On the Quality and Intention of Words

[Kuroiban]

I was having an intellectual discussion with Nuri the other night, and she gave me a lot of perspective to something. I'm passing this on to the public at large to see what others think in turn.

So I put the word "Nuts" in a topic recently, and Nuri asked me to change it, to which I consented quickly and without complaint. It did spark up a conversation on the nature of why it got changed however.

Before I go on, let me make something clear; I find racist terminology abhorrent. However, not the terminology itself is what offends me, but the meaning behind it. Which is where I get stuck.

See, I'm of the opinion that if you make a word "banned" (for lack of a better term), you're not fixing the problem. To the previous example, if I say "Nuts" and someone is offended by the underlying malice that such a term could be used with, I understand the desire to remove that from view. However, I never intended that meaning; being possessed with some mental illness myself I would never make the connection purposefully that someone's borderline psychopathic actions would be equivalent with serious medical conditions. I have to much respect for those issues to mean something in that manner.

However, I realize that my meaning isn't the only yard stick. Hence why the topic was changed from "nuts" to "out of their mind" without complaint. I realized what was being requested and I had no problem with that.

However, let's say I DID mean it that way. If I change it, am I changing the meaning? Probably not. I might say something in nice, non-offensive words...but my thoughts are still offensive.

Another parallel if I may.

A friend of mine recently received a text picture from a very politically incorrect mutual acquaintance. I'm not going to describe the picture due to it's content. Let us just say that it made light of lynchings and just leave it at that.

My friend laughed. Now I don't hold this against the friend who received it; he's not racist. He believes in equality. What he has is a rather perverse sense of humor, and while I didn't share the sentiment he held, I know the meaning; he found the joke funny and that was it. There was no extra meaning to him.

Now the friend who sent it is Jewish, which wouldn't in itself be remarkable. Or at least it WOULDN'T have been had he not sent me, a week later, an E-mail about remembering those who died in the holocaust.

In one hand, he's making a joke about one race being publicly killed without repercussion for fighting for free speech...while on the other he's asking for sympathy and remembrance for his own people who died in genocidal tragedy.

My friend didn't piss me off. I wish he was higher minded, and realized what the implications of some of those jokes truly was, but he doesn't. His actions would be seen as racist and bigoted by standard PC views, but the intent of racist person wasn't there. He would have laughed at any racial joke of any race...even his own. While it may disgust some, he is unbiased in his humor.

The other person, with whom I'm heavily debating braking all ties with because, simply put, the man is a giant douche, was racist and hypocritical. You'd have to be, simply put, have severe mental challanges into order to not see the hypocrisy at play.

In short, I feel it's the intent of the words, not the words that are the true problem.  

[maenad nuri]

For an alternative viewpoint: From our very own Recursive Paradox: Intent! It's ******** Magic!

Seriously folks, it has charts and snark. You want to read it.  

[Bastemhet]

This is a good question. You can very well be racist on accident. I don't blame people for being ignorant. But I do blame people for being stupid. If you ask that person to really think about what he said and why he thought it was funny, which should lead to a conversation about underlying racist assumptions, and get a response like "stop being so PC," I have no respect for that.  

[Deoridhe]

I am a big fan of reclaiming words, and have been part of reclaiming "b***h" as a compliment for the last five years or so. There are other words which could, and are, being reclaimed - but here's the twist - only people to whom the word would be used as an invective are in such a role as to reclaim it.

So I can reclaim b***h. A guy? Not so much. Some strange guy hearing me using the word b***h then saying, "Yeah, you're such a b***h!" will get a glare from me at the least and a lecture at the worst.

A lot of people consider this a form of unjust discrimination because it's saying only some people can reclaim a word - but here's the thing - the injustice exists already. b***h is overwhelmingly applied to women, and if applied to men it's a double insult because not only is he MEAN and IRRATIONAL but he's also LIKE A WOMAN and OMG that's the worst evah!!!!!!!!!! (See - sports coaches using "ladies" and "girls" as insults. D8 Plz 2 b dying in fyre nao).

And even women use b***h as an invective. Even I do, despite my efforts to view it as something positive. Reclaiming is difficult. It takes attention and care and humor all at once, and man - that s**t is hard.

It's easy to claim intent is positive. It's easy to think your motives are pure. It's hard to be aware of 100% of your intent. But I think being open to talk about stuff and joke about it, and take your lumps when you offend someone (which will happen) and keep the dialogue moving is important.  

[Bastemhet]

Deoridhe

A lot of people consider this a form of unjust discrimination because it's saying only some people can reclaim a word - but here's the thing - the injustice exists already.

This reminds me of an article on reverse racism and use of the word "honky" as invective here, and how POC using this word can never be the same as white people using typical slurs like n~ and etc. I think it's worth mentioning.  

[kage no neko]

The only time I can recall using a word that I'd think could be insulting to a white person would be cracker.. and that's because I'm friends with too many computer geeks.
I've never personally heard the word "honky" used. Though the term I think is most insulting would be "----- trash". Calling someone trash is so demeaning to me.. Even the thought of "well someone's trash is another's treasure" doesn't clear that at all.

There are many words I've never seen as insulting at all. Like the r-word. Probably because it's got a meaning outside of the insulting one, like cracker does. It means to be slower. Which while some people are, it's a scientific word.

I'm aware I use words that can be considered insulting, but I never do it in public, and I certainly never say it to someone's face (or usually even around people at all). Even if I think poorly of someone for whatever reason, I still treat them as equally as I would someone else. It'd be just rude to do differently.
I've also learned that my judgments can change. People I'd thought highly of can be some of the crappiest people I've met, while others I'd thought less of I would've regretted treating wrongly. So I make sure that while I do judge people, I don't let it affect me and how I treat others.  

[Collowrath]

kage no neko

The only time I can recall using a word that I'd think could be insulting to a white person would be cracker.. and that's because I'm friends with too many computer geeks.
I've never personally heard the word "honky" used. Though the term I think is most insulting would be "----- trash". Calling someone trash is so demeaning to me.. Even the thought of "well someone's trash is another's treasure" doesn't clear that at all.

Honky is a term originating from Black meatpackers in the Midwest. It's aimed at Slavic immigrants from the Hungarian Empire (Hungarian - hunky - honky) who were forced out to escape the massive genocide being perpetrated against us. The meat packers were being replaced by Slavs who could be hired at lesser wages and were understandably upset at losing what was essentially the only job available to them.

At the time though, Slovaks and Poles weren't considered White. The slur has been pretty disarmed in the past half century or so when Anglos decided we were enough like them. It's still pretty regional though, it wouldn't really mean anything to someone outside certain areas.  

[maenad nuri]

Collowrath

At the time though, Slovaks and Poles weren't considered White. The slur has been pretty disarmed in the past half century or so when Anglos decided we were enough like them. It's still pretty regional though, it wouldn't really mean anything to someone outside certain areas.

It amazes me just how much whiteness has expanded, and how much it used to exclude. And to a certain extent, how becoming "white" can homogenize distinct culture.

Beorc: there's long been a difference between getting a "ghetto pass" from close friends who are in the minority. What I see going on in your other examples about "honky" and so on is a clear example of how privilege intersects within the kyriarchy. Poor whites have a different experience from poor blacks/other minorities. Poor Whites still have the privilege of being white.

I mean, look at the phrase white trash itself -- it has to specify that the trash is white, because the default is "other". Being white isn't the problem, being white and acting like "those people" is.

I'm really not seeing how the article would make you feel guilty to be white, though. It makes me uncomfortable, because even though I know I am privileged in that I am white, it sucks to be reminded of it.  

[kage no neko]

I've never felt any guilt toward being white. I don't see how it's my fault for my race, or for theirs. All that stuff that happened is a good bit in the past. Just because my skin is lighter than theirs, why should I inherently owe anyone anything? To me, that makes as much sense as being born with a sin I never did.  

[Bastemhet]

Beorc, you may want to read this article on privilege. The reason why you don't think you have it is because you actually benefit from it- you've probably never been discriminated against because of how you look, because you look white. This is an opportunity for you to understand where your limited experience ends and where the differing experience of people of color begins. You might also benefit from further understanding by looking at these other privilege lists.  

[Bastemhet]

kage no neko

I've never felt any guilt toward being white. I don't see how it's my fault for my race, or for theirs. All that stuff that happened is a good bit in the past. Just because my skin is lighter than theirs, why should I inherently owe anyone anything? To me, that makes as much sense as being born with a sin I never did.

No one is trying to make anyone feel guilty for being white, or for being any race. If by "that stuff" you mean oppression of people of color by the dominant group of whites, then it is still alive and well. The concept of owning your privilege is not that you personally owe someone else something, but that you are benefiting from the oppression of other people. The first article I cited above to Beorc is a really good detailed illustration of many things that white people take for granted that are privileges that people of color cannot always expect. The second link is a list of other "privilege lists," because being white in this society is not the only highly valued trait. Being a man, being straight, being cis, being able bodied, among other things, are all things that if people deviate from can be an entirely different experience, often oppressed, in danger, silenced, robbed of autonomy, of basic human rights, etc.  

[Kuroiban]

WARNING: This post contains a single, racial slur. This is not for the purpose of being hateful, but for the purpose of making an example and having the example hit home. Reader discretion is advised.

I have been trying to make a larger point, but haven't until now found the words for it.

I worry and am deeply concerned about what kind of damage political correctness can do. I feel it's like duck and cover from the 50s; a gesture that makes people feel better, when it in reality doesn't do anything.

Paradox put forth a very good point; intent is meaningless. Intent does nothing to the ripple effect that words may cause. It does nothing to erase or prevent damage.

I'm just saying that politically correct language is the exact same in that it is a useless gesture overall.

Additional Warning: The slur is below. Again, it is for the point of example, not to be a bigoted douche-nozzle

Imagine someone says the following to you, after having an arguement with a mutual acquaintance who happens to be a POC.:

"What is that ******'s problem?"

His intent is absolutely meaningless, though it would be hard to imagine a proper way to intend such a statement. Anyone who hears it will have immediate connections due to the meaning of that word, and it shows a clear lack of understanding on the speaker's part.

Let's say you tell the person in question you don't appreciate the word he used. He apologizes. He says he won't say the word anymore. Great.

Next week, same situation happens. Argument with a POC.

"What is that guy's problem?"

Some would say, mission accomplished. I say nothing changed at all.

That person in the example may not be saying that N word. However, if that was how he FEELS, chances are that it is still what he MEANS. So we got rid of the word that makes us upset, hurt, angry, uncomfortable, discriminated against...what have you. That MEANING is still there. That intent is still there. The feeling of superiority on behalf of the speaker didn't change.

The only difference is he used a socially acceptable form of expression. To which I say, big deal.

Actually I think that's WORSE in some ways. Politically Correct language makes it easier for bigots and the like to hide their hatred behind a facade of politeness and etiquette. Which would you rather, to be hated honestly or liked dishonestly?

The obvious answer is neither. But you don't get that result from just making people change their words. Words are as pointless as intent.

I'm all for creating racial, gender, and theological balances. I'm for equality. I looked through the list of white privileges, and while I I quirked eyebrows at quite a few of them, I was surprised at how many I had recognized for years. I'm not saying this to tell you how great I am; merely that I'm not coming from this from an angle that says "I want to say what I want to say, and I'll rationalize it any damn way I want."

What I'm saying is that PC speech is no more effective then intent. The only thing it does differently is makes us feel better about bigotry, and I'm not sure that such a thing is where we want to hang our collective hats on.