Christo-Paganism, Syncretic Faiths, Mysticism and You

[TeaDidikai]

Yes, this is the Pagan rehab guild.

But let's face it, syncretic faiths are usually denounced by Christendom, and many people with more eclectic paths find comfort in Abrahamic traditions that surround them.

Hell, even Gardner wrote about these people in his books- to say nothing of things like Vodou and similar traditions.

So, I figured we might as well chat about it. Maybe even address some of the curious expressions and source texts for such traditions.

There was a book on Jewish Witchcraft I browsed once that seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Other than that, there's a new text out called Christo-Paganism and the classic Gnosis of the Cosmic Christ.  

[aoijea23487]

so, I lurk YouTube. there's this raging debate about Christian Wicca [that people at this point are agreeing to disagree and stop talking about it].

downside is that people practicing "Christian Wicca" aren't legitimately Wiccan, and even though i have pointed this out to them, one of them has claimed that "lineage doesn't mean knowledge." denotation-wise? sure. but within Wicca, isn't the knowledge of correct practice come through...oh, lineage? argh. there's also this "i am college-educated and therefore must know more than any of you other people" mentality going around. ick.

what's interesting is that the heat is not coming from the Christian community as much as it is from the pagan community. because to some pagan YouTubers, Christians and YHVH are evil, and syncretism doesn't exist.

in response a lot of people have been uploading informational videos on Gnositicism and mysticism within Christianity, which has been refreshing. also floating around are theories that the different names for God in the Old Testament originally refer to different deities, and the theology was butchered in translation.

my own understanding of deity and cosmology comes from Hegel, a Christian pantheist. while i do agree that a deity named YHVH exists, it's not the same as Hegel understands it.

to be honest, i don't know a whole lot about Christo-paganism. Are there many variations of it?  

[Ashley the Bee]

I'm not sure this is the best place to ask it, so let me know if I should move it to a new topic or whatever...

But I'm confused about YHWH's coexistence with other deities? I mean, it seems as though he claims to have created the universe, earth, all the plants, animals and other creatures, and humanity.

But... it would seem as though there would be other creation myths out there that tell different stories.

Is YHWH just exaggerating? How do these idea fit in with other deities?  

[Collowrath]

Ashley the Bee

Is YHWH just exaggerating? How do these idea fit in with other deities?

My personal inclination is that this is one of the flaws in the Judeo-Christian world view.

However, I'm not above equivocating YHVH with Bieloboh - he is the Creator, but not the end-all-be-all of deityhood. I see deities as a species or race of beings.

I really need to think about where I sit as far as Double Faith is concerned. I have irreconcilable disagreements with Christian orthodoxy - but it's very difficult for me to separate my ethnic traditions from Christianity.  

[Ashley the Bee]

Collowrath

Ashley the Bee

Is YHWH just exaggerating? How do these idea fit in with other deities?

My personal inclination is that this is one of the flaws in the Judeo-Christian world view.

Mind if I ask if you could be more specific? I don't understand what the flaw is, I don't think.  

[Collowrath]

Ashley the Bee

Collowrath

Ashley the Bee

Is YHWH just exaggerating? How do these idea fit in with other deities?

My personal inclination is that this is one of the flaws in the Judeo-Christian world view.

Mind if I ask if you could be more specific? I don't understand what the flaw is, I don't think.

Hard monotheism is the flaw in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Although, I've heard ancient Judaism wasn't exactly monotheist.  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

one of them has claimed that "lineage doesn't mean knowledge." In the c denotation-wise? sure. but within Wicca, isn't the knowledge of correct practice come through...oh, lineage?

Yep.

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argh. there's also this "i am college-educated and therefore must know more than any of you other people" mentality going around. ick.

Good example of an appeal to authority. I'm college educated. That doesn't mean I can preform brain surgery.

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what's interesting is that the heat is not coming from the Christian community as much as it is from the pagan community. because to some pagan YouTubers, Christians and YHVH are evil, and syncretism doesn't exist.

Logically this would be a form of Guilt by Association.

If they want to theistically debate that YHVH is an evil deity, they're welcome to. Chapter and verse, and all that. Then they would have to address any qualms with the notion that YHVH is the Christian god.

That said, the notion that syncretism doesn't exist is proof by assertion on their part, another logical fallacy.

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in response a lot of people have been uploading informational videos on Gnositicism and mysticism within Christianity, which has been refreshing. also floating around are theories that the different names for God in the Old Testament originally refer to different deities, and the theology was butchered in translation.

Depends on the part of the OT in question, and which names we're talking about.

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Are there many variations of it?

More than I can count really.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ashley the Bee

But I'm confused about YHWH's coexistence with other deities? I mean, it seems as though he claims to have created the universe, earth, all the plants, animals and other creatures, and humanity.

When reading through Genesis in the original Hebrew, what you note is that in the two creation myths, there is one wherein the god(s) aren't named and in the second one, you have YHVH.

The Pre-Jewish people were polytheistic- heck, even into Isaiah's time, they were at least ditheistic, more likely monolateralistic, acknowledging the existence of other gods while stating that worship was only due to YHVH in accordance with their covenant as his chosen people.

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But... it would seem as though there would be other creation myths out there that tell different stories.

Is YHWH just exaggerating? How do these idea fit in with other deities?

I think I mentioned this somewhere else before- but think on what "Creation of the World" would imply to the individuals being granted this knowledge. How big is the world of a man who can't fly from London to New York in eight hours?  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

I have irreconcilable disagreements with Christian orthodoxy

Such as?  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Hard monotheism is the flaw in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Although, I've heard ancient Judaism wasn't exactly monotheist.

We're learning more and more about the influences Canaanite religion had on early Judaism. It's really interesting stuff in my opinion.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

I have irreconcilable disagreements with Christian orthodoxy

Such as?

Well, foremost, I don't believe in the need for salvation of the soul, nor salvation through Christ. I disagree with Christian conceptions of deity.

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

Hard monotheism is the flaw in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Although, I've heard ancient Judaism wasn't exactly monotheist.

We're learning more and more about the influences Canaanite religion had on early Judaism. It's really interesting stuff in my opinion.

I haven't really looked much into it. I did some very basic searches on it a few weeks ago, but I couldn't really wrap my head around some of it through sheer unfamiliarity.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Well, foremost, I don't believe in the need for salvation of the soul,

What is your understanding of salvation?

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I disagree with Christian conceptions of deity.

Which one(s)?

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I haven't really looked much into it. I did some very basic searches on it a few weeks ago, but I couldn't really wrap my head around some of it through sheer unfamiliarity.

Which did you have problems with?  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

Well, foremost, I don't believe in the need for salvation of the soul,

What is your understanding of salvation?

Deliverance from sin. Sin, as a transgression against God, doesn't really work the same way in my tradition. Sure, you build up ritual impurity that separates you from the Gods, but that's washed away through ritual process - and it's not really a transgression either, so much as it's a "byproduct" of being human.

Burkhert described it as similar to how the body builds up dirt, physically, as a byproduct of farming, working, cleaning, cooking, having sex, etc. Miasma offends the Gods in the same way dirt and sweat offend your boss when you don't shower before work - except that there's a spiritual component as well that must be washed away.

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I disagree with Christian conceptions of deity.

Which one(s)?

Monotheism mostly - it conflicts with what I know to be true. Thoroughly gnosis on my part though.

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I haven't really looked much into it. I did some very basic searches on it a few weeks ago, but I couldn't really wrap my head around some of it through sheer unfamiliarity.

Which did you have problems with?

I couldn't keep the Canaanite deities straight, for one. My pure unfamiliarity with them made it difficult to place personalities. I really just need to find motivation to delve back into it - Molech is very interesting.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Deliverance from sin. Sin, as a transgression against God, doesn't really work the same way in my tradition. Sure, you build up ritual impurity that separates you from the Gods, but that's washed away through ritual process - and it's not really a transgression either, so much as it's a "byproduct" of being human.

How very Jewish of you. wink

Really though, that was why Sin Offerings existed, and it's a perspective maintained in some sects of Christendom. Further, the Tanakh actually has guidelines for ritual prayer to remove sin when blood offerings aren't possible.

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Monotheism mostly - it conflicts with what I know to be true. Thoroughly gnosis on my part though.

Christendom isn't synonymous with monotheism though- it's extensively connected, but you also find Monolateralists and scriptural justification to those ends as well. Then you have other traditions which are nearly Deistic while others are polytheistic. Are they heretics? Hell yes! But to be a heretic you have to be part of that religion to begin with.

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I couldn't keep the Canaanite deities straight, for one. My pure unfamiliarity with them made it difficult to place personalities. I really just need to find motivation to delve back into it - Molech is very interesting.

Ah. That can be tricky, especially with there not being a whole lot of recorded folktales to bring familiarity in the same way other cultural Epics can for folks.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

Deliverance from sin. Sin, as a transgression against God, doesn't really work the same way in my tradition. Sure, you build up ritual impurity that separates you from the Gods, but that's washed away through ritual process - and it's not really a transgression either, so much as it's a "byproduct" of being human.

How very Jewish of you. wink

Really though, that was why Sin Offerings existed, and it's a perspective maintained in some sects of Christendom. Further, the Tanakh actually has guidelines for ritual prayer to remove sin when blood offerings aren't possible.

There is cross cultural exchange between the ancient Greeks and Semites in Anatolia, the Levant, and Mesopotamia - they exchanged gods, and ideas about how sacrifices and ritual purity are conducted and understood.

The missing component I think, in my case, is that I don't feel Christ is necessary.

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Monotheism mostly - it conflicts with what I know to be true. Thoroughly gnosis on my part though.

Christendom isn't synonymous with monotheism though- it's extensively connected, but you also find Monolateralists and scriptural justification to those ends as well. Then you have other traditions which are nearly Deistic while others are polytheistic. Are they heretics? Hell yes! But to be a heretic you have to be part of that religion to begin with.

That's true. It doesn't solve the issue with not accepting Christ as a necessary spiritual component, however.