life no matter how I tryed to tell him other wise he was determined to prove it was he is a big time devote Christian but usually he and I don't argue over religion so can any one give me something to disprove his claims I have tried to reason with him but he still thinks i am wrong

I figure if there are others who think the same as i then he may change his mind

so tell me what relation is there between Satanism and Paganism  

[kage no neko]

Depends on what kind of Satanist you're talking about. Some have more in common than others. Also depends on what kind of Pagan you're talking about, since it's an umbrella term and could mean all sorts of different beliefs.

But I'd go with the whole "not worshiping God" thing.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I feel it is likely that he believes Mat 12:30 shows that anyone who isn't Christian is against Christianity. Because this is not a reasoned argument, undermining it intellectually isn't likely to get the results you desire.  

[Deoridhe]

What the Doll said. heart

Also, ironically, some aspects of Wicca and eclectic neo-paganism are derived from the Christian concept of their "opposite". The ideas of having thirteen members, using the pentacle, having Sabbaths, etc... are likely to have come from the Witch's Hammer or from the Ceremonial Magic closed traditions beginning around when Wicca did.  

[Ray Relo Nikiv]

well like I worship the gods of fire, and war he considers me a satanist but i kept telling him other wise like I tell him i do not worship Satan in an way or form yet he believs that even if i don't worship satan but i worship some other god other than Catholic Jehovah god it makes me a satan follower which has me a bit confused cuz Vulcan the god of forge(fire) is not in any way in my belief related to hell or satan for what i know he sits atop a mountain forging Swords or other objects made from flame  

[Deoridhe]

Raygnar Havon

well like I worship the gods of fire,

Gods of ...fire? Don't they mind you lumping them all together like that?

Raygnar Havon

and war he considers me a satanist but i kept telling him other wise like I tell him i do not worship Satan in an way or form yet he believs that even if i don't worship satan but i worship some other god other than Catholic Jehovah god it makes me a satan follower which has me a bit confused

Nah, it's pretty consistent with a lot of Christian's understandings. All other deities are representatives of Satan.

Raygnar Havon

cuz Vulcan the god of forge(fire) is not in any way in my belief related to hell or satan for what i know he sits atop a mountain forging Swords or other objects made from flame

I believe he was inside, and not so much sitting as leaning. I'm not sure why a god who happens to be a Master Smith would be called a fire god per se, though. o.O;; He is more than his abilities, after all.  

[Ray Relo Nikiv]

well there are about three or more dieties attributed to fire not counting the ones that were given a different name do to region like Mars and Ares which are the same person. and Vulcan is just one of the gods of fire just as Vesta is the goddess of Fire Vulcan is as well but he is more associated with his forge than the actual element but he is still the god of Fire and Forge
but any ways thats what i don't understand because Satan isn't even a god in what I have learned Satan or Lucifer was once an Angel in fact he was the Angel the first angel created by the so said Jehovah god as the story goes as i heard it from my father Lucifer, when god created man, thought that they should control them show them how to do and live thier lives god said no he gave man free will to choose for them selves so outraged that Lucifer had to bow to a mortal he waged war against god taking half of the other angels and fought against god and his angels the one who led gods angels if i remember right was Gabriel well Gabriel and his angels triumphed over Lucifer and Jehovah being a merciful person said if you wish to rule then you shall do so in hell and like that hell was created and Lucifer was cast down along with the other fallen angels of course weather this story is true is beyond me my father is catholic so i don't know but with thaat lucifer was given many names among them Satan and thus Lucifer is not even a god he is just a powerful fallen angel so with that I have to ask why is it then that christians believe that a god as great of a being such as Ares or Apollo or Vulcan and Vesta could be linked to being consorts of the devil himself is mind alteringly confusing cuz when meditating and in my own spiritual links with one of the gods never did i have the feeling of evil and benevolence but more of a neutral feeling for i know vulcan isn't all that much of a goody two shoes he has his own flaws ((forgive me Vulcan for these words)) but yeah  

[Deoridhe]

Raygnar Havon

Mars and Ares

No, Mars and Ares are not the same. One one related to and invoked for fertility as well; the other has just aspects of war and destruction in his life. While there is a lot of overlap in the Greek and Roman pantheons, but they're not 100%.

Raygnar Havon

and Vulcan is just one of the gods of fire just as Vesta is the goddess of Fire Vulcan is as well but he is more associated with his forge than the actual element but he is still the god of Fire and Forge

The casting of gods as "of something" is a post-Christian idea. It is not central to the pagan religions. Gods are more than a list of attributes.

Raygnar Havon

but any ways thats what i don't understand because Satan isn't even a god in what I have learned Satan or Lucifer was once an Angel in fact he was the Angel the first angel created by the so said Jehovah god

There is some debate on that, actually, if you look at the actual Jewish and Christian mythology. Lucifer and Satan might not be the same at all, and titles like "the Morning Star" actually apply to Jesus as well as unnamed figures. The mythology of the Angels is a lot less clear than your indications, and a lot is post-mythology - that is folk traditions instead of the religious lore per se.

Raygnar Havon

god as great of a being such as Ares or Apollo or Vulcan and Vesta could be linked to being consorts of the devil himself is mind alteringly confusing

Not really. Most Christians have embraced YHWH (or Ahura Mazda) as a sole figure. That makes any who counter him obvious agents of the opposing force (which in Judaism and Islam is not as powerful nor necessarily has his own realm). Part of the argument that the Christian god is actually Ahura Mazda is that he has an opposing force equally powerful, as YHWH didn't but Ahura Mazda did.

Raygnar Havon

cuz when meditating and in my own spiritual links with one of the gods never did i have the feeling of evil and benevolence but more of a neutral feeling for i know vulcan isn't all that much of a goody two shoes he has his own flaws ((forgive me Vulcan for these words)) but yeah

If you need to ask his forgiveness for speaking, why speak of him?  

[Gho the Girl]

Raygnar Havon

a few days ago a friend and I were talking about the Paganism and he stated that it was a Satanist way of life no matter how I tryed to tell him other wise he was determined to prove it was he is a big time devote Christian but usually he and I don't argue over religion so can any one give me something to disprove his claims I have tried to reason with him but he still thinks i am wrong

I figure if there are others who think the same as i then he may change his mind

so tell me what relation is there between Satanism and Paganism

If he's the type of Christian that believes that all other religions are the work of the Devil, you're out of luck there.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

If Satan is an advocate of opposition, then it would make sense that some people would take any opposition to conversion as a sign of Satan's influence, wouldn't it?  

[Ray Relo Nikiv]

hmm maybe but all the same it has bothered me that such misunderstandings come from such a religion as Catholicism but what ever we both have our own veiws on the subject most times we try to avoid the subject all together

and Deoridhe parden my earlier words on Mars I had forgotten about the fertility aspect thank you for reminding me

and for future words i come from a Christian family so a lot of my words come out as that of a Christians even though I do not follow that path.  

[Yanueh]

Satan is not Lucifer, period: See: Lucifer is not Satan

See also: The Origins of Satan  

[Bastemhet]

Deoridhe

The casting of gods as "of something" is a post-Christian idea. It is not central to the pagan religions. Gods are more than a list of attributes.

Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more? A lot of the information we have about Kemetic deities is their many titles which are lists of their attributes and thus spheres of influence. Whatever myths we have of them now were not really told as a narrative (like Greek myths) as we have compiled them, but were referenced piecemeal in ritual as being understood as part of that theology. I of course agree that they are more than their attributes, but I don't think this precludes the listing of the attributes themselves as a large part of how one can understand the Kemetic deities and their titles and roles. In that sense I think it's entirely accurate to refer to a deity as "deity of ______," at least in the Kemetic theology, which does predate Christianity.

To the OP: I would really appreciate if you used some punctuation in your posts so it would help me to understand your writing better.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Bastemhet

Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more? A lot of the information we have about Kemetic deities is their many titles which are lists of their attributes and thus spheres of influence. Whatever myths we have of them now were not really told as a narrative (like Greek myths) as we have compiled them, but were referenced piecemeal in ritual as being understood as part of that theology.

While there may not have been a formal story in the same sense there was a formal recording of a narrative, is it possible that some of these accounts were so commonly understood that the reason they survived in the rituals was because there was a cultural awareness of these actions?

Bastemhet

I of course agree that they are more than their attributes, but I don't think this precludes the listing of the attributes themselves as a large part of how one can understand the Kemetic deities and their titles and roles. In that sense I think it's entirely accurate to refer to a deity as "deity of ______," at least in the Kemetic theology, which does predate Christianity.

I feel it is likely that there is a difference between relating to deities as divine persons who act on the world in certain ways, verses finding a list of names at the back of a book that groups them by a category.

An example I have seen elsewhere:
A person called the moon Diana, stating they worshiped Greek gods and that Diana was the Moon. In Greek myths, the Moon itself is called Selene- Diana is a Roman goddess. In Roman mythology sometimes the moon is associated with Diana- but the moon herself is Luna.

By understanding who Diana is, it makes a difference in the way she is approached. I think it is likely this is what other posters are talking about.  

[Bastemhet]

Brass Bell Doll

Bastemhet

Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more? A lot of the information we have about Kemetic deities is their many titles which are lists of their attributes and thus spheres of influence. Whatever myths we have of them now were not really told as a narrative (like Greek myths) as we have compiled them, but were referenced piecemeal in ritual as being understood as part of that theology.

While there may not have been a formal story in the same sense there was a formal recording of a narrative, is it possible that some of these accounts were so commonly understood that the reason they survived in the rituals was because there was a cultural awareness of these actions?

That is possible. I would not be surprised if there was a rich oral tradition alongside the written rituals. But I would be cautious about claiming cultural awareness when it comes to Kemet. Reason being that we do have some evidence of folk practices of those who were not priests (e.g. family deity statues and altars in the home), but we can't know to what extent as we don't have enough evidence to make any judgment in that respect. I think the only thing we can say is commonly understood is that which they've left to us in texts which was exclusively used by the priests that the vast majority of the peasants had no access to because, well, they couldn't read! I will say that has added an interesting dynamic to my own personal practice. smile

Bastemhet

I feel it is likely that there is a difference between relating to deities as divine persons who act on the world in certain ways, verses finding a list of names at the back of a book that groups them by a category.

True! I just don't see these two approaches as at odds to each other, provided that the extent of our knowledge of these deities is not limited to those attributes. That's something that I can't tell about the OP from the few posts he's made here.

Quote:

An example I have seen elsewhere:
A person called the moon Diana, stating they worshiped Greek gods and that Diana was the Moon. In Greek myths, the Moon itself is called Selene- Diana is a Roman goddess. In Roman mythology sometimes the moon is associated with Diana- but the moon herself is Luna.

By understanding who Diana is, it makes a difference in the way she is approached. I think it is likely this is what other posters are talking about.

Agreed. I should hope that that's not what's taking place here, but again, I can't tell from what's been posted. However I do admit to speed reading so maybe I didn't catch that on first perusal. I just wanted to impress upon those who may not be aware of Kemetic theology that part of worship is itself being aware of and I think even reciting the many titles of gods.