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Mhm.
Agreed.
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Disagreed.
77%
 77%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 9


Kalathma

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:30 pm


Ok, so, is the fetus a baby? What about those five needs they teach us in school?

- Food
- Clothing
- Shelter
- Air
- Water

What does a fetus need and what doesn't it? This is what we [or at least all of my school] were taught- the five necessities for human life. Now, obviously, a fetus doesn't need clothing. Nor, if I'm informed correctly, does it need air- as it has gills. The first breathe of air is when it comes out of the v****a and is then considered a baby.

[[Sorry if this is already a topic or in the wrong place.]]

EDIT:: I'm not saying the school is right, I'm saying what they teach.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:50 pm


It doesn't ever use the gills to breathe. It gets its oxygen through the umbilical cord from the mother. The gills are most likely just leftover from some period of time when our ancestors lived in the ocean, but they never function.

But you're correct, the fetus does not breathe until it is born.

Spiral Out


Trite~Elegy

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:01 pm


Spiral Out
It doesn't ever use the gills to breathe. It gets its oxygen through the umbilical cord from the mother. The gills are most likely just leftover from some period of time when our ancestors lived in the ocean, but they never function.

But you're correct, the fetus does not breathe until it is born.


actually there have been cases of when premies whose lungs have not developed to handle oxygen in a gasous state are able to breath oxygen in a liquid state.
What I am saying is that they put the premies in a tube like vat filled with liquid oxygen.
These are very rare cases, but they do exist.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:31 pm


Madame L.
Ok, so, is the fetus a baby? What about those five needs they teach us in school?

- Food
- Clothing
- Shelter
- Air
- Water

What does a fetus need and what doesn't it? This is what we [or at least all of my school] were taught- the five necessities for human life. Now, obviously, a fetus doesn't need clothing. Nor, if I'm informed correctly, does it need air- as it has gills. The first breathe of air is when it comes out of the v****a and is then considered a baby.

[[Sorry if this is already a topic or in the wrong place.]]
This is terribly juvenile, unscientific, and displays either ignorance or wishful thinking.

This above list is a generalized, dumbed down version of the basic scientific "requirements" for something to be considered "alive," and at best I'd hope it stops being taught after 3rd grade in favor of something more accurate.

- Food - Fetuses need nourishment. They get it through the blood. All living things need nourishment to survive - some way of intaking energy (plants don't eat, they get energy from photosynthesis and sunlight, for example)


- Clothing - Humans don't need clothing.

- Shelter - Humans can survive without shelter from the elements (depending on which elements, in what quantities).

- Air - Not all living things need air. The scientific term is actually respiration. Fetuses don't need this because they get oxygen from the woman's body distributed through the blood.

- Water - this falls in with food. All living things need water through nourishment... but how they get it is not important. Again, plants suck it up through their roots. Fetuses don't need to drink water because the woman does it, and the woman, in being hydrated, keeps the fetus hydrated.



Seriously. This is a horrible list. It's based on absolutely nothing of any validity. It in no way addresses the personhood of the fetus (the baby-ness), and it is not at all convincing because you might as well just made up requirements arbitrarily... there's no justification to those things. Like I said, the list really seems like a 3rd grader's dumbed down version of the necessities of life.





Trite~Elegy
Spiral Out
It doesn't ever use the gills to breathe. It gets its oxygen through the umbilical cord from the mother. The gills are most likely just leftover from some period of time when our ancestors lived in the ocean, but they never function.

But you're correct, the fetus does not breathe until it is born.


actually there have been cases of when premies whose lungs have not developed to handle oxygen in a gasous state are able to breath oxygen in a liquid state.
What I am saying is that they put the premies in a tube like vat filled with liquid oxygen.
These are very rare cases, but they do exist.
Liquid oxygen? Are you sure? Because liquid oxygen exists only at temperatures of -360 degrees F. I somehow don't think it would survive.

Talon-chan


Kalathma

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:25 am


Talon-chan

Seriously. This is a horrible list. It's based on absolutely nothing of any validity. It in no way addresses the personhood of the fetus (the baby-ness), and it is not at all convincing because you might as well just made up requirements arbitrarily... there's no justification to those things. Like I said, the list really seems like a 3rd grader's dumbed down version of the necessities of life.


Actually, at my school, we were still being taught this in sixth or seventh, forgot which exactly, grade. I know it's innacurate, but it's what the school teaches. >< It's annoying that they tell us, after telling us the 'five basic needs,' that fetii are babies.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:51 am


Madame L.
Talon-chan

Seriously. This is a horrible list. It's based on absolutely nothing of any validity. It in no way addresses the personhood of the fetus (the baby-ness), and it is not at all convincing because you might as well just made up requirements arbitrarily... there's no justification to those things. Like I said, the list really seems like a 3rd grader's dumbed down version of the necessities of life.


Actually, at my school, we were still being taught this in sixth or seventh, forgot which exactly, grade. I know it's innacurate, but it's what the school teaches. >< It's annoying that they tell us, after telling us the 'five basic needs,' that fetii are babies.

Then bring up fetuses! Ask, "if this is true, what about fetuses?" Point out "but people can live without clothing in the proper environments!" "Not all animals/living things need 'air,' for example, 'fish.'"

It's shameful that students are still being taught that in 6th-8th grade.

Talon-chan


Trite~Elegy

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:26 am


I watched a program on it a few years ago, maybe in 01 and it was by the BBC, Talon.
I don't think it was pure liquid oxygen because the liquid they put the premie in was an amber-ish gold color and pure liquid oxygen would have no color, plus as you said it would be cold.
I'm going to see if I can dig anything up on it.

edit: AH HA! http://www.babiestoday.com/articles/1347.php?wcat=33 found something. it's not liquid oxygen but it is filling the premie's lungs with a fluid for it to breath


I'll continue looking for more.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:01 pm


The main point that I derived from this earlier was that fetusus can't survive exactly the same way that babies and humans do.

the fetus is completely dependent on the woman for its life subsistence. So, even if it was removed from the womb fully intact, it would not survive on its own.

Also, when I looked at this topic, I remembered the "Maslow hierarchy of needs" which explains that humans need their physical needs met before they can meet their emotional needs, before they can meet their individual self-actualization skills.

Thanks goes to Talon to challenge the accuracy of the information being passed around as fact.

Grip of Death


Peppermint Schnapps

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:04 pm


i was never taught that in school. in science class in 7th grade we were taught nine (or maybe six? it's one of those numbers that's divisable by three) things that constituted being alive, but i can only remember a couple of them (it wasn't anything about necessities of life, rather what constituted being a living organism). but we all know fetii are alive, so it really has no place in the abortion debate. i'm pretty sure one of them was sentience, though. arrgh, i'm so confused now, i'm going to have to go look it up.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:24 pm


Trite~Elegy
I watched a program on it a few years ago, maybe in 01 and it was by the BBC, Talon.
I don't think it was pure liquid oxygen because the liquid they put the premie in was an amber-ish gold color and pure liquid oxygen would have no color, plus as you said it would be cold.
I'm going to see if I can dig anything up on it.

edit: AH HA! http://www.babiestoday.com/articles/1347.php?wcat=33 found something. it's not liquid oxygen but it is filling the premie's lungs with a fluid for it to breath


I'll continue looking for more.
Liquid O2 has a light blue color (sky blue, one might say, even though that has nothing to do with why the sky is blue xd ). And that liquid stuff is pretty spiffy. I wonder if they could get adults to breath it... a la evangelion.


Peppermint Schnapps
i was never taught that in school. in science class in 7th grade we were taught nine (or maybe six? it's one of those numbers that's divisable by three) things that constituted being alive, but i can only remember a couple of them (it wasn't anything about necessities of life, rather what constituted being a living organism). but we all know fetii are alive, so it really has no place in the abortion debate. i'm pretty sure one of them was sentience, though. arrgh, i'm so confused now, i'm going to have to go look it up.
I think you're thinking of "responds to stimuli" which is as close to sentience as you get when it comes to requirements for life.

Keep in mind - every requirement for life must meet both humans and the tiniest amoeba. Being aware, being able to feel, being able to think - none are necessary to be alive.

Talon-chan


Fran Salaska

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:34 pm


Peppermint Schnapps
i was never taught that in school. in science class in 7th grade we were taught nine (or maybe six? it's one of those numbers that's divisable by three) things that constituted being alive, but i can only remember a couple of them (it wasn't anything about necessities of life, rather what constituted being a living organism). but we all know fetii are alive, so it really has no place in the abortion debate. i'm pretty sure one of them was sentience, though. arrgh, i'm so confused now, i'm going to have to go look it up.


I was taught that, and it was seven things, 'cause they spelled MRS NERG.

I don't know what they all are, but I'm pretty sure Growing is one. >.< Ooh, Respiration. And maybe Excreting? Or something. :/
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:37 pm


Talon-chan
Trite~Elegy
I watched a program on it a few years ago, maybe in 01 and it was by the BBC, Talon.
I don't think it was pure liquid oxygen because the liquid they put the premie in was an amber-ish gold color and pure liquid oxygen would have no color, plus as you said it would be cold.
I'm going to see if I can dig anything up on it.

edit: AH HA! http://www.babiestoday.com/articles/1347.php?wcat=33 found something. it's not liquid oxygen but it is filling the premie's lungs with a fluid for it to breath


I'll continue looking for more.
Liquid O2 has a light blue color (sky blue, one might say, even though that has nothing to do with why the sky is blue xd ). And that liquid stuff is pretty spiffy. I wonder if they could get adults to breath it... a la evangelion.


Peppermint Schnapps
i was never taught that in school. in science class in 7th grade we were taught nine (or maybe six? it's one of those numbers that's divisable by three) things that constituted being alive, but i can only remember a couple of them (it wasn't anything about necessities of life, rather what constituted being a living organism). but we all know fetii are alive, so it really has no place in the abortion debate. i'm pretty sure one of them was sentience, though. arrgh, i'm so confused now, i'm going to have to go look it up.
I think you're thinking of "responds to stimuli" which is as close to sentience as you get when it comes to requirements for life.

Keep in mind - every requirement for life must meet both humans and the tiniest amoeba. Being aware, being able to feel, being able to think - none are necessary to be alive.

that's right, my 9th grade science teacher tried to drill the bolded part into our heads but i obviously forgot (he was a bad teacher, that's probably why, i think the only reason he taught was because he was the 8th grade football coach). i took chemistry when i was in high school so i'm not at the top of my game when it comes to biology. i regret it, though, because i hated chemistry.

anywayssss, she probably told us that it was sentience. she was/is a 7th grade teacher, after all. not saying anything bad about 7th grade teachers, but she wasn't the greatest. at all. =/

Peppermint Schnapps


Grip of Death

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:40 pm


I wasn't taught the "5 things", but I did read the Maslow triangle chart of needs on my own during highschool. It's not a bad chart. It actually makes sense. If you're hungry, you're not really as worried about having a high self-esteem until you satisfy those hunger pangs.

On the flip side, the Maslow chart has been criticized. Sure, humans are biological animals but we have a complicated way of life too.

I went to three different highschools. One of my highschools, a city school that was well-funded enough but in a poor neighborhood had a conservative teacher who exalted "abstinence". Another teacher at another school, which was a city school in a traditionally bad neighborhood but had an excellent magnet school program brushed on the subject in a more positive way. She covered a little bit of human interaction. And she had us write a paper on a subject of interest.

It was the same school system, CMS of Charlotte. Different schools in different neighborhoods, and different teachers.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:14 am


Talon-chan
Liquid O2 has a light blue color (sky blue, one might say, even though that has nothing to do with why the sky is blue xd ). And that liquid stuff is pretty spiffy. I wonder if they could get adults to breath it... a la evangelion.


Hmm... If adults were to breathe Liquid O2, I think that the lungs would try to expel it. I seem to be remembering something about liquids irritating the lungs. Also, on another note, I do remember something about the development of a membrane that allows the oxygen particles to be breathed in and separates the water from the oxygen. Think back to the picture of the parakeet in the fish tank watching the fish. xd Just 'cause it looks neat, here is a pic of LOX (liquid O2).

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

The article is here. It even shows a diagram.

Otterish


PhaedraMcSpiffy

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:37 am


Madame L.
Talon-chan

Seriously. This is a horrible list. It's based on absolutely nothing of any validity. It in no way addresses the personhood of the fetus (the baby-ness), and it is not at all convincing because you might as well just made up requirements arbitrarily... there's no justification to those things. Like I said, the list really seems like a 3rd grader's dumbed down version of the necessities of life.


Actually, at my school, we were still being taught this in sixth or seventh, forgot which exactly, grade. I know it's innacurate, but it's what the school teaches. >< It's annoying that they tell us, after telling us the 'five basic needs,' that fetii are babies.



Do they make any mention of evolution?
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