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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:31 am
I've been thinking about this, and wondering, so i would like to know what others believe.
When you become a Buddha, you have realised your "fundamental Buddha nature", correct?
If it's your fundamental nature, that, to me, says that it is also our original nature.
If no-one was orignally trapped in Samsara, then, how did we come to be trapped?
Once again, it is possible to link Buddhism to other religions using this question (i.e. the fundamental universal conciousness is God, and our being trapped in Samsara is the creation of the physical universe)
What do you all believe about how we came to be in Samsara?
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:47 am
Maybe it isn't our original nature, but if it is then I would presume that it was partly due to human ignorance that we became trapped in the samsara maybe as a punishment or to serve as a filter between the ignorant and the wise.
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:13 am
There's a story from back in the Sutras - though I can't remember where offhand - about this. My husband used to tell it to me. This is how it goes:
In the beginning, all beings were in another state. Energy, unisexual. Happy. Something along those lines, and nothing like the state we're in now. Somewhere along the timeline, some of those energy beings looked around and decided the physical world (our realm, which was at the time unpopulated) was a good place to have a look at. So they came down, and touched it. And they liked it. Soon their nature changed, and they became stuck in this world, loving the sensations they couldn't feel before. They took on physical beings in order to interact with this lush new environment, and became stuck that way.
The ones who were still above made a similar mistake - they looked down on the ones who were now here, in the physical, calling them foolish for having left. This attitude eventually brought them down to the level of their derided people, and here we are - physical beings trapped in a cycle of longing until we figure things out and leave.
I'm not sure if that helps much, but that's the story as I was told it. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:47 pm
That's an intresting story, and once again you can draw parallels towards Christianity (the story of the fall)
I can't help but wonder where the physical realm came from, though.
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:09 pm
Important point to understand in relation to Buddhist is that it is a non-transcendental religion. In fact, even calling it a religion in its pure form isn't entirely accurate. It's closer to a self-help program to get you from one state of being to the other, a raft to get from one bank of the river to the other. (Hence the titles Mahayana, Hinayana, Vajrayana. “Greater, Lesser, and Diamond Vehicle)
An example:
Say you're out in the woods and you've been hit with an arrow.
After realizing this, you can immediately think about issues such as, "Who shot the arrow? Why would the person shoot this arrow at me? What is the arrow made out of?"
First things first, though...remove the arrow and treat the wound.
Students of the Buddha always asked him about God or Gods, the nature of the world and its origins and what have you.
Buddha remained quiet, but when pressed said, "Such questions do not lead to edification."
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:44 pm
To answer your question... it was more like a cosmic hiccup. The "energies" of the universe panicked for a second (as in, started to feel, like Byaggha was saying) and poof, existence. There is a good dissertation from Buddhanet here if you have the time to read it. It's from their Basic Buddhism Guide. Very good reading on non-denominational stuff. PS: Harry, again, amazing stuff.
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Akanishi Makoto Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:28 am
Very nice metahpor.
Here's my justification for my questions:
If wondering about such things does not stop me from being able to pull out the arrow, then there is no harm in considering those questions while also dealing with the most important thing. As long as the arrow remains the primary concern, then it is fine.
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:44 am
Zoutout Very nice metahpor. Here's my justification for my questions: If wondering about such things does not stop me from being able to pull out the arrow, then there is no harm in considering those questions while also dealing with the most important thing. As long as the arrow remains the primary concern, then it is fine. Exactly, however, your first, and only real concern, should be to pull the arrow out.
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Akanishi Makoto Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:59 am
It is still useful to look for the answers to the other questions, so you can avoid being shot a second time. The primary concern is removing the arrow, but secondary and parallel concerns are avoiding getting hit by another.
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:00 pm
Zoutout It is still useful to look for the answers to the other questions, so you can avoid being shot a second time. The primary concern is removing the arrow, but secondary and parallel concerns are avoiding getting hit by another. Hold on, you need to understand what the arrow represents in the metaphor. The arrow is the the cause of your suffering in life. It's the thirst for desire and aversion. It's the Second Noble Truth. When you pull that arrow out, you don't suffer anymore and this is the state of enlightenment. To say there's a second arrow coming is to say there's a second source of suffering beyond the twin poles of the physical world: desire and aversion. Now, you can say that, but you'll be hard-pressed to find evidence of it in the world without appealing to a transcendental cosmography. There is no evidence of suffering beyond the suffering we experience in this world. Buddhism doesn't fall back on that because its job is to bring peace to humans in this world, not promise a reward in Heaven and retribution in Hell. So they'd disagree with you in the usefulness of looking for those answers until you've already achieved enlightenment. Until then, they can be anything from a hobby to a daliance.
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Akanishi Makoto Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:46 pm
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:10 am
I understood what the arrow represented perfectly.
My point was that I don't want to become enlightened only to make a mistake and get stuck in Samsara again for the same reason as before.
Okay, they can be a hobby. If it's acceptable to ask such questions as a hobby, why say ignore them and concentrate on acheiving enlightenment?
[edit] I can't help being curious about such questions - I'm even Philosophy at university, where I have to think about such questions.
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:26 am
Zoutout I understood what the arrow represented perfectly. My point was that I don't want to become enlightened only to make a mistake and get stuck in Samsara again for the same reason as before. Okay, they can be a hobby. If it's acceptable to ask such questions as a hobby, why say ignore them and concentrate on acheiving enlightenment? [edit] I can't help being curious about such questions - I'm even Philosophy at university, where I have to think about such questions. It's not about ignoring them, it's about whether or not they're important in Buddhism. The aim of Buddhism has to do with achieving nirvana, not whether or not there's a divine plan or a God or a Devil or whatever else you can wonder. If a hobby doesn't block you from moving towards enlightenment, fine. If it does, it's a detriment to yourself as a Buddhist. Because if you ask a Buddhist, enlightenment's the proverbial brass ring. It's the mission statement, not just for Buddhists but for all living creatures. i.e. everyone's a Buddhist whether they know it or not. That's why the precepts can be undermined by liberative technique. Because Buddhism itself and the teachings within it are merely tools that serve enlightenmnet. In other words when and after you achieve enlightenment you're no longer a Buddhist. As to your concern about post-enlightenment-samsara-re-entanglement. Not only is it not an issue for Buddhism, it's also not logically possible. Enlightenment = Neither Desire nor Aversion affects you. Think about it.
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:47 am
Quote: Not only is it not an issue for Buddhism, it's also not logically possible. Enlightenment = Neither Desire nor Aversion affects you. Think about it. Then, if that's the case, we must have always been trapped in Samsara, without a beginning as such.
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:30 am
Zoutout Quote: Not only is it not an issue for Buddhism, it's also not logically possible. Enlightenment = Neither Desire nor Aversion affects you. Think about it. Then, if that's the case, we must have always been trapped in Samsara, without a beginning as such. 3nodding To quote Alan Watts, "Buddhism is Hinduism stripped for export" They don't have a linear timeline in their cosmography, but a cyclical one.
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