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 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:34 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:07 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:56 pm
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Y'know, it sounds to me like you don't so much want to be athiest/agnostic. I could be wrong- maybe I'm simply mistaking the absence of Christian-baiting, which is a refreshing change. *grin*
How do I believe in God without empirical proof?
Well, the truth is, I'm not one of those people that was gifted with great faith. I'm very scientific-minded, always have been. However, I'm also very observant, and not particularly close-minded. I grew up in a non-religious household, and so didn't have any preconceived ideas about what the world should look like.
OK, so I was totally against Christianity. This was because most of the Christians I had met seemed like ignorant, hypocritical jerks. - I still think that most of the Christians I meet are ignorant, hypocritical jerks, but that's besides the point. I had a king james NT bible at home (still not sure where it came from, been around as long as I can remember), one of those little ones that people used to hand out to try to convert people. One year I started becoming friends with a Christian girl who I felt comfortable talking about religion with, so I thought I'd start a discussion about her own religion with her. I stuggled though a few chapters of king james english (one of the worst experiences of my entire life, btw. The KJ bible and I don't get along well), and wrote down a few verses that I found interesting. A few that I agreed with, a few that I thought were completely idiotic, and a few that made no sense no matter how many times I read them. I brought the quotes to my friend, and started to talk with her. She couldn't really answer my questions, but she did promise to give me a New Living translation (much easier to read btw).
It was the strangest thing. I walked away from her wishing I had the book in my hand that moment, and having no idea why. I had no interest in Christianity except for an academic one; after a bad experience with paganism I had no interest in dieties of any kind. And yet, I felt this burning, aching feeling for wanting to read the book. I had to wait four days to get it, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. When I finally saw my friend again, I started reading it almost as soon as she handed it to me.
I started at the beginning and read it all the way through.
It was an interesting experience. I guess you could say that that was my first encounter with God; I could feel His presence around me when I started reading. I had this overwhelming desire to get closer to this being I felt, and yet I was scared. I didn't *want* to be Christian. I knew that Christianity had a lot of rules; I'd have to give up a lot of things I really cared about. I didn't want to be classed with all the idiots and hypocrites I had met over the years.
And yet, I did not want to lose this being whose presence I could feel. I did not. I started crying when I realized that I *was* going to be Christian, that I *was* going to give up all those things that I liked so much. Because there was no way I could live with myself and turn my back on this being I had met. What was the feeling? What was this thing that made me unable to turn away?
Love.
There was no question of believing or not believing. The feeling I felt was as real as if I was seeing it with my own eyes, or feeling it with my own hands. If I were to question it, I'd have to question my own sanity first, and wonder if it was all some massive hallucination. Well- if I am crazy, there's nothing I can do about it. But, somehow, I don't think I am.
So, there's my answer to you. Any questions, anything not clear, feel free to ask me questions, or PM me. You seem like a polite enough person xd
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:24 pm
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Yami_Ichi Good day.
I am a current atheist and I am just here to have a discussion.
I just have a few questions, and this seems like a place where I can be respected like I respect others.
How can you fully believe in the existance of a God that you cannot see and have no solid proof of?
That is my one question.
I was a Christian at one time, but changed to an atheist. I am slightly agnostic, as well. Here is how I respond to such things as this:
People use the bible as a solid foundation for everything. How do you know that the bible is 100% true. For all anyone really knows, the bible could be a made up book that someone wrote at one time.
People also use things that have happened in their life as another solid. I have seen that when you believe something, your subconcious takes over and causes you to use God as a way to explain what you cannot with simple logic. You use God as a place holder for something you cannot explain.
I just want to hear what you all have to say. I am not here to bash you in any way, and I want to apologize if anything I have said or will say is going to offend any of you, that is not my intention at all in here.
If you feel the need to PM me, please feel free to do so. I am looking for a decent conversation, and if you need to do that in a PM, so be it.
Well, to answer your first question, Yami_Ichi, we are able to fully believe in a God that we cannot see because Christianity is a religion of faith. Seeing with your heart and not with your eyes. And the only true proof of God's existence is the Bible and Jesus Christ. Which leads to your next question...
We know the Bible is 100% true because it is a text that was spiritually inspired and written with the divine help of the Holy Spirit as a guide for getting the words down on paper. I believe the only un-inspired parts of the Bible that were instead based off of God's teachings are the letters written by Paul and other apostles later on in the New Testament. Everything else was written by people who were spiritually inspired with the Holy Spirit as a guide.
And if I'm understanding you correctly, when you say we use God as a "placeholder" for "things we cannot explain", I assume you mean events such as miracles. Things like that, besides other such things as the creation of the universe, opinions on evolution, etc., are really the only thing people these days have a hard time explaining. We know there's gravity which keeps us grounded to the planet. We know the use of kinetics and whatnot in everyday life, unless you have something else in mind. If you do, please tell me and I and any other person who'd like to would love to give our opinion. But all I know is that the Bible is an inspired text given to us by the Holy Spirit as a sort of explaination of our early history of this planet up past the birth and death of Jesus, a guide-line to the way we should behave as Christians in society, and that faith is a very important key element to keeping your trust in God. If you have any quetions or comments, Yami_Ichi please post them and I'm sure everyone would be happy to give some helpful opinions to you. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:39 am
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CCubed Jesus must never have come then. He gives us enough proof. remember "...denies him who sent me." or "I was sent by the god of Isaac..."
Perhaps you didn't realize there was a link in the post? Let me post what the link led to.
Quote: Hebrews 11:1-4 (New International Version) 1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
It is difficult to understand, but the fact remains that God does *not* provide empirical proof that he exists.
We could not, for example, repeat the miracle of Jesus' birth. (Modern science won't do it, a male baby will always need a father.)
Though miracles happen, you cannot replicate them. This means that God can never be scientifically prooven; no matter how much 'proof' you see, there is still a certain amount of faith involved in accepting the idea. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:31 pm
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that_fairy CCubed Jesus must never have come then. He gives us enough proof. remember "...denies him who sent me." or "I was sent by the god of Isaac..." Perhaps you didn't realize there was a link in the post? Let me post what the link led to. Quote: Hebrews 11:1-4 (New International Version) 1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. It is difficult to understand, but the fact remains that God does *not* provide empirical proof that he exists. We could not, for example, repeat the miracle of Jesus' birth. (Modern science won't do it, a male baby will always need a father.) Though miracles happen, you cannot replicate them. This means that God can never be scientifically prooven; no matter how much 'proof' you see, there is still a certain amount of faith involved in accepting the idea.
You misunderstand. I am not saying that we need no faith, I am simply saying that there is proof as well. Faith is always needed. For example, we have proof air exists, however, we still only have faith that it's there. We really can't pick up air and show it to everyone. See what i mean? Proof doesn't make Faith irrelevant, it strengthens faith. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:51 pm
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I dont know how relavent this may be but i was intregued by the use of science and the bible. As it is today science cant prove much, ironically we dont know for sure what the core of the earth looks like, its a really really educated guess. I know this cause almost every piece of evidence brought up in schools about it does with sound waves and what the volcano spits out, and ironically by meteors. Go figure that out, that was in a college text book. Any how, science is based on assumption preceding forever. I guess the best way to explain that is to start from what we have and work backwards (this gets kinda long if you get lost feel free to skip...) what makes up computers the biggest thing in this era.. well mostly electricity and wires, and silicon. and other odds and ends. Then this breaks into to catagorys waht is electricity and what are the elements and or compounds that make up the computer IE silicon, copper, so on and so forth. well electricity is the passing of electrons through the wire thats all it is electrons. (see the similar electricity electrons....) and compounds and elements are found to be atoms. which are everywhere. and atoms are protons electrons and neutrons. then compare that to the universe AS FAR AS MY UNDERSTANDING everything is made up of atoms. so the question is where did atoms come from? In essence the best answer i have is in gensis 1:1 where God says let there be light. Big bang theory? i dunno, but for sure i know this we cant make or destroy atoms, we can manipulate them but not create new protons neutrons or electrons, and this is where the stumbuling begins in the scientists perspective how can there be something from where there was absolutly nothing......
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:43 pm
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Yami_Ichi Good day.
I am a current atheist and I am just here to have a discussion.
I just have a few questions, and this seems like a place where I can be respected like I respect others.
How can you fully believe in the existance of a God that you cannot see and have no solid proof of?
That is my one question.
I was a Christian at one time, but changed to an atheist. I am slightly agnostic, as well. Here is how I respond to such things as this:
People use the bible as a solid foundation for everything. How do you know that the bible is 100% true. For all anyone really knows, the bible could be a made up book that someone wrote at one time.
People also use things that have happened in their life as another solid. I have seen that when you believe something, your subconcious takes over and causes you to use God as a way to explain what you cannot with simple logic. You use God as a place holder for something you cannot explain.
I just want to hear what you all have to say. I am not here to bash you in any way, and I want to apologize if anything I have said or will say is going to offend any of you, that is not my intention at all in here.
If you feel the need to PM me, please feel free to do so. I am looking for a decent conversation, and if you need to do that in a PM, so be it.
First off I just want to say thanks for your consideration and open-mindedness before beginning this discussion biggrin
The reason I believe in God are based on a few, solid things. But first I just have to say that sometimes I think the same thing: "How can we base a few situations of truth off of the Bible, when we don't know if something in one of the books was made up by the author?" Before I explain how I overcome this thought, I will explain to you the first three things that make my belief strong.
One: The creation of the world. Sometimes when I doubt, I think of things above this world. Things that I don't normally think of in the normal day time. I then think of the beginning of the world. To me, even when I do doubt God at times, evolution still does not make sense. Creation is so much more logical to me. One of my confirmation teachers explained evolution in a very interesting way when we asked what evolution was. She asked, "Do you think that it is possible to throw in a bunch of car parts into a lake and come back to it a few days or years later and pull out a car that is completely functional?" And to me this is how evolution works in my eye; I don't see how it is possible for something to suddenly pop out of nothing and create the complexity of a flower, the beauty of a mountain, the wonderous cunning wild animals. And then even then I don't stop, I ask myself, if something DID pop out and make something, what MADE that "something" happen?
Two: A solid feeling. I know, to an atheist this is probably typical Christian-talk. But either way, it is still another reason why I believe. Again, even when I doubt, I can still look within myself and feel Him. I can hear His soft voice trying to speak to me. Sometimes the human mind cannot hear such things because of the voices of the world speaking in all directions. And even when I do doubt, I just feel...empty. It is only when I repent, ask forgiveness sincerely and come back when I feel complete and confident; safe even. Its just something you must feel in order to understand, and I believe everyone is able to hear God if they just forget the physical for a moment and try to hear what we cannot hear with our 5 senses.
Three: Personal experience. Now, again, perhaps more Christian-talk? But no, please listen to me. My mom once dated this very unfriendly guy, and almost every night I would be in my room crying and wishing he would go away. He abused us with his words, and they stung more than a fist. One night I could not take it anymore, I broke down in prayer while crying and I just prayed and prayed and explained to God how I was unable to live the rest of my highschool career with him around. The next night he walked out. I'm not making this up. It is a true account. This isn't the only personal experience, however. When me and my friend went to a revival, there were those who stood in a circle and they would pray and talk to God until the person in the middle would be "slain by the Spirit" it is called and they fall down to the ground and shake, blinded by the Spirit of Christ. Again, it is not something you can just hear others talk about--it is something you must see for yourself to believe and understand. But it doesn't mean its not true. Because it is.
Now for my reasoning of why I know the Bible is a reliable source.
Four: Jesus Christ was a real man. I think some people consider Christ a mythological man, someone that scribes made up. There is archoelogical (spelling? lol) evidence. Not only was he a real man, he really did "strange things" as historical accounts write. I then think, He was real, he preformed miracles, he said He was from God: why should I not believe that?? Because I also take into consideration that He wasn't a proud man who sat on a throne, did miracles, and pretended to be modest that He was from God. He had prophets that wrote down the account of Him. They didn't know exactly what they were writing about however, because they wrote of things that were abnormal; angels, miracles....but they needed to write about it. The Bible is not a book of myth, it is a historical document which I think has become more of a Christian way of history to those who do not believe simply because it is the Christians who read it and believe it. But I think it is important to know that the Bible IS a history book; based on true facts. It is only up to the individual to believe the account of John, Luke, Mark, etc.
I can see how some unbelievers view Christianity as a group of individuals who made up a god to cover up the unexplainable. But, I really dislike being labeled as that, because that isn't the sole reason of my faith. The sole reason is that I feel God and I know through history, personal experiences, and faith that He is real. It may sound so crazy to someone who doesn't believe. I don't think there is a way that we CAN state it and not make it sound crazy. But, I can't help that.
I hope I explained this alright. I'm sure I didn't cover everything, or that I didn't cover something efficient enough, but I tried cool But, those are all the reasons I believe mrgreen |
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:31 pm
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CCubed that_fairy CCubed Jesus must never have come then. He gives us enough proof. remember "...denies him who sent me." or "I was sent by the god of Isaac..." Perhaps you didn't realize there was a link in the post? Let me post what the link led to. Quote: Hebrews 11:1-4 (New International Version) 1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. It is difficult to understand, but the fact remains that God does *not* provide empirical proof that he exists. We could not, for example, repeat the miracle of Jesus' birth. (Modern science won't do it, a male baby will always need a father.) Though miracles happen, you cannot replicate them. This means that God can never be scientifically prooven; no matter how much 'proof' you see, there is still a certain amount of faith involved in accepting the idea. You misunderstand. I am not saying that we need no faith, I am simply saying that there is proof as well. Faith is always needed. For example, we have proof air exists, however, we still only have faith that it's there. We really can't pick up air and show it to everyone. See what i mean? Proof doesn't make Faith irrelevant, it strengthens faith.
Should we be moving this to its own thread? |
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:26 am
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:05 pm
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:39 pm
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The Bible is not only made from people, but it is the mind of God.
And by the way, when someone says "People have their own beliefs", everytime they say that they're making themself doubt more and more about God. People also rely on science too much. We THINK we know, but remember: Humans figure out science, and humans are NOT perfect. Humans make mistakes. Science may be completely wrong.
Oh, and there IS proven facts. I'm no master at history, there's some that have to do with geography but i forgot what it was. But God has givin us proof. I believe one of the huge floods was recorded in various different places as well.
Take foreshadowing for example. Life is like a step-by-step process. You can tell what's going to happen, which is messages from God.
If God helped us EVERYTIME we needed Him, we would never make mistakes or fail. But He is ALWAYS here, watching you. Whenever we fall, God wants to see if we trust in Him. It's not so we can fall and give up, you need to have hope and look foward.
Focus on the present and future. HUMANS WALK.
When you walk, you walk forward, not backwards. The eyes are on the FRONT Of your body.
So it's IMPOSSIBLE to look back. You arn't supposed to walk backwards.
You don't know where you're going. When you stand, you think about where you are. That's the present.
When you walk forward, that's the future. You can't look backwards when you walk! YOUR EYES ARE ON THE FRONT...NOT THE BACK. We are sinners, and God doesn't want us to look at our past and mourn over it. He has forgivin us and we live everyday by grace. It's important to LIVE.
And another thing. WE ARE NOT AN ACCIDENT. We arn't here because we were somehow created outa thin air! Why can we see, touch, smell, and have feelings? Was it such a coinsidence that a man has a p***s and a woman has a v****a, and they fit together and create new humans? God wanted childen, so he made us. And he wants us to have sex and fill the world. (Which is also why he made sex feel good so we would do it over and over.)
We arn't a mistake. Our body is filled with organs that work together in such a way that it makes our whole body function. And we have feelings.
But really, God wants to see if we trust in Him. Life is a test, and well, all of us here in this guild can tell you about God, but it's YOUR CHOICE ALONE. Either way, you are going to die, but you have the chioce to believe and accept Jesus and reach ETERNAL salvation, or don't believe in Him and have ETERNAL damnation. It's your choice, and you make the decision.
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:32 am
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ryoushinn The Bible is not only made from people, but it is the mind of God. And by the way, when someone says "People have their own beliefs", everytime they say that they're making themself doubt more and more about God. People also rely on science too much. We THINK we know, but remember: Humans figure out science, and humans are NOT perfect. Humans make mistakes. Science may be completely wrong. Oh, and there IS proven facts. I'm no master at history, there's some that have to do with geography but i forgot what it was. But God has givin us proof. I believe one of the huge floods was recorded in various different places as well. Take foreshadowing for example. Life is like a step-by-step process. You can tell what's going to happen, which is messages from God. If God helped us EVERYTIME we needed Him, we would never make mistakes or fail. But He is ALWAYS here, watching you. Whenever we fall, God wants to see if we trust in Him. It's not so we can fall and give up, you need to have hope and look foward.
Yup 3nodding
Quote: Focus on the present and future. HUMANS WALK. When you walk, you walk forward, not backwards. The eyes are on the FRONT Of your body. So it's IMPOSSIBLE to look back. You arn't supposed to walk backwards. You don't know where you're going. When you stand, you think about where you are. That's the present. When you walk forward, that's the future. You can't look backwards when you walk! YOUR EYES ARE ON THE FRONT...NOT THE BACK. We are sinners, and God doesn't want us to look at our past and mourn over it. He has forgivin us and we live everyday by grace. It's important to LIVE.
Quote: And another thing. WE ARE NOT AN ACCIDENT. We arn't here because we were somehow created outa thin air! Why can we see, touch, smell, and have feelings? Was it such a coinsidence that a man has a p***s and a woman has a v****a, and they fit together and create new humans? God wanted childen, so he made us. And he wants us to have sex and fill the world. (Which is also why he made sex feel good so we would do it over and over.) We arn't a mistake. Our body is filled with organs that work together in such a way that it makes our whole body function. And we have feelings. But really, God wants to see if we trust in Him. Life is a test, and well, all of us here in this guild can tell you about God, but it's YOUR CHOICE ALONE. Either way, you are going to die, but you have the chioce to believe and accept Jesus and reach ETERNAL salvation, or don't believe in Him and have ETERNAL damnation. It's your choice, and you make the decision.
3nodding agree |
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:59 pm
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Our modern definition of proof has become somewhat blurred. There's 2 definitions, one is scientific, empirical proof, expecting science to prove God is like expecting a metal detector to prove that the sky is blue. It's a completely wrong tool. the second is a logical, step-by-step progression of arguments combined with historical and present events. THAT proof we have, I don't believe God will EVER do something that is totally, unquestionably, God's doing. you will ALWAYS be able to question and doubt the things he does in his life. Even if someone came and healed your broken leg before your very eyes, you'd still be able to avoid the issue and make excuses, etc... God gave us free will, if he did something that forged us to say it was Him, it would defeat the purpose.
I can tell you I've seen rain stopped in only a very specific are, and thunder muted because of the frightened cries of a child. I've seen hearts healed and lives changed. I've walked with him through the valley of death and feared no evil, I've seen him protect me from things that should have killed me. I've said again and again that He lives, to be consumed by what felt like fire. Just last week I was sick and for an hour while I spoke I was well once more. I've spoken words I'd never otherwise have said or thought to say and reached the heart of a human being, I've turned around and hugged someone when I didn't know why and healed their hearts. I've seen the mountains rise above me, driven through them, I've looked at a leaf, I've seen my hand, I've been in a Biology class and I know how much science really Doesn't know. And. Yet. STILL every day is a choice.
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