Racism or Equality

[AmericanJetFighter]

Of course your genes make you act a certain way... that's why all black people act the same.

Your genes are what you are, like a lion or zebra.

[Eclecticist]

nooneatall16

Rossii

Racism, in my opinion, is looking at a group of people and deciding that they are not as worthy as a different group in social or legal terms. "Racism" is a loaded term in modern times because of its negative connotations. It would be unacceptable to call someone a racist for simply acknowledging differences between races. Racism implies the supremacy of one race over another.

It is accepted though. That is exactly how the term is used against modern psychologists and such by antiracist groups. And even Tom Metzger god father of the Nazi skinhead movement has said he doesn't consider Whites superior to all other races.

Racism in our society exists explicitly in the constext of white supremacy. Maybe when you seem someone and notice their skin color, you don't immediately assume anything about their value as people, but associating people by skin color (say, an "individual act of racism" wink is inextricably tied to racism on the whole, the larger institution of racism, which sits firmly (in our society) on the notion that "whites" (a term which itself is poorly defined) are better than others (which themselves are often distingused and ranked accordingly).

Agent Glitter

Oy, I don't stereotype the blacks who don't act like this. I'm just saying that, unfortunately, a large percentage of black people in America do act like this, and it contributes to the problem with racism.

That is, sadly, a stereotype. Quite explicitly.

Himura_Battousia

In todays society, things like affirmative action and ignoring racism from black people are no longer necessary. People are people, and if a white man can't pull the racist card, yet a black person can, does that not mean that society is then racist for allowing the one-sided racism?

One sided racism? You have no idea what you're talking about. Racism is a long-standing social institution that (in the US) favors whites. Just because somebody calls you a "honkey" doesn't mean racism instantaneously changed throughout society and became anti-white. Just because somebody sets up a fair-minded program like affirmative action doesn't mean somebody's stealing your spot in college (it does not, despite whatever misconstrued idea of it you might have, let anyone less qualified into any job or school).




I'll address this to anyone and everyone who is talking like they understand racism or know anything about social institutions of privilege: you probably don't, and if you're blabbering on about "reverse racism" and affirmative action and so on, you're definitely in the column marked "ignorant, uneducated, and wrong." You want to learn about racism? Read a book. Not just any book. A book describing the theoretical and social foundation for racism in the US. In fact, read a dozen. Then get back to us.

[Contagious Cure]

Using a dictionary to cover a philosophy? Brilliant stuff, all those books written about egalitarianism must have been a waste of paper. It is undeniable that genes play a role in who we are, who we can become and how we behave... but so does the environment. To believe in the racist ideology and use it in practice would however, require one to believe that the environmental influences can't override (although most just do it purely out of ignorance or simply because someone told them so their whole lives) the genetic. That, and the belief that the genetic ties between each races are significant enough for some form of segregation or actively different treatment.

However, here lies the drawback and the near-complete lack of scientific methodology within racism. You can't prove it legally through experimentation! To find out just how significant the genetic factor is, you have the grow up a valid sample of people belonging to various races and isolate the environmental variable. Now as it stands, it is illegal to raise humans for the sole purposes of experimentation. I.e. near all observations concluding to racism are more or less, scientifically invalid.

So unless you are saying that a black person raised in a conservative, christian, education orientated family without influence from the supposedly 'negative black street culture" will be inclined to act like Snoop Dog or whatever... I think you need to review your argument.

[Eclecticist]

nooneatall16

Quote:

e‧gal‧i‧tar‧i‧an  /ɪˌgælɪˈtɛəriən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-gal-i-tair-ee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, esp. in political, economic, or social life.
–noun
2. a person who adheres to egalitarian beliefs.

Perhaps environmentalist would have been a better choice. I've heard the terms used almost interchangeably before.

Environmentalist? Sorry, but that is also not what you are talking about. Environmentalists want to protect the environment from stuff like pollution, suburban sprawl, excessive fishing/foresting, etc.

In fact, I can think of no ideology, progressive or otherwise, that propones that any two people are entirely interchangeable, only that they are equal in stature as human beings, that they have equal human worth, that they are entitled to the same rights, dignity, and respect as each other, etc.

[nooneatall16]

Eclecticist

nooneatall16

Let us examine for a moment the corner stones of racist ideology and compare them to those of egalitarian ideology. Read the whole post, then tell us what you think sounds more reasonable and why.

At the core of egalitarian ideology is the belief that we are all equal. Many egalitarians believe that while we are individuals we all have the same basic potential, assuming an individual is not brain damaged or something. An egalitarian believes that people are more or less interchangeable. Anyone can do anything. They only have to have had a similar environment growing up, the same opportunities, etc. An egalitarian looks at the differences between pygmies from the Congo and White Icelandic men, and he thinks “Look at how the differences between these different types of men’s genes caused them to be so different in shape and size. But underneath it we are more or less the same. I’m sure none of these differences really matter. Two arms, two legs, we can interbreed, and we are all human.”

At the core of all racist ideology is the belief that people are different, that both individuals and races have different tendencies hard wired into them. It is a racial nationalist’s belief that these differences contribute to one’s understanding of a nation’s culture/society, and one’s ability to maintain it. A racist looks at the differences between pygmies from the Congo and White Icelandic men, and he thinks “Look at how the differences between these different types of men’s genes caused them to be so different in shape and size. They even have brains that are different in shape and size. These types of men tend behave quite differently as well; how could genes not be at work in this as well?”

Firstly, you don't really know what egalitarianism is. Secondly, you can't examine racism in a vacuum. It is an institutionalized cultural/societal belief that specifically propones the supremacy of certain groups over others. The theory of race, in the contexts of sociology, anthropology, political science, etc, these things extend far beyond whatever notion you cook up on a moment's thought.

Quote:

e‧gal‧i‧tar‧i‧an  /ɪˌgælɪˈtɛəriən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-gal-i-tair-ee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, esp. in political, economic, or social life.
–noun
2. a person who adheres to egalitarian beliefs.

Perhaps environmentalist would have been a better choice. I've heard the terms used almost interchangeably before.

[Eclecticist]

nooneatall16

Let us examine for a moment the corner stones of racist ideology and compare them to those of egalitarian ideology. Read the whole post, then tell us what you think sounds more reasonable and why.

At the core of egalitarian ideology is the belief that we are all equal. Many egalitarians believe that while we are individuals we all have the same basic potential, assuming an individual is not brain damaged or something. An egalitarian believes that people are more or less interchangeable. Anyone can do anything. They only have to have had a similar environment growing up, the same opportunities, etc. An egalitarian looks at the differences between pygmies from the Congo and White Icelandic men, and he thinks “Look at how the differences between these different types of men’s genes caused them to be so different in shape and size. But underneath it we are more or less the same. I’m sure none of these differences really matter. Two arms, two legs, we can interbreed, and we are all human.”

At the core of all racist ideology is the belief that people are different, that both individuals and races have different tendencies hard wired into them. It is a racial nationalist’s belief that these differences contribute to one’s understanding of a nation’s culture/society, and one’s ability to maintain it. A racist looks at the differences between pygmies from the Congo and White Icelandic men, and he thinks “Look at how the differences between these different types of men’s genes caused them to be so different in shape and size. They even have brains that are different in shape and size. These types of men tend behave quite differently as well; how could genes not be at work in this as well?”

Firstly, you don't really know what egalitarianism is. Secondly, you can't examine racism in a vacuum. It is an institutionalized cultural/societal belief that specifically propones the supremacy of certain groups over others. The theory of race, in the contexts of sociology, anthropology, political science, etc, these things extend far beyond whatever notion you cook up on a moment's thought.

[Way_of_whoa]

Agent Glitter

Way_of_whoa

but would you change yourself just so you could fit in with someone else?i really don't think so and yes my text is very very very ill written :] i accept that and true that you didn't once mention anything about skin color in there i was trying to make a point ignore it if you will i was saying i'd talk to you no matter what you were wearing but i respect you if you choose not to talk to someone else who looks different by the means of your dress you may find someone welcoming while i find them not worth talking to while

Uhm, the whole thing with stereotyping? It largely takes place because most teenagers today DO dress to fit in with whatever clique they're in. So of course I'm going to assume that they act like their clique is known for behaving, they're practically advertising that.

And it's all well and good if you'll talk to anyone no matter what they look like. But when Big Joe with the handlebar mustache, prison tats, and Harley, asks me for my number? Yeah, I'm gonna tell him 'no'.

Generally, I talk to people who I find interesting, and I don't find anyone who conforms so easily to any particular subculture to be interesting. At least, not if they conform to the more annoying ones.

I kind of like some margin of originality. CRAZY I KNOW.

Anyways, I have this job thing in... five hours! So bedtime for Agent Glitter. Night.

allright i agree with that one...see i was going for this originality thing too that seems to be lacking i'm just saying that because they dress a way doesn't mean they act that way...i believe someone can wear those chain pants you talked about with a g-unit shirt if they wanted to

[la petite chou]

Way_of_whoa

but would you change yourself just so you could fit in with someone else?i really don't think so and yes my text is very very very ill written :] i accept that and true that you didn't once mention anything about skin color in there i was trying to make a point ignore it if you will i was saying i'd talk to you no matter what you were wearing but i respect you if you choose not to talk to someone else who looks different by the means of your dress you may find someone welcoming while i find them not worth talking to while

Uhm, the whole thing with stereotyping? It largely takes place because most teenagers today DO dress to fit in with whatever clique they're in. So of course I'm going to assume that they act like their clique is known for behaving, they're practically advertising that.

And it's all well and good if you'll talk to anyone no matter what they look like. But when Big Joe with the handlebar mustache, prison tats, and Harley, asks me for my number? Yeah, I'm gonna tell him 'no'.

Generally, I talk to people who I find interesting, and I don't find anyone who conforms so easily to any particular subculture to be interesting. At least, not if they conform to the more annoying ones.

I kind of like some margin of originality. CRAZY I KNOW.

Anyways, I have this job thing in... five hours! So bedtime for Agent Glitter. Night.

[Way_of_whoa]

Agent Glitter

Way_of_whoa

sooo say if i were to walk down the street say i was dressed as perhaps what you described many would call "emo" then i must in fact be stupid?or if i look any different from you or any clique that you find good that you'd just pass any person without talking to them?but say they dressed like you then you'd instantly engage them in conversation?i respect your opinion to the fullest extent that i can though i don't agree i just think everyone should be different and not judged on their appearance i have alot of those "emos" and "goths" as friends but i also have many "ghetto" friends as well the goths and emos as many would call them act nothing like they dress and the ghetto people are extremely intelligent...i conform as well as you can tell but i do not believe in stereotypes though it's fine you do i myself would be stereotyped and a nonconformist it is inevitable to be truly out of a clique or stereotypical group...wether it's based on color or clothes but if i walked up to you and started to insult you on the basis of your skin color or clothes and then you ask me "what's your problem?" does it seem right that i hate you for the way you look?

Uhm, did I say anything about the color of someone's skin in my little tirade about sterotyping?

If I see you talking to me on the internet with a big huge chunk of ill-written text, though, I'll probably ignore most of what you have to say, as I can't be buggered to try and read through that mess.

What I gathered, though, is that you don't like people thinking you're emo / goth / whatever you are. If you don't like them thinking that, then stop wearing the damn [ insert subculture here ] uniform.

but would you change yourself just so you could fit in with someone else?i really don't think so and yes my text is very very very ill written :] i accept that and true that you didn't once mention anything about skin color in there i was trying to make a point ignore it if you will i was saying i'd talk to you no matter what you were wearing but i respect you if you choose not to talk to someone else who looks different by the means of your dress you may find someone welcoming while i find them not worth talking to while

[la petite chou]

Way_of_whoa

sooo say if i were to walk down the street say i was dressed as perhaps what you described many would call "emo" then i must in fact be stupid?or if i look any different from you or any clique that you find good that you'd just pass any person without talking to them?but say they dressed like you then you'd instantly engage them in conversation?i respect your opinion to the fullest extent that i can though i don't agree i just think everyone should be different and not judged on their appearance i have alot of those "emos" and "goths" as friends but i also have many "ghetto" friends as well the goths and emos as many would call them act nothing like they dress and the ghetto people are extremely intelligent...i conform as well as you can tell but i do not believe in stereotypes though it's fine you do i myself would be stereotyped and a nonconformist it is inevitable to be truly out of a clique or stereotypical group...wether it's based on color or clothes but if i walked up to you and started to insult you on the basis of your skin color or clothes and then you ask me "what's your problem?" does it seem right that i hate you for the way you look?

Uhm, did I say anything about the color of someone's skin in my little tirade about sterotyping?

If I see you talking to me on the internet with a big huge chunk of ill-written text, though, I'll probably ignore most of what you have to say, as I can't be buggered to try and read through that mess.

What I gathered, though, is that you don't like people thinking you're emo / goth / whatever you are. If you don't like them thinking that, then stop wearing the damn [ insert subculture here ] uniform.

[Way_of_whoa]

Agent Glitter

Personally, I'm a strong defender of stereotyping. Stereotyping isn't some 'new' thing that we've only just now started to do. Humans as a whole are a species that likes to fit things into neat little boxes and group them so they all make sense. That's only several thousand years of evolution working toward that (or the way God created us, depending on what you believe).

Stereotyping is a good thing. Honestly? Most of the time? Stereotypes are right on the money.

"Blah blah blah, you should get to know people before you judge them."

Oh? So that bloke with the leather jacket, bald head, and mean look on his face? I suppose I should go up an introduce myself to him, for all I know, he's a great fan of Yeats. And he very well may be! But he's just as likely to be a dangerous as I think he is, and it's my own perogative if I want to steer clear of him.

If I see some prat wearing black pants with goofy chains all over them, plastic-looking black hair in their face, eyeliner caked on so thcik they look like they'e been punched, and a Simple Plan shirt? Then I'm going to assume that they're stupid, and I doubt I'll waste much time getting to know them either.

STEREOTYPING. It's a good thing. If you hate being stereotyped as what-have-you, then that's a personal issue. Because that is the way people perceive you when they pass you on the street. If you don't like the way you're being stereotyped, then maybe you need to re-think the image you're projecting in public.

sooo say if i were to walk down the street say i was dressed as perhaps what you described many would call "emo" then i must in fact be stupid?or if i look any different from you or any clique that you find good that you'd just pass any person without talking to them?but say they dressed like you then you'd instantly engage them in conversation?i respect your opinion to the fullest extent that i can though i don't agree i just think everyone should be different and not judged on their appearance i have alot of those "emos" and "goths" as friends but i also have many "ghetto" friends as well the goths and emos as many would call them act nothing like they dress and the ghetto people are extremely intelligent...i conform as well as you can tell but i do not believe in stereotypes though it's fine you do i myself would be stereotyped and a nonconformist it is inevitable to be truly out of a clique or stereotypical group...wether it's based on color or clothes but if i walked up to you and started to insult you on the basis of your skin color or clothes and then you ask me "what's your problem?" does it seem right that i hate you for the way you look?

[la petite chou]

YoshiKaji

Let me explain something here. One half of stereotyping is how you are projecting yourself. HOWEVER, the other half is the image that the people already have in mind when they see you. You make it seem as if hating to be stereotyped is wrong, when it's not. Even though I don't project the average "black female" image, some will continue to put me in that category. In short, it's not always our fault that people stereotype. Think about THAT.

And that's the difference between stereotyping and racism. The 'black female' thing shouldn't affect the opinion one has of someone.

[YoshiKaji]

Agent Glitter

Personally, I'm a strong defender of stereotyping. Stereotyping isn't some 'new' thing that we've only just now started to do. Humans as a whole are a species that likes to fit things into neat little boxes and group them so they all make sense. That's only several thousand years of evolution working toward that (or the way God created us, depending on what you believe).

Stereotyping is a good thing. Honestly? Most of the time? Stereotypes are right on the money.

"Blah blah blah, you should get to know people before you judge them."

Oh? So that bloke with the leather jacket, bald head, and mean look on his face? I suppose I should go up an introduce myself to him, for all I know, he's a great fan of Yeats. And he very well may be! But he's just as likely to be a dangerous as I think he is, and it's my own perogative if I want to steer clear of him.

If I see some prat wearing black pants with goofy chains all over them, plastic-looking black hair in their face, eyeliner caked on so thcik they look like they'e been punched, and a Simple Plan shirt? Then I'm going to assume that they're stupid, and I doubt I'll waste much time getting to know them either.

STEREOTYPING. It's a good thing. If you hate being stereotyped as what-have-you, then that's a personal issue. Because that is the way people perceive you when they pass you on the street. If you don't like the way you're being stereotyped, then maybe you need to re-think the image you're projecting in public.

Let me explain something here. One half of stereotyping is how you are projecting yourself. HOWEVER, the other half is the image that the people already have in mind when they see you. You make it seem as if hating to be stereotyped is wrong, when it's not. Even though I don't project the average "black female" image, some will continue to put me in that category. In short, it's not always our fault that people stereotype. Think about THAT.

[nooneatall16]

Rossii

Racism, in my opinion, is looking at a group of people and deciding that they are not as worthy as a different group in social or legal terms. "Racism" is a loaded term in modern times because of its negative connotations. It would be unacceptable to call someone a racist for simply acknowledging differences between races. Racism implies the supremacy of one race over another.

It is accepted though. That is exactly how the term is used against modern psychologists and such by antiracist groups. And even Tom Metzger god father of the Nazi skinhead movement has said he doesn't consider Whites superior to all other races.

[la petite chou]

YoshiKaji

Agent Glitter

It's environment and choices, in my opinion. Of course there are people who will be more intelligent, and less intelligent, but that's not based on the colors of their skin.

However, the problem with a lot of racism against blacks is that they perpetuate their own stereotypes. For every black person I meet that acts like someone with a functional brain, there seem to be at least five others in either huge clothes that might fit a nice homeless family (if they're male) or clothes about eight sizes too small. Talking loudly on their cellphones, being rude with salespeople, and generally being an a**.

Of course, if someone says, "Act like you've some class," though, the racism card gets played.

Obviously, this behavior is not at all limited to black people (stupidity is universal), but it seems to be much more common with them in America.

... -waits to be attacked by the ghetto- biggrin

Keep in mind that not ALL blacks act this way. I know for a fact that I don't. Statements like this makes it even harder for blacks like me who act like they've got common sense. Don't stereotype all of us based on the ones you've seen.

Oy, I don't stereotype the blacks who don't act like this. I'm just saying that, unfortunately, a large percentage of black people in America do act like this, and it contributes to the problem with racism. And while you see tons of people on TV talking about how racism is a big problem in America, you neever see one person say, "Hey, all you other black people out there making us look bad. Stop that. You're being idiots."

Oh, except when Bill Cosby did that. Of course, he got attacked by the media for it, so lot of help that did.

I will now also add the pat excuse that pretty much ever white girl has to use when she criticizes ghetto culture: Some of my closest friends are black. Which is true, not that I can prove it over the internet.