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Lonely Friend

Hmmmm... a Theistic Deity.... isn't that a little redundant?? Or are you stating a god who believes in a god?

Anyhow, to answer your question.... I don't know what that means because I never use it. Or rather , seldom.

I stated once that I experienced Kokopelli when I was younger. What I meant by that was that when I was younger I would often go up into the Mountains of New Mexico deep within the Navajo reservations... and every time I breathed and every time I listened... it felt like I was both breathing in and hearing a magikal flute music -- even though I wasn't. When I was younger I didn't understand it; I simply felt it.... years later I came to realize that it was most likely the Navajo fertility god Kokopelli that I was experiencing.

Call me crazy if you like, but I believe in Kokopelli's existance because of my experience of the sensation of nonexistent flute music in the Navajo reservations when I was a small girl.
Gonecrazy12345
So basically in a nutshell, your feeling comes down to the idea that there's something more to what we see? Does this feeling come to you because of a logical reason like you described in your "corny story" (I don't think it's corny, I think a lot of people feel the way you do) or does it come from an emotional/spiritual response? Both?

Also it sounds like perhaps you believe in some sort of intelligent design? I'm not referring to the intelligent design that is antithetical to evolution, I'm talking about the idea that there was an intelligent mind that created the natural laws of our universe.

I would say that accurately summarizes what I was trying to say, yes. cat_3nodding When I get these feelings... Well... They are definitely more emotional or spiritual than logical. Because they are feelings, after all. But logical things like science can and do cause them, yes.

I guess when I feel that way, it starts as an emotional response that further progresses into a spiritual realization.

Oh, definitely a supporter of intelligent design. cat_3nodding I have no problem accepting things like evolution and the big bang. That sort of stuff. While I agree with those things, I also am filled with a strong sense of something or someone being the mastermind behind it all.
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Gonecrazy12345
Maybe you have experienced it, I'm not sure. Basically my existential crisis made me feel like I was literally going insane. I got to the point that I didn't even know if it was worth it expressing anything linguistically anymore, with people and with myself. My mind also got even more confused, because when I was having this thought that I couldn't express what I was thinking with language, I was reading Ludwig Wittgenstein's work. If you're not familiar with that philosopher, one of his important arguments is that language is a public bi-product and there's no such thing as a private language, and furthermore he proposed that all knowledge and thoughts could be expressed with language. Well this directly contradicted what I was thinking, which made me even more confused. There's much more to my existential crisis then that, but basically what happened in my experience was that I lost all confidence in any form of knowledge and any foundation of knowledge, which also had really negative impacts on me emotionally as well. I still think I'm getting over my existential crisis, but I'm definitely feeling and doing a lot better than I was just like 6 months ago.


The name is familiar to me. I recall you making a thread (or it could have been someone else) about language games and how language only has relevance to what is being discussed. In that thread, someone used Yu-Gi-Oh as an example.

Gonecrazy12345
The "failed" Documentary Hypothesis? To my knowledge the Documentary Hypothesis is the most legitimate theory on the authors of The Bible. To my knowledge, the majority of well accredited biblical scholars who actually post peer reviewed studies, accept the Documentary Hypothesis. For example people like Bart Ehrman and Richard Elliott Friedman.


There are those who still accept the Mosaic view of the Torah. Some may still accept it, some may still promote it. I am of the opinion that Moses didn't write the Torah by himself, but I do not readily accept the Documentary Hypothesis like I used to. I am indifferent about it. Here is an article. Feel free to read it at your leisure.

Gonecrazy12345
So you still believe in Yahweh, but are you also a Pagan? For example, I know that in parts of Genesis (Forgot if it was J or E that called God "El" ) and of course El was actually one of the pagan god's of the early Isrealite religion along with Yahweh who was one of the god's as well. But then of course there's the passage in Exodus that says that El and Yahweh are the same God (but according to the Documentary Hypothesis, the person who wrote this passage in Exodus was an author much later than J and E).

I'm just confused with what you believe now. You don't call yourself a Christian, and I'm assuming you don't consider yourself a follower of Judaism either, but you believe Yahweh (or do you believe a different God and believe Yahweh is a false God of The Bible? Just like how according to the Documentary Hypothesis, much of the Torah acknowledges pagan God's when you recognize that many of the books in the Torah were written by multiple authors at different times in Israel's history). Do you believe Jesus died for your sins anymore?


Yes, I still believe in Yahweh, although not in the same way many Jews and Christians do today. I don't have a label for myself, unless you want to call me a polytheist.

'El was the name of the chief god in Canaanite religion. It is also a generic Hebrew word for "god", which can be applied to any god, including the god of Israel.

When I was a Christian, I thought that if I was not one, I'd want to join Judaism. The problem with that was I needed a rabbi to convert, and it isn't a religion you can just join. So I decided I would just study further on ancient Near Eastern religion.

I do not believe Jesus died for my sins anymore.


1. Yeah I remember that thread. I'm still struggling to completely understand Ludwig Wittgenstein. He sounds interesting to me though. Right now I'm reading a book on the philosophy of language by a logical positivist. I know that Bertrand Russell and Wittgenstein used to be logical positivists but then they abandoned it later on, Wittgenstein specifically dismissed in his book that he didn't actually get to complete in his life time, The Philosophical Investigations. I think that if I understand what he used to believe, and if I read a book that get's into philosophy of language, that I will then be more equipped to understand Ludwig Wittgenstein.

2. Thanks for the article, I'll read it later on. Yeah after reading the Torah, and specifically reading Richard Elliot Friedman's The Bible with Sources Revealed, I personally am really skeptical of the idea that Moses wrote the Torah himself. I'm no expert and no linguist, but even I could see a world's difference in books when I read Deuteronomy compared to the other books. Deuteronomy just read completely differently than the other books, it was completely obvious to me as soon as I started reading Deuteronomy that it was written by someone completely different than the other 4 books. Also another question I have is, the people who believe Moses wrote the Torah, do they actually have linguistic, archaeological, historical, and other "scientific" reasons to believe that? Or are these people just taking it for granted that Moses wrote the Torah because that's their theological and religious view?

I've also heard biblical scholars claim that it's questionable whether Moses (as described in The Bible) was even a real person, and also it's debatable whether the story in Exodus of the Jews being enslaved by the Egyptians and them roaming around the desert for 40 years even happened. I've read that there's little to no evidence that these events even happened.

3. Hmm okay, well I guess it really doesn't matter what I could label you anyways, I was just curious what you believe now. It seems like to me, you still are learning about the early Near Eastern religions and are still in the process of forming your beliefs.

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I experience God when I view nature and all of His creation. I experience God when my prayers are answered. I experience God when I feel like life isn't worth living but somehow feel He is with me and gets me through those dark times. Asking "how do you experience God" is like asking "how do you experience seeing your newborn baby for the first time, or meeting your true love or losing a parent or child or being told you have cancer....it isn't something that can really be put into words. It is something that you experience, know you have experienced, but in no way can fully give the full experience to others. It is both happy and wonderful like love or seeing a newborn child and scary like being told you have cancer. By scary I refer to experiencing God's wrath or unhappiness when I fall from His grace and do not seek His face and forgiveness. If you really want to experience God you must first believe that He is God and then even nature itself will show you His glory.

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Gonecrazy12345
Kind of a side note to this thread, but I'm curious as to why you believe El is more of a human God than perhaps the God of Yahweh.


When I said "'El 'Elyon", I was referring to the god of Israel. I suppose some confusion occurred there because that was also the name of 'El, chief of the pantheon. I think all the gods are more human than what Jews and Christians, and even Muslims think today. Consider the views of those who believed in the Greek gods. Those gods were more human than God as you and I understand.

Gonecrazy12345
I actually would agree with that statement, for example I would refer to the fact that the god Jacob wrestled with who later named him "Israel" was El, not Yahweh (Of course interpreting this fact in the perspective of the Documentary Hypothesis).


The one who wrestled with Jacob is understood to be the messenger of Yahweh, who is the shaliach of God. (Hosea identifies this as an angel, which simply means "messenger".) A shaliach is one who has the divine prerogatives of God, and therefore, can be called "Yahweh". A good example is Joseph in the book of Genesis. Pharaoh puts Joseph as second-in-command, and anyone who wants to see Pharaoh needs to go to Joseph. To speak to Joseph is as if one was speaking to Pharaoh. Observe this passage.

Gonecrazy12345
Furthermore in other parts of Genesis, for example another part I remember is when God arguably came to earth to Abraham to visit his nephew Lot in the form of one of the three men (Which is debatable, in the Morality & Religion forum a while ago, I argued with one of the posters who said that none of the men were God and all of them were angels. My interpretation was that one of them was God and the other two were angels).


Three "men" approached Abraham, and the two "men" left while God stayed. The two "men" who warned Lot were revealed to be angels.

Gonecrazy12345
Regardless though, according to my interpretation of the scripture, I noticed a difference between the God in Genesis compared to the God after Exodus. The God after Exodus seemed to be different and less human than El in Genesis. For example in Exodus no one is allowed to see God except for Moses, and no one ever even got to see God in human form, including Moses.

Just curious what your thoughts are on this.


This is where the idea of DH comes in. God is sometimes portrayed as distant, whereas other times He is anthropomorphized, or so Christians today say. An example is Genesis 1 and 2. In the first chapter God seems distant. There is no humanity present. In chapter 2, God is portrayed more human. I really don't have much to say about this except that.
I believe in gods with an 's' and no capitalization.

:/

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Ivy Willowtree
Hmmmm... a Theistic Deity.... isn't that a little redundant?? Or are you stating a god who believes in a god?

Anyhow, to answer your question.... I don't know what that means because I never use it. Or rather , seldom.

I stated once that I experienced Kokopelli when I was younger. What I meant by that was that when I was younger I would often go up into the Mountains of New Mexico deep within the Navajo reservations... and every time I breathed and every time I listened... it felt like I was both breathing in and hearing a magikal flute music -- even though I wasn't. When I was younger I didn't understand it; I simply felt it.... years later I came to realize that it was most likely the Navajo fertility god Kokopelli that I was experiencing.

Call me crazy if you like, but I believe in Kokopelli's existance because of my experience of the sensation of nonexistent flute music in the Navajo reservations when I was a small girl.


Haha I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have put "theistic" in the title at all.

But to give a short explanation, a theistic God would be any God/god's that are
A. Distinct and separate from our universe
B. (Not entirely sure about this) intervene in the universe

So for example, the God of The Bible is a theistic God. But say, someone who believes in a pantheistic God, a God that either the universe itself or is a part of the entire universe but not necessarily the entire universe itself, would be a non-theistic God because this God is not a separate entity from the universe.

Of course people can argue over the details of what makes a God theistic vs non-theistic, an argument which I really am not that interested in because it's really just semantics. I just put the word "theistic" in the title because my thread is aimed towards people who believe in a God that is a distinct entity from the universe and that they experience/communicate with this entity.

So Kokopelli I'm assuming is a god from one or many of the native american tribes?

Lonely Friend

Gonecrazy12345
Ivy Willowtree
Hmmmm... a Theistic Deity.... isn't that a little redundant?? Or are you stating a god who believes in a god?

Anyhow, to answer your question.... I don't know what that means because I never use it. Or rather , seldom.

I stated once that I experienced Kokopelli when I was younger. What I meant by that was that when I was younger I would often go up into the Mountains of New Mexico deep within the Navajo reservations... and every time I breathed and every time I listened... it felt like I was both breathing in and hearing a magikal flute music -- even though I wasn't. When I was younger I didn't understand it; I simply felt it.... years later I came to realize that it was most likely the Navajo fertility god Kokopelli that I was experiencing.

Call me crazy if you like, but I believe in Kokopelli's existance because of my experience of the sensation of nonexistent flute music in the Navajo reservations when I was a small girl.


Haha I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have put "theistic" in the title at all.

But to give a short explanation, a theistic God would be any God/god's that are
A. Distinct and separate from our universe
B. (Not entirely sure about this) intervene in the universe

So for example, the God of The Bible is a theistic God. But say, someone who believes in a pantheistic God, a God that either the universe itself or is a part of the entire universe but not necessarily the entire universe itself, would be a non-theistic God because this God is not a separate entity from the universe.

Of course people can argue over the details of what makes a God theistic vs non-theistic, an argument which I really am not that interested in because it's really just semantics. I just put the word "theistic" in the title because my thread is aimed towards people who believe in a God that is a distinct entity from the universe and that they experience/communicate with this entity.

So Kokopelli I'm assuming is a god from one or many of the native american tribes?


I suppose that makes sense. :3

And yes. Kokopelli is a Navajo (and possibly other Pueblo Indian tribes; I'm not certain on that) fertility god. He is characterized as a flute player::

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Gonecrazy12345
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...Actually the vast majority of us are atheists.


I know most people in the LD and ED are atheists, but I was referring to most people who believe in God. Regardless, whether most people who believe in God on gaia are Christian or not is not very important to my thread. The most important part of my thread is to hear what people have to say who believe in some form of a theistic God/god's.

Also yes, as I and another poster have explained, there are such things as non-theistic god's.
Ah ok that makes more sense.

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I think the only way I'm ever going to have an encounter with the divine is if I join the ranks of the people in this world who died briefly and supposedly visited an afterlife. On that matter, do google searches of Colton Burpo and Howard Storm. Enthralling stuff, that is.

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Pale Maiden April
Muslim here.

I experience God through feelings that I get every day, though other people, events, ideas, and/or places. Just the feeling of being in the presence of something greater than myself and recognizing that something as being my Creator. Signs of Him.


This, although in regards to multiple gods/goddesses. Same sort of.. symptoms, for lack of other words. It's all about perceptions, really.
God can send you a message or something that you wish for in many ways. It could be bringing good and kind-hearted people to your life, giving you a job you wanted to get, making other people tell you things you wanted to hear, acing a test, etc. It all depends on your faith and your prayers biggrin

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Gonecrazy12345
Also another question I have is, the people who believe Moses wrote the Torah, do they actually have linguistic, archaeological, historical, and other "scientific" reasons to believe that? Or are these people just taking it for granted that Moses wrote the Torah because that's their theological and religious view?


The link I gave shows that things like redundancy and God having different names was not uncommon in ancient Near Eastern literature. What the link I provided simply goes through the objections to Moses not being the author. One may compare the Torah to the Acts of the Apostles in the Greek Testament where the author refers to himself, but you do not see Moses doing this. You may say I'm in the middle, neither objecting to Moses writing the Torah, but neither accepting he wrote all of it.

Gonecrazy12345
I've also heard biblical scholars claim that it's questionable whether Moses (as described in The Bible) was even a real person, and also it's debatable whether the story in Exodus of the Jews being enslaved by the Egyptians and them roaming around the desert for 40 years even happened. I've read that there's little to no evidence that these events even happened.


I cannot say anything about this, since I haven't studied this.

Gonecrazy12345
3. Hmm okay, well I guess it really doesn't matter what I could label you anyways, I was just curious what you believe now. It seems like to me, you still are learning about the early Near Eastern religions and are still in the process of forming your beliefs.


Yeah. I kind of paused this because I am currently trying to understand physics. I felt like I should go through the arithmetics and some other stuff in math before approaching physics. I have a lot of books on theology and from authors like Augustine and Luther and Calvin, but I still need to read these. But for now, my book The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures by James B. Pritchard is giving me a glimpse of another ancient Near Eastern stories to see what they believed.
I believe I experience God in a lot of ways. I experience God through the love of my friends and family (I believe the love we give and receive is a reflection of God's love), I experience God when I hike to the top of a mountain and look out at the amazing view, or when I sit by the ocean. I experience God when I work to help those around me and see how much of a difference I can make in the world. I experience God when I get into a car accident and walk away uninjured. I experience God when I go outside for a run, and get to feel how powerful the body I've been given is.

Those are just a few of the ways I believe the divine is active in my day to day life. Obviously people who are nontheistic would chalk these up to having good friends, doing things you enjoy, and luck. It's just a matter of perspective.

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It's called schizophrenia.

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