Gay and ChristianIs there a such thing as a gay Christian?

[Eurytus]

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Ugh. Let me give you an analogy. "Ken had sex with his wife Barbie last night." That's no sin, right? Oh, let's add "Barbie didn't consent." Now it's rape! Is THAT sin? Yes.

While women had sex with women and men had sex with men, that was not the reason God gave them up. He gave them up because they gave HIM up, and worshipped idols. While we no not deny that what these people did is bad, we DO deny that what they did has any relation to two men in a loving, committed relationship.

Except that's nothing like what the verses say. In Bibles that aren't watered down to remove or edit certain controversial verses, you'll find things like "and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" and "God gave them up to vile afflictions: for even their women... and so on and so forth."

That doesn't sound to me like anything that is even slightly encouraged. I’m not going so say anything stupid like “and that’s why you shouldn’t be homosexual!” I’m just pointing out something. Even if you were to accept that homosexuality is a sin, I wouldn’t expect you to get out of it that exact moment; in doing so I would make a hypocrite out of myself. I’m saying why I think homosexuality is a sin, why don’t you reply with why you think it isn’t, instead of trying to refute my opinion?

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

I actually have not seen him bring up any points. Could you list these?

Of course. (his points in bold, my additional comments in italics)

The Noble Protoman.exe

Also, another observation. I love how this happens, but... The two people defending homosexuality here are kinda antagonizing the others. he has a good point here; you seem to be constantly sarcastic and hateful. Everyone is entitled to their own perception of fact. Whether it's right or wrong, it's still their choice.

As a question to Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori, how are you so sure that homosexuality is NOT a sin, hmm? You never answered this. "Because God loves me" is not a valid argument that you're not sinning, as I already pointed out. Fact: You can study the Bible forward and backward. Fact: Sin is falling short of. Fact: There is no concrete Biblical proof that you can assign that tells us where we should encourage such lifestyles.

So tell me, what makes things okay? I mean, isn't there that natural tendancy for those who aren't homosexual that it is morally wrong? Well what's that mean? It means, yes, psychiologically people concieve it to be wrong; but with our current culture, to go against what we know is right and wrong is just an everyday thing. But think of it. How is it right?

(I really did want to stay out of this, but man. This is really ticking me off how two guys defending themselves are actually the bullies)

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

And yet, you still accomplish it. He has not made a single backed-up claim that I have not refuted. Does it matter exactly how many people say something? No.

Your refutations are nothing but sarcasm and crap that has no backing whatsoever.

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Really. So, explain Romans 1:1? It is quite clearly Paul who wrote this book, especially as he refers to his fellow worker Timothy in 16:21. And as we've discussed, "homosexual sex" doesn't accurately describe the acts here, which are obviously fueled only by lust. Homosexual sex can also refer to sex in a loving, committed homosexual partnership.

I had my books crossed, my bad.

Whether lust had any part or not, it’s called dishonorable, vile, unnatural, etc, etc. That describes the act itself more than the motivation behind it.

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

neutral Well, people never do notice the verses and biblical arguments I present, no matter how big and red I make my font. Why should I expect you to start now?

Your arguments that appear to be somewhat valid (although they are mostly arguing semantics, something you’ve obviously got a lot of experience doing) are about the topic of the sin of Sodom. However, you have yet to prove anything about the Romans passage except that you’re very good at nitpicking the wording.

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

If you really enjoy being so stupid, take it to the chatterbox and leave people who can actually discuss the topic instead of insults that have no bearing on the discussion out of it.

What exactly makes you think insulting me gains you any ground whatsoever?

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Quote:

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

There is no concrete biblical proof we should use computers. There is no concrete biblical proof that basic psychology works. Concrete biblical proof is not needed to encourage something; it is needed in order to condemn something. And I have never seen concrete biblical proof that homosexuality is sinful.

So I'm to assume you simply skimmed over that little passage in Acts, then?

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

It means we have an inborn instinct to stick to our preferred gender(s)? Many homosexual people think heterosexual relationship are sick. Does that make it true?

And where do you get that statistic from? Not to mention that an actual study has gotten a statistic that more than 50% of people who claim to have had a homosexual attraction also have had a heterosexual attraction. Many think it's sick? No. Some? Maybe. Few? Probably. Also, just because someone practicing a wrong lifestyle thinks it's right doesn't mean it's right. Saying that is like saying that cannibalism isn't wrong because cannibals think other people are stupid, or incest isn't wrong because people in incestual relationships don't think it's wrong. Bad reasoning and bad logic is involved, and it doesn't prove any point beside that you don't have any working points to back up your argument.

I have yet to see a valid study by Paul Cameron, who I'm guessing you're citing.

Also, you're using circular logic. You're saying that Cannibals can't say they're immoral, because obviously they're immoral and can't be trusted not to lie. That's a logical fallacy.

And what exactly makes his studies invalid? Just saying its invalid isn’t good enough.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that being in sin distorts our perception of sin.

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Quote:

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Actually the APA, the leading psychological association in America (the world, even?) has realized that it is neither harmful nor changeable.

To some degree, everyone has a homosexual tendency. It's like sin; our sinful nature can't be changed; we'll always have a tendency to sin, but that doesn't mean we have to act on the impulse just because it's there.

neutral No, everyone doesn't have a "homosexual tendency". If everyone had a homosexual tendency, everyone would have a "heterosexual tendency" as well, and I can say for certain that I don't. End Generalization.

Just because they are miniscule, unnoticeable, or not acted upon, doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

Quote:

Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori

The Jews are at fault for the Holocaust! We wouldn't hate them if they didn't deserve it!

My heart bleeds for you.

Again, hateful, sarcastic crap like this has no place in an intelligent discussion.

I'm not simply being hateful and sarcastic. I'm pointing out the flaws in their logic using analogies.

Yes you are. That “analogy” is neither applicable nor useful. It adds nothing to the discussion; it’s just an inflammatory bit of sarcasm.

And how does “My heart bleeds for you” add ANYTHING to your argument? It’s just being hateful.

As Proto said, he’s talking, discussing, and looking for answers. You, on the other hand, are getting offensive whenever he asks a question. We’re not trying to shove this down your throat, we’re just giving our logical response to the verses and what it looks like to us, and trying to see what your view is. Just because we have different views doesn’t mean we have to fight tooth and nail over something that doesn’t matter.  

[DeanWinchester]

Macinacs for seths

No days, the gay culture is becoming more pervious to our society. Where is Christianity now days is the most often asked question. Well I have got to say that Christianity is alive and well. But is the gay community and Christianity ever going to meet?

Let me tell you, I believe that gays can be christian. I am proof of that. Not only am I a martyr for the Christian cause but I am a proclaimed Homosexual. Why, because thats how God created me. Most reading this will say that I blasphemy. But, I pose this question and Ask for anyone who response to this to please tell me. Where in the bible does it say that homosexuality is a sin? And who says that gays cannot be christian?

One other thing I want to mention. Jesus commanded to love one another. If we are to love one another, then why as christians do we discriminate against others? I love all beings male, female, American, Mexican, Christian, Muslim, gay, or straight. Where is the love that we are suppose to as Christians show?

Um, have you read Romans or Corinthians? Because those are some hardcore verses about God abandoning people to their lusts for the same sex.
But that aside, yes I know a lot of Christian gays. I know practicing homosexuals who are in their church choirs.
But it's still a sin, fine.
But I've never seen a reason to not show God's love just because of that.
I even support the "Day of Silence" at my school, because I'm sick of narrow minded Christians incapable of showing God's love.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

Eurytus

Except that's nothing like what the verses say. In Bibles that aren't watered down to remove or edit certain controversial verses, you'll find things like "and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" and "God gave them up to vile afflictions: for even their women... and so on and so forth."

That doesn't sound to me like anything that is even slightly encouraged. I’m not going so say anything stupid like “and that’s why you shouldn’t be homosexual!” I’m just pointing out something. Even if you were to accept that homosexuality is a sin, I wouldn’t expect you to get out of it that exact moment; in doing so I would make a hypocrite out of myself. I’m saying why I think homosexuality is a sin, why don’t you reply with why you think it isn’t, instead of trying to refute my opinion?

Wait, what?

Your opinion is based on an interpretation of the Bible that doesn't appear to have any validity.

Opinions are not sacred. The Bible is sacred. If your opinion is based on a fault interpretation, then we really ought to be correcting you, right?

The line from Romans 1 clearly indicates that men were having sex with one another and doing sinful things with one another. However, it does not indicate that "men having sex" = "men doing sinful things". There are many sinful sex acts that Romans 1 could be referring to.

Eurytus

Of course. (his points in bold, my additional comments in italics)

The Noble Protoman.exe

Also, another observation. I love how this happens, but... The two people defending homosexuality here are kinda antagonizing the others. he has a good point here; you seem to be constantly sarcastic and hateful. Everyone is entitled to their own perception of fact. Whether it's right or wrong, it's still their choice.

Whether or not people are being antagonistic doesn't make them right or wrong. Many Biblical scholars with years of experience can be jerks. Many nice guys can have completely nonsensical interpretations of the Bible.

And if we're being antagonistic, it's because we're exasperated from trying to explain this to people over and over again. Think about it: Every week dozens of people make a claim that we find offensive and dangerous. And even if we prove them wrong, each week, more people come. Surely you can sympathize with that.

Eurytus

As a question to Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori, how are you so sure that homosexuality is NOT a sin, hmm? You never answered this. "Because God loves me" is not a valid argument that you're not sinning, as I already pointed out. Fact: You can study the Bible forward and backward. Fact: Sin is falling short of. Fact: There is no concrete Biblical proof that you can assign that tells us where we should encourage such lifestyles.

That's a nonsensical question.

Look... let's back up a step so you can see why that question doesn't make any sense. Let's use an analogy.

In this analogy, I say, "I have a million billion dollars." And, in this analogy, you know that I probably don't. If I had a million billion dollars, I probably would be using a better computer, and have a better house, and be married to Halle Berry. So, in this analogy, you say, "No, you don't have a million billion dollars." But then I respond, "Prove that I don't have a million billion dollars!" Which you can't do. Even though I have a crappy computer and a crappy house and a crappy wife, I might still have a hundred billion dollars somewhere.

Now replace "million billion dollars" with "homosexuality being a sin". When you say, "homosexuality is a sin" we say "No it isn't." Then when you say, "Prove that it isn't a sin", what are we supposed to say?

Just because the Bible doesn't say that something isn't a sin doesn't mean that it is a sin. The Bible also doesn't say anything about playing Tic-Tac-Toe, or clipping your toenails, or drawing stick figures.

Eurytus

Your refutations are nothing but sarcasm and crap that has no backing whatsoever.

That's just not true. Sarcasm can (and often is) used to make a point in an elegant fashion.

Eurytus

I had my books crossed, my bad.

Whether lust had any part or not, it’s called dishonorable, vile, unnatural, etc, etc. That describes the act itself more than the motivation behind it.

Nowhere does the Bible describe homosexuality in general as being dishonorable, vile, unnatural or etc. Just because some homosexual acts are vile doesn't mean that they all are. There are also plenty of vile heterosexual acts out there, but the consensus on that issue is pretty clear.

Eurytus

Your arguments that appear to be somewhat valid (although they are mostly arguing semantics, something you’ve obviously got a lot of experience doing) are about the topic of the sin of Sodom. However, you have yet to prove anything about the Romans passage except that you’re very good at nitpicking the wording.

It is not nitpicking. Romans is obviously unclear about the acts being committed.

If anything, I would suggest that when it comes to Romans, you are leaping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.

Eurytus

What exactly makes you think insulting me gains you any ground whatsoever?

I doubt it was done to "gain ground". It was probably done to express frustration when you fail to listen to what we've been saying.

Eurytus

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that being in sin distorts our perception of sin.

Are you not sinful as well?

Eurytus

Yes you are. That “analogy” is neither applicable nor useful. It adds nothing to the discussion; it’s just an inflammatory bit of sarcasm.

Yes, it does add to the discussion. The analogy demonstrates the similarity of logic between your argument and the argument of those who attack the Jews. That's surely a useful comparison to make.

Eurytus

We’re not trying to shove this down your throat, we’re just giving our logical response to the verses and what it looks like to us,

But the Bible simply doesn't support your view.

We think you're saying that the Bible says something that we don't think it actually does say. Isn't it valuable to figure out which one of us is right?  

[Eurytus]

Cyberpunk Hero

Eurytus

Except that's nothing like what the verses say. In Bibles that aren't watered down to remove or edit certain controversial verses, you'll find things like "and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" and "God gave them up to vile afflictions: for even their women... and so on and so forth."

That doesn't sound to me like anything that is even slightly encouraged. I’m not going so say anything stupid like “and that’s why you shouldn’t be homosexual!” I’m just pointing out something. Even if you were to accept that homosexuality is a sin, I wouldn’t expect you to get out of it that exact moment; in doing so I would make a hypocrite out of myself. I’m saying why I think homosexuality is a sin, why don’t you reply with why you think it isn’t, instead of trying to refute my opinion?

Wait, what?

Your opinion is based on an interpretation of the Bible that doesn't appear to have any validity.

Opinions are not sacred. The Bible is sacred. If your opinion is based on a fault interpretation, then we really ought to be correcting you, right?

The line from Romans 1 clearly indicates that men were having sex with one another and doing sinful things with one another. However, it does not indicate that "men having sex" = "men doing sinful things". There are many sinful sex acts that Romans 1 could be referring to.

Eurytus

Of course. (his points in bold, my additional comments in italics)

The Noble Protoman.exe

Also, another observation. I love how this happens, but... The two people defending homosexuality here are kinda antagonizing the others. he has a good point here; you seem to be constantly sarcastic and hateful. Everyone is entitled to their own perception of fact. Whether it's right or wrong, it's still their choice.

Whether or not people are being antagonistic doesn't make them right or wrong. Many Biblical scholars with years of experience can be jerks. Many nice guys can have completely nonsensical interpretations of the Bible.

And if we're being antagonistic, it's because we're exasperated from trying to explain this to people over and over again. Think about it: Every week dozens of people make a claim that we find offensive and dangerous. And even if we prove them wrong, each week, more people come. Surely you can sympathize with that.

Eurytus

As a question to Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori, how are you so sure that homosexuality is NOT a sin, hmm? You never answered this. "Because God loves me" is not a valid argument that you're not sinning, as I already pointed out. Fact: You can study the Bible forward and backward. Fact: Sin is falling short of. Fact: There is no concrete Biblical proof that you can assign that tells us where we should encourage such lifestyles.

That's a nonsensical question.

Look... let's back up a step so you can see why that question doesn't make any sense. Let's use an analogy.

In this analogy, I say, "I have a million billion dollars." And, in this analogy, you know that I probably don't. If I had a million billion dollars, I probably would be using a better computer, and have a better house, and be married to Halle Berry. So, in this analogy, you say, "No, you don't have a million billion dollars." But then I respond, "Prove that I don't have a million billion dollars!" Which you can't do. Even though I have a crappy computer and a crappy house and a crappy wife, I might still have a hundred billion dollars somewhere.

Now replace "million billion dollars" with "homosexuality being a sin". When you say, "homosexuality is a sin" we say "No it isn't." Then when you say, "Prove that it isn't a sin", what are we supposed to say?

Just because the Bible doesn't say that something isn't a sin doesn't mean that it is a sin. The Bible also doesn't say anything about playing Tic-Tac-Toe, or clipping your toenails, or drawing stick figures.

Eurytus

Your refutations are nothing but sarcasm and crap that has no backing whatsoever.

That's just not true. Sarcasm can (and often is) used to make a point in an elegant fashion.

Eurytus

I had my books crossed, my bad.

Whether lust had any part or not, it’s called dishonorable, vile, unnatural, etc, etc. That describes the act itself more than the motivation behind it.

Nowhere does the Bible describe homosexuality in general as being dishonorable, vile, unnatural or etc. Just because some homosexual acts are vile doesn't mean that they all are. There are also plenty of vile heterosexual acts out there, but the consensus on that issue is pretty clear.

Eurytus

Your arguments that appear to be somewhat valid (although they are mostly arguing semantics, something you’ve obviously got a lot of experience doing) are about the topic of the sin of Sodom. However, you have yet to prove anything about the Romans passage except that you’re very good at nitpicking the wording.

It is not nitpicking. Romans is obviously unclear about the acts being committed.

If anything, I would suggest that when it comes to Romans, you are leaping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.

Eurytus

What exactly makes you think insulting me gains you any ground whatsoever?

I doubt it was done to "gain ground". It was probably done to express frustration when you fail to listen to what we've been saying.

Eurytus

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that being in sin distorts our perception of sin.

Are you not sinful as well?

Eurytus

Yes you are. That “analogy” is neither applicable nor useful. It adds nothing to the discussion; it’s just an inflammatory bit of sarcasm.

Yes, it does add to the discussion. The analogy demonstrates the similarity of logic between your argument and the argument of those who attack the Jews. That's surely a useful comparison to make.

Eurytus

We’re not trying to shove this down your throat, we’re just giving our logical response to the verses and what it looks like to us,

But the Bible simply doesn't support your view.

We think you're saying that the Bible says something that we don't think it actually does say. Isn't it valuable to figure out which one of us is right?

Your points all rely on what you think- no, what you want to see in those verses. I'm sorry that you've so deluded yourselves; I don't see any point in trying to convince people who couldn't see even if I pointed it out for them. Good day.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

Eurytus

]Your points all rely on what you think- no, what you want to see in those verses.

That is patently untrue. We have demonstrated the validity of our points, and if you wish to challenge them, you are free to do so.

Thus far, you have completely failed to mount an actual response to our interpretations of Romans 1 and other applicable passages. Do not pretend to hold the intellectual or Biblical high ground.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Honestly, this pissing match is getting a little ridiculous.

Eurytus, in the process of accusing others of being rude, you're getting pretty nasty yourself. Cyberpunk and Mendori, while I'm totally behind what you're saying and I can completely understand your frustration, the vitriolic interjections are uncalled for.

I can understand things getting a little heated in an emotionally-charged debate like this, but this is getting beyond "a little heated."  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

SinfulGuillotine

Honestly, this pissing match is getting a little ridiculous.

Eurytus, in the process of accusing others of being rude, you're getting pretty nasty yourself. Cyberpunk and Mendori, while I'm totally behind what you're saying and I can completely understand your frustration, the vitriolic interjections are uncalled for.

I can understand things getting a little heated in an emotionally-charged debate like this, but this is getting beyond "a little heated."

I did try to scale back in my last post. I figured that it would be worth putting in the effort bring things back to a level where those who aren't necessarily comfortable with heated discussion can still participate.

Then my friendly argument got ignored, and the only response was, "That's just what YOU think." Obviously their problem isn't that we aren't playing nice. Their problem is that people are disagreeing with what they believe.

At this point, vitriolic interjections are entirely called for.  

[Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori]

SinfulGuillotine

Honestly, this pissing match is getting a little ridiculous.

Eurytus, in the process of accusing others of being rude, you're getting pretty nasty yourself. Cyberpunk and Mendori, while I'm totally behind what you're saying and I can completely understand your frustration, the vitriolic interjections are uncalled for.

I can understand things getting a little heated in an emotionally-charged debate like this, but this is getting beyond "a little heated."

I'm just disgusted that after ten pages, we're still refuting the same verses we were refuting at the start. Patience, as you've probably noticed, is one of my worst attributes, and it REALLY pisses me off when people can't be bothered ot read back a couple pages.

I have a legitimate debate in another guild to do. I'm out of this.  

[Tarrou]

Cyberpunk Hero

At this point, vitriolic interjections are entirely called for.

Except that we don't allow them.
If everyone could just take a step back, that'd be wonderful. Much as I love the hard-hitting M&R style, I suppose I still have some responsibility to uphold the guild rules on civility. So, in short, everybody knock it off.

P.S. I'll be moving this thread over to the debate sub-forum in a day or so, since that would be the more appropriate place for it.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

Tangled Up In Blue

Cyberpunk Hero

At this point, vitriolic interjections are entirely called for.

Except that we don't allow them.

Ah, there are some laws higher than that of guild or forum. There are the laws of justice, laws of man, even the laws of God hisself.

No? Alright, fair enough.  

[IcarusDream]

Homosexuals can absolutely be Christian, keep it chaste though...

And yes, ******** yes, Romans 1 condemns homosexual acts of the sexual nature.

But just to be sure we don't have any complications, read v.26-27:

Romans 1:26-27

26 δια τουτο παρεδωκεν αυτους ο θεος εις παθη ατιμιας αι τε γαρ θηλειαι αυτων μετηλλαξαν την φυσικην χρησιν εις την παρα φυσιν

27 ομοιως τε και οι αρρενες αφεντες την φυσικην χρησιν της θηλειας εξεκαυθησαν εν τη ορεξει αυτων εις αλληλους αρσενες εν αρσεσιν την ασχημοσυνην κατεργαζομενοι και την αντιμισθιαν ην εδει της πλανης αυτων εν εαυτοις απολαμβανοντες

and then come back to me.  

[sresol]

All I can really say on this issue is that I believe God loves all His people, and that he cares if you live in a homosexual lifestyle and prefers that you don't live in that type of lifestyle.

Notice how I said "loves all His people" and "PREFERS for you not live that way"  

[Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori]

Tia_Valentine

I feel that gays have been misunderstould for a very long time and that because of this alot of fears have formed around them and this has caused alot of hatred and pain for both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike....but you must understand that all of our problems and suffering come from sin....

Like i have said before in other threads God creates our souls/spirits personally/directly but our bodies are created in the cycle of reproduction that started thousands of years ago with Adam and Eve....

because our human bodies are created on earth in our mothers womb we are corupted by all of the sin that is in our world and this is what causes so much of our suffering

because think of all of the hereditery problems that we can get like autism, cancers, body crippling disorders, diseases, and mental disorders
these are not things that are caused by God they are caused by the sin our world ......our human bodies are weak and fragile and sin can just take hold of our bodies and reek havick without any warning at all

The sexual desires that homosexuals have is one these sin caused effects that occurs during development in the womb.....

but just because homosexuals are born with this attraction doesn't mean that it makes it ok for them to give in to their temptations and have sex with members of the same sex.....
it just means that they will have to over come these desires to have sex with members of the same sex......
just like adulteries have to over come their desires to cheat on their spouse, murders have to overcome their desire to kill, and thieves have to over come their desire to steal.....

Sorry, what? How exactly is the desire to murder, commit adultery, or steal genetic?

What happened to "I knew you in your mother's womb"? If we were born this way, God wanted us this way.

If a child is born autistic, like I was, or born part deaf, like I was, or with above-average intelligence, like I was, it was the will of God.

Why does this suddenly change for sexual abnormalities?  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori

Sorry, what? How exactly is the desire to murder, commit adultery, or steal genetic?

Because it makes for a really kick-arse insanity defense when all the evidence is against you.