The only crack in the Christian faith

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Hittokiri04

Hold doesn't the bible itself say that God's grace is for all that God himself even wishes all to be saved?

Yes, but it doesn't mean that all will be saved. Christ's sacrifice at the cross was sufficient for the whole world, but the whole world will only get what they are ready to accept. It is a gift that can be rejected. God doesn't force anything on anyone because He respects our free will. So then, neither will He put others who have clearly rejected Him in His presence.

There is also another way to put it. These people who turned away from God does not love Him with all their mind, body, and soul. They do not want to be part of Him. However, being in heaven means being part of Him, being part of this greater glory which God shares with us. Only then can we see his full glory and know what he truly is, when we empty ourselves of other desire. Again, these people do not want to empty themselves. God cannot make them. The most horrible thing about hell is not its fire but this complete hopelessness that you cannot be saved and that you are completely separated from God.  

[Metanoeo]

Xaerne Veirylle

It is a gift that can be rejected. God doesn't force anything on anyone because He respects our free will.

This statement rubs a nerve. Did Scripture ever say that are freewill is what brought us to Christ for Salvation? It never did rather its a human assumption.

Ephesians 1:3-12

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Romans 9:8-18

This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

We didn't accept a gift but rather we inherited a gift from God. We have been predestined for adoption as children of God through Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. We did not come to Christ by are own will but we came to Christ because God draws us to Christ. (John 6:44)  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

I was going to ask what you meant...But then I saw your signature. sweatdrop

Okay back to the subject...though we have strayed far from the original one. I have nothing against the belief of an unconditional election, unless it leads to the belief of double-predestination. However, I also believe that we do accept and reject this gift of salvation. If we accept it, it's through God's grace or fear of Him which leads to God's grace. If someone was to reject it, then it is because of not listening to God or ignorance. I do agree that if we receive salvation, it is not because of us, but because of God. We cannot have an idea of this supernatural love until we have God's grace as we are born of a fallen nature since the fall of Adam. We simply act upon the grace God gives us. Then after receiving that grace can we only act because of supernatural love.  

[Battousai Akuma]

Xaerne Veirylle

Hittokiri04

Hold doesn't the bible itself say that God's grace is for all that God himself even wishes all to be saved?

Yes, but it doesn't mean that all will be saved. Christ's sacrifice at the cross was sufficient for the whole world, but the whole world will only get what they are ready to accept. It is a gift that can be rejected. God doesn't force anything on anyone because He respects our free will. So then, neither will He put others who have clearly rejected Him in His presence.

There is also another way to put it. These people who turned away from God does not love Him with all their mind, body, and soul. They do not want to be part of Him. However, being in heaven means being part of Him, being part of this greater glory which God shares with us. Only then can we see his full glory and know what he truly is, when we empty ourselves of other desire. Again, these people do not want to empty themselves. God cannot make them. The most horrible thing about hell is not its fire but this complete hopelessness that you cannot be saved and that you are completely separated from God.

Ah I agree with ya here. So in your explanation are you implying that Baptism is what saves us from damnation? Oh and very well said on your last stattement! biggrin  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Why, thank you. I do think that baptism is necessary for salvation. I really only mentioned it because it is many people's first sanctifying grace. Technically, we still have the stain of original sin and only sanctifying grace can bring us from that fallen nature into a friendship with God, meaning the Holy Spirit being withing us. Some Christians receive this sacrament when they are young. By receiving it, they have the Holy Spirit within them. However, non-Christians don't get this cleansing from original sin. However, it is necessary for salvation for a person to be reborn through the Spirit. Therefore, there is baptism by blood and desire. It simply means that a person that is not Christian may receive the Holy Spirit by martyrdom or by desiring that they be baptized, if they knew the truth. We have to have the Holy Spirit within us, to be in friendship with God, and to not be in a state of spiritual death, to get to heaven. It is by this baptism that those that are non-Christian can get to heaven. Of course, that particular non-Christian must love with God with all their mind, heart, and soul, or if atheist, do good for the sake of goodness (God is goodness, so technically, even if they don't know it, if people do good simply because it is good, they are doing it for the sake of the absolute good, God.)

Not only that, but for us to accept the other graces God has offered for us. By that I mean, first we must have faith. We must believe in all that God has revealed to us, even at times when it doesn't seem too convenient for us. Then we must act on the faith. "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:26). Of course, that is the short version because there are different circumstances for different people.  

[Metanoeo]

Xaerne Veirylle

I was going to ask what you meant...But then I saw your signature. sweatdrop

Okay back to the subject...though we have strayed far from the original one. I have nothing against the belief of an unconditional election, unless it leads to the belief of double-predestination. However, I also believe that we do accept and reject this gift of salvation. If we accept it, it's through God's grace or fear of Him which leads to God's grace. If someone was to reject it, then it is because of not listening to God or ignorance. I do agree that if we receive salvation, it is not because of us, but because of God. We cannot have an idea of this supernatural love until we have God's grace as we are born of a fallen nature since the fall of Adam. We simply act upon the grace God gives us. Then after receiving that grace can we only act because of supernatural love.

Explain to me, what the terms unconditional election and double-predestination mean.  

[promised_child]

Romans 10:9-10

The Message (MSG)


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4-10The earlier revelation was intended simply to get us ready for the Messiah, who then puts everything right for those who trust him to do it. Moses wrote that anyone who insists on using the law code to live right before God soon discovers it's not so easy—every detail of life regulated by fine print! But trusting God to shape the right living in us is a different story— no precarious climb up to heaven to recruit the Messiah, no dangerous descent into hell to rescue the Messiah. So what exactly was Moses saying?

The word that saves is right here,
as near as the tongue in your mouth,
as close as the heart in your chest.
It's the word of faith that welcomes God to go to work and set things right for us. This is the core of our preaching. Say the welcoming word to God—"Jesus is my Master"—embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead. That's it. You're not "doing" anything; you're simply calling out to God, trusting him to do it for you. That's salvation. With your whole being you embrace God setting things right, and then you say it, right out loud: "God has set everything right between him and me!"





The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



New American Standard Bible (NASB)


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9that (A)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (B)believe in your heart that (C)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Cross references:

Romans 10:9 : Matt 10:32; Luke 12:8; Rom 14:9; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11
Romans 10:9 : Acts 16:31; Rom 4:24
Romans 10:9 : Acts 2:24




New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation



New International Version (NIV)


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9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.





New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



King James Version (KJV)


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9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.





King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



English Standard Version (ESV)


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9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


http://www.biblegateway.com/  

[sunshinehearttrob]

yes Jesus did indeed raise from the dead. otherwise christianity as a religion would not exist period. it would be just like every other religion with their dead gods that never proved to be still alive. in all the world, ours is the only God that has indeed rise from the death, therefore proving all he has done and proclaim on earth true. there is life after death, there is a heaven, and yes Jesus actually exist and is the Son of God. the end.  

[pnai_pride777]

if you said jesus did not rose from the dead... then doesnt that mean you are denying the bible? after all the bible is our truth based on God's words