Welcome to Gaia! ::

So, I'm a bit excited. Nearly a year ago, I was planning on attending meetings at Keeper of Seasons' Hall. It was during this time when Tea and I had a debate that left me uncertain. Not uncertain in my beliefs, but uncertain in what I was doing. Uncertain in how I was living this religion and if I was being dishonest and dishonorable to myself and to the Gods.

Since then, while I am no expert, I felt I have grown and that I am mature enough to join KOSH. I feel like I have enough basic information on what Asatru is that I can join and learn more from others. I read their website and while I am still on the fence about a few things, I think it will be a great experience.

But, my main point for starting this thread was 1) to thank Tea and:

Have you ever joined a group for the purposes of your religion?
What was your first group/time like?
Have you changed groups?
What important qualities do you look for in a group?

No, I don't technically have a religion. I have joined groups based on my interests etc.
Groups I have been a part of ... it took a bit of adjusting. I was lucky that the first group of people I ever joined were just starting themselves so the group wasn't to enmeshed in procedure etc.
I have changed groups, but more because the group lost interest what the group was trying to accomplish

What important qualities do you look for in a group?
I look for groups which aren't pretentious. I enjoy people who are very inquisitive. Who aren't afraid to go out and actually test the things they are talking about. Who don't just sit around talking about things and go out and do them! I feel very frustrated otherwise. I want to Do things, I want to see what will work.
I don't like very negative people. I don't react well to negativity.

I don't deal well with overly furmulaic groups. I want to know the reasons for peoples actions and being chastised for asking questions, even indirectly, doesn't work well for me. I don't do well with groups where the leader of the group has all the power. I like groups which every ones idea's and beliefs have equal standing. I don't like groups which try to make me lead them. I like to have an equal give and take and an open forum for communication where people are excited and involved in what they are doing. I like smaller groups vs. larger. At most 7 people as thats a good group size number (communication classes 7 people can interact effectively) I don't like group think. I don't like it when everyone in the groups agree's with everyone else. I feel uneasy whenever that starts happening, but I also don't like it when people are shot down.

Pretty much... I have an ideal which is very hard to meet >_<

Most people I have met who have started groups have started them to spread their own dogma or views... not very many people I have met have searched for positions of power without enjoying said power.

Since your posts indicate that you're inclined to decry individuals who disagree with you as pretentious, closed minded, or negative, do you ever find yourself conflicted when people are honestly inquisitive about the contradictions in your positions?

This is not a function of being formulaic. At times it is a function of questions being asked in inappropriate ways or at inappropriate times. At other times it is a function of the individual not wishing to meet your needs. But it is not a function of a group being formulaic.


But why would individuals whose positions can be demonstrated to be flawed be granted equal validity?

More can interact effectively if effort is put forward.




This doesn't make sense. If you believe that something is another way, and it can be demonstrated as such, and someone agrees simply to be the individual who doesn't, why is that beneficial?

It would appear this is a byproduct of your personality, rather than any intrinsic nature.

Very cool.

Also, it might be worth noting that I can't say I know of any group that expects everyone to mindlessly agree with them.
redface
Welcome.

Have you ever joined a group for the purposes of your religion?
Nope. Was born into one though.
I also joined groups for social reasons- religious groups that were interesting, but different from my tradition.

What was your first group/time like?
Uh.... my earliest memories were of singing on the beach around a campfire.

After a big meal, we walked down onto the beach. I pulled a little wagon behind me. It had wood, paper and I think it had a doll I had been given, but I can't say for sure.

My uncle had spent some time teaching me how to blow across the mouth of a jug to make that deep beautiful noise. The wind always seemed to carry it- making it swirl around us as other family members played instruments and sang songs in a language I didn't understand.

The wood was collected from the beach itself, and it held this very sweet scent- unlike any firewood I have ever smelled since. I have a touch of what some might call synesthesia- though I would debate any diagnosis for personal reasons, and that smoke smelled blue and emerald green...

My dad was laughing- I kept running around climbing over my aunts and uncles. It was dark out, but I wanted to fly the kite I was given for my birthday.

One of my aunts had brought a bottle of something onto the beach. I got splashed a very specific way. I remember my dad kneeling down and telling me it was very important that I stay very still- otherwise I wouldn't get my wish.

I can almost feel his hand ruffling my hair as I recall it.

More songs, a bit of drinking on their part, some laughter, prayers said that I couldn't understand.

The sand was soft, and my uncle who had just a little too much to drink, couldn't dance in it- he fell on his butt and laughed and laughed!

I don't know... does that count?


Social groups... it was with some Asatru. It wasn't too memorable. They hollowed the space with a Hammer. They poured out to gods, ancestors and bragged.

I can picture who was there, and I think it was in the autumn and later in the evening.

I found myself interested less because of the theology, and more because it was something to do on a Friday night.

Have you changed groups?
Social groups yes. I don't take kindly to being treated like a doormat or an object to be groped.

What important qualities do you look for in a group?
Low Bullshit Tolerance.
Fun to hang out with.
Firm convictions.
High interest in scholarship, but flexible enough to work in a modern setting.

I'm really ******** picky. I have to feel safe. For example, when I go to something like Summerstar, I pretty much hang out with a handful of people I know really well. Really just the staff, and even some of them I avoid.

I'm sure there are lots of awesome people at Summerstar that I just don't bother to get to know, and I'm okay with that.

This is the first time I have ever blocked anyone for any reason ever

I'm quite surprised I went through with it... though really... I feel a bit empowered by sticking to my guns on the matter.

I don't think that "honest inquiry" would include jokes about raping babies. I ignored every person who commented on the subject. I don't feel like being mocked. I also didn't find it amusing.

Every single period was a different set of desires. Such as I don't deal well with overly formulaic groups is separate from being chastised for asking questions.

I don't interact well with things which are overly formulaic. I don't usually follow rituals.

I do want to know the reason for peoples actions, thus not being allowed to ask questions "ever" about certain things, even indirectly, is difficult for me and I don't like making assumptions. I don't like guessing as I am most likely wrong when I guess. I may say things which are completely different then what the person is thinking, thus it may be worse for me to guess and since it is hard for me to Not think to not try to piece information together answering a single question can avoid more complications.

Also how is their position demonstrated to be flawed? What gives the person "with power" power accept the followers who chose to follow him. In groups where the leader is... well sub par, this may be more telling of the flaws of the group than the leader as they are following them, I do not follow easily. Individuals make the choice to follow for many reasons. The followers and leaders are inextricably linked, if one fails to see this and recognize it well... I don't really have very much respect for them. I would not follow such a person.
I am of course speaking from Experience. Of people I have met. Groups I have seen experiences I have had.
I don't like "followers" and I don't like "leaders"
I believe that people tend to be rational and that talking to them on a level of equality and acceptance tends to bring this about.

In some cases a leader has legitimate power, but even with legitimate power, that the leader would disrespect another person... upsets me. To invalidate another person is a horrible thing to do. They have reasons within their internal context, even if this does not hold true from an external context, invalidating their beliefs idea's etc. robs the person of this. Just because a person may not understand an aspect does not mean that they are Incapable of understanding.

Their capacity to understand, to use logic, to come up with idea's if given proper training etc. should be recognized

7 is congruent with most of the theories I've read. I actually prefer to interact with 2-3 people at a time. Its hard for everyone to be heard in numbers greater then that. It is also more difficult to give everyone equal standing and to make sure that everyone is taken into account. Not saying its impossible its just Easier with smaller numbers. Larger numbers allow for more to be done, and larger groups can split off into smaller teams in order to devid the work. Its just a preferential number

Group Think: would be even if a person does have an opinion, or even a variation of the agreed upon definition, due to peer pressure etc. they do not feel as if they can speak.

I feel Uneasy when everyone agree's because there is no variation. With so many different perspectives that can exist for everyone to share the same I wonder if group think is occuring.
Of course it depends on how many different variations that I can imagine to exist. If I can't imagine any other opinions then I forget that other opinions may exist.
I also think that your sentence structure may be a bit off.

I think what you Mean to say is that, if something can be demonstrated to be a certain way and someone disagree's just to be the individual who doesn't agree, how is this beneficial.

If everyone agree's I wonder if everyone Actually agree's or if they are just Saying they may. Also if people are thinking of every alternative that may exist.

Thus I feel Uneasy when Group think occurs (people can't speak their mind or don't consider all possibilities) and I also don't like it when people are shot down.
I don't like it when people are shot down as they may have something valuable to say.

I mean... look up group think and Consequences

Well Ideals are by products of my personality.

I don't believe other peoples desires Could be a biproduct of my personality

That seems to give my personality a bit more power then I would like it to have.

This is of course not to say that I haven't met people who have had positions of power without wanting to spread a dogma or view... most of them didn't search for that position but were given it.

Trust me -- they aren't joking. They aren't jokes -- there are pagans whose writings and teachings have resulted in children being raped, who are still treated with respect within the larger pagan community for some reason. Go read up on the Frosts.

Well, don't you know that religious ***** is justified in witchcraft because they feel that social pressures to protect children from a "positive understanding of sexuality" are what force us to say it isn't okay to commit incest and rape drunk little kids.

GROUP THINK! GROUP THINK!

Also, why look it up when you can see it right here? Trigger warning::
I'll post the table in a sec, but understand this: They instruct a preteen on how to use a d***o after surgically removing her hymen and instruct a mother to mutilate her son's p***s without any medical training. Do you have any idea how many things could go wrong with what they're asking her to do? You don't go around ******** slicing frenulums when you don't know what you're doing.


This is so ******** stupid. You don't give IUDs to 13 year old girls.



Here's the table. Again, this is done to 13 year old girls.

Source: http://www.freewebs.com/controversialstudy/WB/ChapterIV.htm

Other joy's you'll find in there: Getting children drunk and having them dance naked.