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Molly Mollusca

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:04 am


	I know. This is a subject that might upset people, probably including me. But still I feel I have to ask this question to people who know more about mythology then me. As someone who was raped in her childhood I really don't want to give honor, or sacrifice anything to Gods that are rapist or approve of rape. Therefore I always thought the Greek pantheon was out of the question for me, since Zeus liked to rape woman and Hera punished not her husband, but the woman in question. (So the woman was twice ********.) As far as I know the Greeks had many Gods who tried to rape or succeeded in the rape. But lately I've been thinking. I know very little about the Greeks. I only know second hand sources. So I tried Theoi.com. There it says that Zeus seduced the women, not raped. Which in my mind makes a lot of difference. So, my questions are: Did the Greeks have a concept of rape? If so, did how they viewed it differ then ours? If certain Greek Gods did rape women, did these stories transfer to their Roman counterparts? Does seducing women = raping women in the olden days? Are there any good sources about this subject available?

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:16 am


	one of the more classical definitions of rape was more along the lines of abduction. As for consent, sometimes there was more implied than other times. Not to up on the specifics -- and it must always be kept in mind that the gods morals are not needfully our own. (hopefully more later, I'm at work, and I'm sure Celeblin has more information and may well school me.)

maenad nuri
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TeaDidikai

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:20 am


	Molly Mollusca Did the Greeks have a concept of rape? Yep. Quote: If so, did how they viewed it differ then ours? Well, for a start, Modern Western understanding of rape wasn't nearly as understanding towards the victim. In this day and age, we understand that a person dressing as they want, or working in a position they want etc are not invitations for others to force themselves on that person. Quote: If certain Greek Gods did rape women, did these stories transfer to their Roman counterparts? I'm aware of some that did. I'm not familiar with any that did not- but that lack of familiarity doesn't mean it isn't there. Quote: Does seducing women = raping women in the olden days? It would depend on the situation. Some understandings of marriage and seduction would translate as rape in our culture. Quote: Are there any good sources about this subject available? With luck, Celeblin or Nuri will give you a hand with this.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:21 am


	In the story of Daphne and Apollo, which, according to wiki, did transfer to Roman mythology from Greek, it shows that the Gods are willing to rape. Or at least, Apollo is when 'in love,' and Cupid is willing to incite another to it.

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Celeblin Galadeneryn

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:35 pm


	maenad nuri one of the more classical definitions of rape was more along the lines of abduction. As for consent, sometimes there was more implied than other times. Not to up on the specifics -- and it must always be kept in mind that the gods morals are not needfully our own. (hopefully more later, I'm at work, and I'm sure Celeblin has more information and may well school me.) A lot has to do with the position of blame and Hera's motives. Reading the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite, we find that a lot of the blame is placed on her shoulders - she makes the Gods fall in love with mortals for her own amusement. Eros is one of Hesiod's four beginning presences, as you probably know, and as such is amazingly powerful, as seen in myths such as these. As for Hera, you have to look at what her function was, what marriage was like in ancient Greece, and which caused her more harm. She takes on being a protector of marriage a fair bit of the time, so the question becomes what is more damaging to her and her household - Zeus' infidelity itself or the children which are the product thereof. The answer is the children, since they present a danger to her household and her position of Queen of Heaven as possible usurpers. When we come to it from the otherside, the general excuse of Zeus' behaviour is that since his genepool is the most superior one in existence, he has an obligation for the good of the world to be prolific. As for the abduction part, he seems to abduct less and simply.... awe more. An example of abduction would be Hades and Persephone. As for what Zeus deals in... well, I'll use Catullus as an example. I can't think of a literary example of Zeus that goes in depth outside of Nonnus' Dionysiaca, which contains rather consensual sex with Semele, so we're gonna go with Dionysos and Ariadne. Catullus gives us an absolutely stunning account of Ariadne abandoned on the beach in a moment of absolute desperation just screaming at Theseus' retreating ships until finally she sleeps. That's right about the point where the procession of Dionysos shows up. We're talking full procession, satyrs, maenads. Eventually they come to where Ariadne's sleeping and he beholds her. There's a little foreshadowing as to his knowing she's going to be there, but to say he's stricken by the sight is an understatement. I believe the line is something like "He, quaking with loves for you, Ariadne." The God basically overwhelms her in every possible way upon her waking to the sound of the procession. I would question as to how aware she was of what was going on.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:11 pm


	Hmm. Having my mind flipped by some serious power for sex by that being strikes me as pretty awful. Like a sort of metaphysical "get the girl drunk and take her" sort of situation. Mayhaps I don't fully understand the writings or the attitude of the woman in question but to me, the use of power, divinity, whatever, that denies someone their ability to consent makes a recipe for violation if one takes advantage of the person in that state.

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:33 pm


	Recursive Paradox Hmm. Having my mind flipped by some serious power for sex by that being strikes me as pretty awful. Like a sort of metaphysical "get the girl drunk and take her" sort of situation. Mayhaps I don't fully understand the writings or the attitude of the woman in question but to me, the use of power, divinity, whatever, that denies someone their ability to consent makes a recipe for violation if one takes advantage of the person in that state. Ariadne's a bit of a special case. She herself is of divine parentage (Zeus is her grandfather) and becomes divine. One could call the procession of the God her apotheosis with the right argument. Nevermind that we're dealing with a God who works through such altered states to begin with. But back with the special case, you don't go seeing Zeus showing his pure awe to that many people, lest they burn crispy. Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:36 pm


	Celeblin Galadeneryn Ariadne's a bit of a special case. She herself is of divine parentage and becomes divine. One could call the procession of the God her apotheosis with the right argument. Nevermind that we're dealing with a God who works through such altered states to begin with. But back with the special case, you don't go seeing Zeus showing his pure awe to that many people, lest they burn crispy. There's a reason I do so love Dionysos. He has this thing about lifting up the women that he loves. And I don't really think that Dionysos went to Ariadne for the sexors, there some serious connection there. I was also about to argue this exact same thing, except less well put. Quote: Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much. Yeah, seriously.

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:39 pm


	Celeblin Galadeneryn Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much. That doesn't mean I have to like, accept or respond well to their separate morality. XD But yes, it certainly may not be rape to them.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:40 pm


	maenad nuri And I don't really think that Dionysos went to Ariadne for the sexors, there some serious connection there. It's probable. I'm getting the information secondhand so I know I really don't know what happened there. It's mostly speculation on my part.

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:42 pm


	maenad nuri Celeblin Galadeneryn Ariadne's a bit of a special case. She herself is of divine parentage and becomes divine. One could call the procession of the God her apotheosis with the right argument. Nevermind that we're dealing with a God who works through such altered states to begin with. But back with the special case, you don't go seeing Zeus showing his pure awe to that many people, lest they burn crispy. There's a reason I do so love Dionysos. He has this thing about lifting up the women that he loves. And I don't really think that Dionysos went to Ariadne for the sexors, there some serious connection there. I was also about to argue this exact same thing, except less well put. This is inherent in the Catullus. He literal shakes upon seeing her he's so overcome. He's possessed by it. And let's not forget, the boy had his mother installed in Olympus. Mad props there. Quote: Quote: Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much. Yeah, seriously. What it kind of comes down to is that the immediate recompence he Zeus offers (The privelidges of being known throughout history as one of his loves and bearing a child far greater than any normal person, perhaps even a God) is more than enough payment for any crime you want to say he's commited. Or at least, that's how the Greeks saw it.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:44 pm


	Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Also, to get into Gods taking advantage of 'drunk' girls, we kind of have to posit that Gods operate on the same morality we do. They don't so much. That doesn't mean I have to like, accept or respond well to their separate morality. XD But yes, it certainly may not be rape to them. Not like or not respond well, sure, but what depending on what you mean by accept, maybe not so much. Denying their seperate morality doesn't make it go away, but I could be misunderstanding what you mean.

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:45 pm


	Celeblin Galadeneryn Or at least, that's how the Greeks saw it. Pesky cultural differences, making it hard to draw parallels and see things eye to eye. XD

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:48 pm


	Recursive Paradox Celeblin Galadeneryn Or at least, that's how the Greeks saw it. Pesky cultural differences, making it hard to draw parallels and see things eye to eye. XD It's a little more than that. I mean, it still wasn't cool for your average Greek to rape the neighbour's daughter and claim it was all good because he provided her with a healthy child. There are things the Gods can do that we just plain can't get away with.

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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:50 pm


	Recursive Paradox That doesn't mean I have to like, accept or respond well to their separate morality. XD But yes, it certainly may not be rape to them. This is why I would make a piss poor Hellenic. On my path, you can piss off gods, but it isn't a crime unto itself to do so.

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