Childish Intellect
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Mister Yen
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Mister Yen
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Srintella Tiagara
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Mister Yen
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Srintella Tiagara
Wealthy Hoarder
MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
Omnipresent Spirit
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Lilith_Lilium
MegaTurkey
They're planning a holiday. So what's your point? I went travelling around Peru with friends for a month and a half when I was 16. Yet working in the NHS as a senior clinician you have 30-something days of annual leave and a max extended period of 3 weeks, dependent on your colleagues in your department covering your duties which realistically won't happen for more than two weeks at a go.
Where you completely financially independent at 16? It's different when you're an adult in debt with a low paying job. Point is, yeah people with high paying jobs like surgeons can and do in fact get to spend the money they make on experiences. A lot of people don't and can't afford such a vacation. The lose of such opportunities is the price of poverty and being in debt. A person could work as a plastic surgeon rather than for emergency too, not all high paying jobs require not being able to have significant time off.
It's also often that many of today's youth that go into college, usually don't pay back the money afterwards. I understand if you successfully survive those 12 years for a doctorate, it's likely you will pay it back, considering you already start getting paid somewhere after 6-8 years of study? Anyway, just another thing to consider, and I’ve been told that a lot of people have to take drugs just to focus more on the amount of work that needs to be done, like is it really that amount of work?
I want to interject here:
Med school is 4 years + 4 year undergrad. Typical residencies (+ fellowship training) range from ~4 years to 6 years, with surgeons upwards of 8 years (IIRC). The average residency pays ~45k (You are not expected to begin paying off student debt during this time, you won't afford it). Average student debt obtained is 220-260k with starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range.
Granted, I plan on becoming an anesthesiologist. I'm choosing it almost 50/50 for the money and because it's something I like doing. I like biology and chemistry. And growing up, we didn't really have the money to do things. I want to travel with my kids.
Going the doctor route gives me that mix of doing what I like and having the lifestyle I want.
In the UK the starting salary of an NHS doctor is £22,636, which is less than the average university graduate. For a registrar (a specialist trainee in whatever - surgery, anaesthetics, etc) that starting salary is £30,002. The annual pay for an NHS consultant (a fully qualified doctor in their speciality in the UK) is between £75,249 and £101,451, dependent on length of service. Private practice in the UK fares even worse, here is an extract from the Royal College of Surgeons England with regards to pay in private practice.
Quote:
There is a perception that those doctors (and particularly surgeons) undertaking private practice are very generously remunerated financially. The reality, however, is that most surgeons do only relatively small volumes of private practice on top of their NHS commitments.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
These figures are all before tax is deducted, which if your salary is over £41,000, your income tax is 40%. Obviously in the US’s privatised system there is capacity for varying rates of pay however to be honest with you I’m sure your figures are so mindblowingly warped when compared to the reality of the situation, if you brought this up to any of your seniors, they would laugh hysterically at you. "starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range" come on man, that's absolutely ludicrous, wherever you work! rofl
Nonetheless from your conviction towards anaesthetics, you must be pretty experienced and at most only a year or two from graduating. So tell me, what experiences in your attachments drew you to that rather than the other specialities? I'm yet to hear someone tell me they chose something because of "the pay" but you yourself said you enjoy doing it, so what have you enjoyed so far? And have you taken a particular liking towards any of intra-operative, critical care or pain management? Is there a residency which is equivalent to what we call ACCS (acute care common stem) so your rotations encompass GIM & AIM, anaesthetics, ICM and EM?
First off, I apologize if I gave the impression that I'm a med-student, currently I am still in pre-med (working toward a degree in Biological Sciences). sweatdrop I've just had the privilege of talking to quite a few people.
I've wanted to be an anesthesiologist since the 7th grade. I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse and we pretty much planned our lives together. Unfortunately, she's no longer around and when I moved I thought about becoming an engineer (this one was mostly for the money) before I realized I suck at math and talked to some friends who are engineers (It pays, networking-wise to go to a top 10 engineering school).
As for what I'm am leaning toward, I'm not entirely sure at this point. Possibly intra-operative or general pain management
I'll admit, it appears I pulled the 700k figure from my a** a bit. Look specifically at Orthopedics. Now I'm curious as to how I warped it...
Keep in mind, these are US figures. Our medical system is horribly bloated compared to other countries.
J a r a m a y aa
9,200 Points
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MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
Acroo
Lilith_Lilium
Where you completely financially independent at 16? It's different when you're an adult in debt with a low paying job. Point is, yeah people with high paying jobs like surgeons can and do in fact get to spend the money they make on experiences. A lot of people don't and can't afford such a vacation. The lose of such opportunities is the price of poverty and being in debt. A person could work as a plastic surgeon rather than for emergency too, not all high paying jobs require not being able to have significant time off.
It's also often that many of today's youth that go into college, usually don't pay back the money afterwards. I understand if you successfully survive those 12 years for a doctorate, it's likely you will pay it back, considering you already start getting paid somewhere after 6-8 years of study? Anyway, just another thing to consider, and I’ve been told that a lot of people have to take drugs just to focus more on the amount of work that needs to be done, like is it really that amount of work?
I want to interject here:
Med school is 4 years + 4 year undergrad. Typical residencies (+ fellowship training) range from ~4 years to 6 years, with surgeons upwards of 8 years (IIRC). The average residency pays ~45k (You are not expected to begin paying off student debt during this time, you won't afford it). Average student debt obtained is 220-260k with starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range.
Granted, I plan on becoming an anesthesiologist. I'm choosing it almost 50/50 for the money and because it's something I like doing. I like biology and chemistry. And growing up, we didn't really have the money to do things. I want to travel with my kids.
Going the doctor route gives me that mix of doing what I like and having the lifestyle I want.
In the UK the starting salary of an NHS doctor is £22,636, which is less than the average university graduate. For a registrar (a specialist trainee in whatever - surgery, anaesthetics, etc) that starting salary is £30,002. The annual pay for an NHS consultant (a fully qualified doctor in their speciality in the UK) is between £75,249 and £101,451, dependent on length of service. Private practice in the UK fares even worse, here is an extract from the Royal College of Surgeons England with regards to pay in private practice.
Quote:
There is a perception that those doctors (and particularly surgeons) undertaking private practice are very generously remunerated financially. The reality, however, is that most surgeons do only relatively small volumes of private practice on top of their NHS commitments.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
These figures are all before tax is deducted, which if your salary is over £41,000, your income tax is 40%. Obviously in the US’s privatised system there is capacity for varying rates of pay however to be honest with you I’m sure your figures are so mindblowingly warped when compared to the reality of the situation, if you brought this up to any of your seniors, they would laugh hysterically at you. "starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range" come on man, that's absolutely ludicrous, wherever you work! rofl
Nonetheless from your conviction towards anaesthetics, you must be pretty experienced and at most only a year or two from graduating. So tell me, what experiences in your attachments drew you to that rather than the other specialities? I'm yet to hear someone tell me they chose something because of "the pay" but you yourself said you enjoy doing it, so what have you enjoyed so far? And have you taken a particular liking towards any of intra-operative, critical care or pain management? Is there a residency which is equivalent to what we call ACCS (acute care common stem) so your rotations encompass GIM & AIM, anaesthetics, ICM and EM?
First off, I apologize if I gave the impression that I'm a med-student, currently I am still in pre-med (working toward a degree in Biological Sciences). sweatdrop I've just had the privilege of talking to quite a few people.
I've wanted to be an anesthesiologist since the 7th grade. I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse and we pretty much planned our lives together. Unfortunately, she's no longer around and when I moved I thought about becoming an engineer (this one was mostly for the money) before I realized I suck at math and talked to some friends who are engineers (It pays, networking-wise to go to a top 10 engineering school).
As for what I'm am leaning toward, I'm not entirely sure at this point. Possibly intra-operative or general pain management
I'll admit, it appears I pulled the 700k figure from my a** a bit. Look specifically at Orthopedics. Now I'm curious as to how I warped it...
Keep in mind, these are US figures. Our medical system is horribly bloated compared to other countries.
I love how, with absolutely no experience whatsoever, not even preclinical, you've not only decided medical or surgical (which a hell of a lot of junior doctors struggle with) but have decided upon a speciality...and a niche within that. lol A bit of advice for you - you're not only jumping the gun here, you're jumping the birth of the person firing it! And admissions teams won't look favourably upon it, apart from having a good laugh, because it's mad! There's no shame in being honest, taking it one step at a time and when someone asks you that, saying you don't know yet because you're very early on in your career and despite seeing a snapshot of anaesthetics which inspired you, you're keeping an open mind. Talking to people is not experience, neither is watching TV shows in hospital settings or even shadowing someone on work experience for your application. Aside from the fact that you have absolutely no idea of the underlying knowledge base, the practical skills involved, duties, lifestyle and postgraduate training scheme of an anaesthetist, or most importantly a feel for the environment, your colleagues and the patients you see, you've just overlooked 60 different specialities and their subspecialties! You go to medical school to become a doctor, that's it, not a fancy pants paediatric craniofacial neuroanaesthetist (and that really doesn't involve any of the principles of chemistry).
With regards to salaries, well as you can see, even from your own source (which can be disputed) you are citing an outlier and you're still overestimating your figure that is from a single highly specialised and competitive speciality (spinal orthopaedics) with a huge capacity for elective procedures treating back pain. Also the figure is a median value, which works both ways - you can expect 50% of people to make less than that too. And it is a gross salary figure which doesn't account for tax and the other costs in practice that say someone working in ID & micro won't have to account for. It's also a figure solely representative of senior clinicians. At the end of the day, numbers online mean nothing. Despite the lifestyle, doctors do make enough to live comfortably whatever their circumstances are (a surgeon's starting salary is not just shy of half a million USD and the average salary is not a few grand off thee quarters of a million USD!), however the real world is complicated not only in the job they do but also in terms of what someone actually takes home at the end of the day in their back pocket. If you want to find out how much someone is making, how they got there and what they do every day to make it, accounting for real world variables, ask them. I'm not an engineer in any way but an analogy that springs to mind is the mechanics you do in secondary school is simple, idealised and "true" but it doesn't account for the complex reality of air resistance. Sorry I can be a bit blunt, good luck with your application when the time comes.
A Random Act of Terror
Omnipresent Spirit
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MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
Acroo
It's also often that many of today's youth that go into college, usually don't pay back the money afterwards. I understand if you successfully survive those 12 years for a doctorate, it's likely you will pay it back, considering you already start getting paid somewhere after 6-8 years of study? Anyway, just another thing to consider, and I’ve been told that a lot of people have to take drugs just to focus more on the amount of work that needs to be done, like is it really that amount of work?
I want to interject here:
Med school is 4 years + 4 year undergrad. Typical residencies (+ fellowship training) range from ~4 years to 6 years, with surgeons upwards of 8 years (IIRC). The average residency pays ~45k (You are not expected to begin paying off student debt during this time, you won't afford it). Average student debt obtained is 220-260k with starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range.
Granted, I plan on becoming an anesthesiologist. I'm choosing it almost 50/50 for the money and because it's something I like doing. I like biology and chemistry. And growing up, we didn't really have the money to do things. I want to travel with my kids.
Going the doctor route gives me that mix of doing what I like and having the lifestyle I want.
In the UK the starting salary of an NHS doctor is £22,636, which is less than the average university graduate. For a registrar (a specialist trainee in whatever - surgery, anaesthetics, etc) that starting salary is £30,002. The annual pay for an NHS consultant (a fully qualified doctor in their speciality in the UK) is between £75,249 and £101,451, dependent on length of service. Private practice in the UK fares even worse, here is an extract from the Royal College of Surgeons England with regards to pay in private practice.
Quote:
There is a perception that those doctors (and particularly surgeons) undertaking private practice are very generously remunerated financially. The reality, however, is that most surgeons do only relatively small volumes of private practice on top of their NHS commitments.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
To give this issue some perspective, a surgeon undertaking private practice and receiving £100,000 remuneration a year, will be paying practice costs (secretary, room hire, stationery, I.T. costs etc) of anything up to 40%, i.e. £40,000. It is compulsory for the surgeon to have medical negligence Insurance or indemnity cover. This may well cost as much as £20,000 per annum. This leaves a net income of £40,000 from the original £100,000 invoiced. This £40,000 will be subject to income tax of 40%. Thus, the initially attractive appearing sum of £100,000 actually equates to a real income of about £20,000.
It should therefore be emphasised that the number of surgeons actually earning significant incomes from private practice is, in reality, very small.
These figures are all before tax is deducted, which if your salary is over £41,000, your income tax is 40%. Obviously in the US’s privatised system there is capacity for varying rates of pay however to be honest with you I’m sure your figures are so mindblowingly warped when compared to the reality of the situation, if you brought this up to any of your seniors, they would laugh hysterically at you. "starting salaries for surgeons in the upper 400k range and the average in the 700k range" come on man, that's absolutely ludicrous, wherever you work! rofl
Nonetheless from your conviction towards anaesthetics, you must be pretty experienced and at most only a year or two from graduating. So tell me, what experiences in your attachments drew you to that rather than the other specialities? I'm yet to hear someone tell me they chose something because of "the pay" but you yourself said you enjoy doing it, so what have you enjoyed so far? And have you taken a particular liking towards any of intra-operative, critical care or pain management? Is there a residency which is equivalent to what we call ACCS (acute care common stem) so your rotations encompass GIM & AIM, anaesthetics, ICM and EM?
First off, I apologize if I gave the impression that I'm a med-student, currently I am still in pre-med (working toward a degree in Biological Sciences). sweatdrop I've just had the privilege of talking to quite a few people.
I've wanted to be an anesthesiologist since the 7th grade. I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse and we pretty much planned our lives together. Unfortunately, she's no longer around and when I moved I thought about becoming an engineer (this one was mostly for the money) before I realized I suck at math and talked to some friends who are engineers (It pays, networking-wise to go to a top 10 engineering school).
As for what I'm am leaning toward, I'm not entirely sure at this point. Possibly intra-operative or general pain management
I'll admit, it appears I pulled the 700k figure from my a** a bit. Look specifically at Orthopedics. Now I'm curious as to how I warped it...
Keep in mind, these are US figures. Our medical system is horribly bloated compared to other countries.
I love how, with absolutely no experience whatsoever, not even preclinical, you've not only decided medical or surgical (which a hell of a lot of junior doctors struggle with) but have decided upon a speciality...and a niche within that. lol A bit of advice for you - you're not only jumping the gun here, you're jumping the birth of the person firing it! And admissions teams won't look favourably upon it, apart from having a good laugh, because it's mad! Talking to people is not experience, neither is watching TV shows in hospital settings or even shadowing someone on work experience for your application. Aside from the fact that you have absolutely no idea of the underlying knowledge base, the practical skills involved, duties, lifestyle and postgraduate training scheme of an anaesthetist, or most importantly a feel for the environment, your colleagues and the patients you see, you've just overlooked 60 different specialities and their subspecialties! You go to medical school to become a doctor, that's it, not a fancy pants paediatric craniofacial neuroanaesthetist.
With regards to salaries, well as you can see, even from your own source (which can be disputed) you are citing an outlier and you're still overestimating your figure that is from a single highly specialised and competitive speciality (spinal orthopaedics) with a huge capacity for elective procedures treating back pain. Also the figure is a median value, which works both ways - you can expect 50% of people to make less than that too. And it is a gross salary figure which doesn't account for tax and the other costs in practice that say someone working in ID & micro won't have to account for. It's also a figure representative of senior clinicians. At the end of the day, numbers online mean nothing. Despite the lifestyle, doctors do make enough to live comfortably whatever their circumstances are, however the real world is complicated not only in the job that you do but also in terms of what you actually take home at the end of the day in your back pocket.
I'm going to assume you have no working knowledge of the term "outlier" lol I posted two distinct sources which are averages. I already acknowledged that I was off on the upper range, but if you would note, the average starting salary for the bulk of the surgical fields listed in both sources is in the $400k range, not limited to just spinal orthopedics (which is not what I was specifically referencing, if you'll also note I said "orthopedics" in general). Those figures are representative of median starting and average pay after 6 years. I assume you were going to make a point here? Because yes, any data should be assumed some variance (For instance, the East and West coasts of the US make above the average, the midwest/south a little below.). And if you'll notice, I actually referenced two sources. Yes, they can be disputed, but I don't see you actually doing so. And I still have no idea what point you're trying to drive at the difference of take-home pay vs. gross earnings. Regardless, it's a shitload of money no matter how you slice it.
And believe it or not, job shadowing is experience. What you're doing is getting a taste of the day-to-day duties of whomever you're shadowing. I happened to shadow an anesthesiologist who works in general pain management and one who works an administrative position (as well as a had the privilege of talking/shadowing with a general practitioner, 2 dentists, an oncologist, a radiologist, and a cardiologist. As well as several med students ranging from MS1- 3rd year residency in various fields). So, yeah, tell me I'm jumping the gun, but do respect that I have my house in order and am continually seeking input from people in the fields I plan on going into. I've already officially changed my under-grad major once, maybe I'll decide on a different branch of medicine before I make MS4, maybe not.
The only doctor shows I've watched is House, MD. which, while heavily romanticized, is a far cry from an anesthesiologist. That being said, I never based my decision to become a doctor based on "lol he's a doctor I could solve cases and do drugs"
I'll cite the first anesthesiologist I mentioned. He's 35 (4 years out of residency, 3 at his current job) and has a job making ~305k/year (includes malpractice insurance and I don't recall his exact amount of weeks time off, as well as other bonuses). He actually turned down a position that paid 360k + the previously mentioned because he liked the area and the hospital. His day to day duties range clinical work to perioperative patient care. I never asked him what his take-home pay, but going off the average of ~30% in taxes, it's not a far cry to estimate his take-home at ~200k, not including any private insurance / what have you. Also, for Shits and Giggles, I happen to know he drives a 2012 CTS-V (Valued at ~58k when he bought it, off my own math) and his wife (an RN) a 2013 ML350 (valued at 65k, again, off my own math) as well as own a ~650k home (I've been to it) with 2 kids (well, the 2nd is on the way).
Before you cry "muh anecdotal evidence," I'm aware that one man is not indicative of everyone and that mileage may vary. But please give me credit, I've done my homework, I know what I'm talking about.
And please, before you reference the United Kingdom, please note I am referencing the United States. There is a slight difference.
MegaTurkey
A Random Act of Terror
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Kutesii
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