Raw diet, maybe?

[Akari_32]

We are having a heck of a time finding Bentley a food that doesn't bother him. He's allergeic to chicken and grains, by my best guess. He's no much of a fan of fish based foods, plus it makes his breath smell nasty, and anything else is few and far between here.

He LOVED Innova Prime Red Meat, but since their non-recipe-changing deal finally switched over (last June, was it?), and the recall hit in a matter of months, I'm reluctant to put him back on it, however, it's starting to come back on the shelves more and more. I was so proud of them not to have any recalls, then they sold out, and BAM! Huge recall.... Anyways, he did really well on it, however there was still something in it that bothered him just a little bit.

We've also tried TOTW, and A few of the Wellness flavors, both Core and Simple. He did ok on the TOTW, but he didn't like much. Tried the fish and bison ones. For Wellness, he's had Simple Lamb and Oatmeal (to test the grain allergy theory), Core Original (to test chicken allergy), and Core Ocean Fish (did ok-ish, but was too rich and he doesn't really like fish). He's also had Innova Puppy, Herring, and one other besides the Prime, but i can't remember

Basically, the next step, without breaking my wallet going crazy through different dry foods I don't have coupons for (poor college student right here!), would be raw. He only weighs 8 pounds, and eats a cup or less a day, so it wouldn't be too bad on price, really. I'm not going to pay $20+ for a 4 pound bag of food that will make him scratch himself raw or poop or puke all over the place, especially when so many allergy bearing dogs have been switched to raw and do so great on them. It's not far for his little tummy and skin.

I was also toying with the idea, to keep costs down a little more, that maybe his allergy to chicken is actually only to cooked chicken? That seems like a pretty common thing... And I would also like to try and keep veggies in his diet. He loves them, and organs aren't really anything any of the stores carry around here, which is where he'd be getting what the veggies give him, correct?

SO! Basics, recommendations, schedule, and so on. I have a very limited basic understanding of how this diet works, but I would love it all explained in your different ways, and in a setting where I can ask questions as its explained. Thanks bunches!  

[~ Aki - Fairy ~]

I'd get in contact with butchers (at the stores or actual butcher shops), especially for harder-to-find things like organs; if you know any hunters, talk to them about scraps/organs as well. I'm not sure what pet stores carry for raw products, or how price would compare to the grocery.

I'm not sure that veggies would be a suitable replacement for organs, but it's also not something I've researched

There used to be a thread in the pets forum called Raw Feeding - I'd imagine you can search for/read through it, but probably not post in it anymore (last time I tried to post in a thread that hadn't had any new posts for like six+ months it wouldn't let me).
You could also send Eripuppy (I think is her username right now) a message - she has a similar-sized dog that's on a raw diet.  

[Akari_32]

~ Aki - Fairy ~

I'd get in contact with butchers (at the stores or actual butcher shops), especially for harder-to-find things like organs; if you know any hunters, talk to them about scraps/organs as well. I'm not sure what pet stores carry for raw products, or how price would compare to the grocery.

I'm not sure that veggies would be a suitable replacement for organs, but it's also not something I've researched

There used to be a thread in the pets forum called Raw Feeding - I'd imagine you can search for/read through it, but probably not post in it anymore (last time I tried to post in a thread that hadn't had any new posts for like six+ months it wouldn't let me).
You could also send Eripuppy (I think is her username right now) a message - she has a similar-sized dog that's on a raw diet.

There are a few local meat markets, and even the grocery store I work in might be able to do something for me. With out ordering something from any of them, basically all I would have available is tripe, chicken livers, and whatever comes in the whole roaster chickens. But again, chicken allergy... I do want to try him on raw chicken if we do end up doing this though, and see how that works out. Whole roasters are only about 5-8 bucks, and they are a good size for a small dog, and could last about a week.

We also have a local restaurant that can give us lamb bones and such (they used to give them to us by the 5 gallon bucket full when we had 4 very large dogs that liked to chew). And, I like to buy butcher bones for the dogs every now and them. Marrow bones, and pig knuckles. They love them.

I've looked into pet store raw diets, and its blown waaaaay out of proportion as far as price and feeding goes. That is certainly not cost effective at all.

My ex-step dads side of the family is big on hunting, but there isn't much contact between that side of the family and this side... I can definitely see about that though, and was also thinking the same thing. They have a hunting camp in Michigan and we used to get enough deer to last us an entire year at a meal for four once or twice a week o.O Anyways, we are still on good terms with some of that family, so maybe we can get some free Bambi's.

We also fish a lot... What sorts of fish are good? Around here we have grouper, snapper, snook, mackerel, the occasional mahi, and like freshwater bass and catfish and what not. And obviously I can buy whatever is brought in to the markets and grocery stores thats at a decent price. Salmon (when it goes on sale), trout, tilapia and mullet (can also catch those), and a few other usuals.

As for beef, is there any certain cut thats better? I was thinking the stew meat looked good because its all chopped up into Bentley-sized pieces, and its decently priced. Also some of the roasts.

Pork is pretty cheap too. Same question as the beef: any certain cuts?

I'll look into that thread, thanks smile  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Ask the butcher in your local supermarket. Mine was THROWING AWAY turkey necks. Meanwhile my store selling them at like $10/lb Any local butchers too. I wouldn't personally rely on veggies to get your vitamins. Depending on how you feed them. I mean there's a lot of indigestible fiber there. It's debatable how much of the vegetables is actually absorbed by the dog. Organ meat is a very rich source of vitamins. Specifically liver & heart.

There's a lot of different WAYS to feed raw. According to Dr. Billinghurst (founder of B.A.R.F) RMB's should make up 50% of your dog's diet. And if memory serves, aiming for a 2:1 meat to bone ratio. Organ meat should make up 10-15% a "small amount" of carbs and the remainder should be veggies. You don't need to meat this balance in every meal. You can do it over a week. Personally I think Fat/Carbs/Protein should be available in almost every meal.

At only 8lbs you may find that prey model feeding to be easiest. It takes zero calculating and the idea is that every vitamin/mineral/energy etc is available in the whole animal. So if you could find a butcher that sold whole rabbits, chickens, quail etc. Would be a lot less hassle.  

[Akari_32]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Ask the butcher in your local supermarket. Mine was THROWING AWAY turkey necks. Meanwhile my store selling them at like $10/lb Any local butchers too. I wouldn't personally rely on veggies to get your vitamins. Depending on how you feed them. I mean there's a lot of indigestible fiber there. It's debatable how much of the vegetables is actually absorbed by the dog. Organ meat is a very rich source of vitamins. Specifically liver & heart.

There's a lot of different WAYS to feed raw. According to Dr. Billinghurst (founder of B.A.R.F) RMB's should make up 50% of your dog's diet. And if memory serves, aiming for a 2:1 meat to bone ratio. Organ meat should make up 10-15% a "small amount" of carbs and the remainder should be veggies. You don't need to meat this balance in every meal. You can do it over a week. Personally I think Fat/Carbs/Protein should be available in almost every meal.

At only 8lbs you may find that prey model feeding to be easiest. It takes zero calculating and the idea is that every vitamin/mineral/energy etc is available in the whole animal. So if you could find a butcher that sold whole rabbits, chickens, quail etc. Would be a lot less hassle.

Yay, Gabby! biggrin I was hoping you'd find your way over here smile

Wow, throwing it away!? I wonder, since I don't see a lot of organs for sale in the meat department, if they do the same.... Free food! I'll certainly look into that.

Whats "prey model"?

I also want it to be as easy as possible for mom, such as keeping a few days worth of food in the fridge and filling his bowl right up and being done with it. Mom likes it easy, and she doesn't remember things sometimes. If I could get the whole animal, already cut up, and such, that'd be fantastic! Like I said, I can get roaster chickens easy, but without scoping out the local meat markets and butcher shops, I'm not really sure what else there is available.

What kind of veggies would you recommend? He loves everything from the squash family (pumpkin is his favorite, and I've got two huuuuuge cans just for him if/when I decide to start this), and likes romaine lettuce lol

Oh, I forgot, there is occasionally calf and veal liver at the store. Not very often. May be a special order type deal, I dunno.

And for his poor, itchy skin, I was just looking at this stuff. --> http://www.petco.com/product/7286/Shed-X-Dermaplex-for-Dogs.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

Could this be something that may be beneficial? Its just a vitamin suppliment.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Akari_32

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Ask the butcher in your local supermarket. Mine was THROWING AWAY turkey necks. Meanwhile my store selling them at like $10/lb Any local butchers too. I wouldn't personally rely on veggies to get your vitamins. Depending on how you feed them. I mean there's a lot of indigestible fiber there. It's debatable how much of the vegetables is actually absorbed by the dog. Organ meat is a very rich source of vitamins. Specifically liver & heart.

There's a lot of different WAYS to feed raw. According to Dr. Billinghurst (founder of B.A.R.F) RMB's should make up 50% of your dog's diet. And if memory serves, aiming for a 2:1 meat to bone ratio. Organ meat should make up 10-15% a "small amount" of carbs and the remainder should be veggies. You don't need to meat this balance in every meal. You can do it over a week. Personally I think Fat/Carbs/Protein should be available in almost every meal.

At only 8lbs you may find that prey model feeding to be easiest. It takes zero calculating and the idea is that every vitamin/mineral/energy etc is available in the whole animal. So if you could find a butcher that sold whole rabbits, chickens, quail etc. Would be a lot less hassle.

Yay, Gabby! biggrin I was hoping you'd find your way over here smile

Wow, throwing it away!? I wonder, since I don't see a lot of organs for sale in the meat department, if they do the same.... Free food! I'll certainly look into that.

Whats "prey model"?

I also want it to be as easy as possible for mom, such as keeping a few days worth of food in the fridge and filling his bowl right up and being done with it. Mom likes it easy, and she doesn't remember things sometimes. If I could get the whole animal, already cut up, and such, that'd be fantastic! Like I said, I can get roaster chickens easy, but without scoping out the local meat markets and butcher shops, I'm not really sure what else there is available.

What kind of veggies would you recommend? He loves everything from the squash family (pumpkin is his favorite, and I've got two huuuuuge cans just for him if/when I decide to start this), and likes romaine lettuce lol

Oh, I forgot, there is occasionally calf and veal liver at the store. Not very often. May be a special order type deal, I dunno.

And for his poor, itchy skin, I was just looking at this stuff. --> http://www.petco.com/product/7286/Shed-X-Dermaplex-for-Dogs.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

Could this be something that may be beneficial? Its just a vitamin suppliment.

"Prey model" takes species appropriate diet to the fullest. Basically the theory is that the entire animals has everything your dog needs. Why buy meat AND organs. Just buy a whole chicken, WITH all the organs (eyes, stomach etc) and feed it to the dog. When doing this you want to choose appropriate sized animals though. Quail, Rabbit and Fish are good for a small dog. You could get away with chicken if you cut it into quarters and feed it throughout the week. This type of feeding usually DOESN'T involved fruits, veggies, grains or legumes. Personally I'm not so comfortable with that part. You are relying on the theory that dogs are OBLIGATE Carnivores. This is not the case. Cats yes. Dogs no. Dogs are opportunistic Omnivores. So I like to give fruits and veggies, and some may say well they get enough fruit and veg matter from stomach content. But 1. It's not always easy to find meat with stomachs not yet removed and there's good reason for that. This is where your intestinal parasites are found. It's a lot safer and I think healthier not to feed whole stomachs.

As for what veggies to feed. Ultimately anything your dog likes but the more variety the better. Personally I believe no one knows all when it comes to nutrition. About a decade ago, cats on kibble were going blind! That's when Taurine was discovered. I think there may be nutrients we don't even realize exist and by feeding a variety of veggies you can be sure your dog is getting all vitamins.

For now, start with feeding mostly kibble. And one or two nights a week. Offer a a RMB as a special treat. And once a week, try him on some organ meat. Some dogs don't like organ meat they find it too rich. If this is the case, try blending it with his favourite veggies. Give veggies throughout the week instead of whatever cookies he gets. Or if he doesn't get treats, cut back a smidgen on kibble and throw in a bit of veggies with his meal.

It would be a good idea to pick up a book or two on raw. You don't need to follow them like a bible. Just to get an idea of what foods have what vitamins. Wether you need to supplement or not. kelp/alfalfa is a good way to make sure they get all their vitamins and minerals.

That supplement you posted looks pretty decent. But once he gets more fresh foods you shouldn't need it. You can also try giving canned sardines once or twice a week. (Make sure its in water, not sauce). More omegas mean a nicer coat.  

[Akari_32]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

]

"Prey model" takes species appropriate diet to the fullest. Basically the theory is that the entire animals has everything your dog needs. Why buy meat AND organs. Just buy a whole chicken, WITH all the organs (eyes, stomach etc) and feed it to the dog. When doing this you want to choose appropriate sized animals though. Quail, Rabbit and Fish are good for a small dog. You could get away with chicken if you cut it into quarters and feed it throughout the week. This type of feeding usually DOESN'T involved fruits, veggies, grains or legumes. Personally I'm not so comfortable with that part. You are relying on the theory that dogs are OBLIGATE Carnivores. This is not the case. Cats yes. Dogs no. Dogs are opportunistic Omnivores. So I like to give fruits and veggies, and some may say well they get enough fruit and veg matter from stomach content. But 1. It's not always easy to find meat with stomachs not yet removed and there's good reason for that. This is where your intestinal parasites are found. It's a lot safer and I think healthier not to feed whole stomachs.

As for what veggies to feed. Ultimately anything your dog likes but the more variety the better. Personally I believe no one knows all when it comes to nutrition. About a decade ago, cats on kibble were going blind! That's when Taurine was discovered. I think there may be nutrients we don't even realize exist and by feeding a variety of veggies you can be sure your dog is getting all vitamins.

For now, start with feeding mostly kibble. And one or two nights a week. Offer a a RMB as a special treat. And once a week, try him on some organ meat. Some dogs don't like organ meat they find it too rich. If this is the case, try blending it with his favourite veggies. Give veggies throughout the week instead of whatever cookies he gets. Or if he doesn't get treats, cut back a smidgen on kibble and throw in a bit of veggies with his meal.

It would be a good idea to pick up a book or two on raw. You don't need to follow them like a bible. Just to get an idea of what foods have what vitamins. Wether you need to supplement or not. kelp/alfalfa is a good way to make sure they get all their vitamins and minerals.

That supplement you posted looks pretty decent. But once he gets more fresh foods you shouldn't need it. You can also try giving canned sardines once or twice a week. (Make sure its in water, not sauce). More omegas mean a nicer coat.

I've read about that stomach thing, which totally weirds me out... I think I'll avoid the stomach.

I've been looking at meat prices, and the cheapest by far is, obviously, chicken. Most of it is a buck 99 a pound, which is very well priced, and I could certainly get on board with that. The next cheapest would be certain cuts of beef (stew, mock tenderloin, some of the roasts, ect), followed by some of the turkey bits, and some lamb. Pork isn't too bad when it's on sale, either.

Now, he's allergic to chicken. Maybe he's only allergeic to cooked chicken? Who knows. Knowing this, do you think it would be a good to try him on raw chicken? It's the most cost effective, and I'd love to try this diet out with him, even if I don't decide to make it his exclusive diet. I've got him on TOTW Southwest Canyon right now, and he seems ok on it (I haven't noticed any exesive chewing and the red around his lips is starting to fade from his chicken and grain laced Wellness).

For treats he gets Cadet Sweet Potato and Duck wraps. He eats them like bones. I also bought some of the new Milkbones (beef and oatmeal and what nots) for the big dogs, but she gives them to Bentley. The second ingredient in them is chicken meal and then obviously they've got oatmeal and are wheat based *facepalm*

I haven't checked the local meat market yet (I'm still undecided about if I'll try this or not) but I did ask the meat department at work and they said their scraps are picked up by a company, and everything they can sell is on the shelf. So free meat was a bust lol

He definitely needs something to help his skin. The poor dude has a spot on his back that even whitening shampoo can't help, he's chewed it so bad. It's stained his fur and just won't come out. He's stopped chewing on it, it seems, though, so maybe I can work at it now that he isn't bothering it anymore...  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

you could certainly try him on raw chicken. I find it's more dogs with intolerances rather than allergies that can handle the same protein raw. But it could still work. Just be careful when selecting bones. I know people who've fed beef bones all their lives and I happened to be one of the unlucky few who's dog ended up with a fractured tooth. And THAT is not a cheap fix. So I now recommend to stay AWAY from beef bones or anything that is denser than the dog's teeth. So, that means no antlers, no beef bones. And for a small dog try to choose appropriate bones. Chicken, rabbit, quail, turkey. These are all fairly pliable raw bones. Lamb&Pork depends on what bones, to be safe I'd say you can feed the meat but avoid the bones.

Cowboy is currently on Hills J/D for his arthritis. I get it at cost and it has so much Omegas I don't need to supplement so I save a TON of money. And he's done surprisingly well, despite the fact that it has corn, his poops are just as solid as when he was on Orijen Senior. I do however, secretly supplement with some RMB. I love turkey necks. I have to be ESPECIALLY careful because Cowboy has a filling. So I like cartilage bones like necks.

You could try that product for now. Until you get the hang of the new diet. I think the most important thing is to get him OFF the milk bones. TOTW is a good food, although not as high in Omega's as Acana/Orijen. You still shouldn't be seeing such severe skin issues on that food.  

[Akari_32]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

you could certainly try him on raw chicken. I find it's more dogs with intolerances rather than allergies that can handle the same protein raw. But it could still work. Just be careful when selecting bones. I know people who've fed beef bones all their lives and I happened to be one of the unlucky few who's dog ended up with a fractured tooth. And THAT is not a cheap fix. So I now recommend to stay AWAY from beef bones or anything that is denser than the dog's teeth. So, that means no antlers, no beef bones. And for a small dog try to choose appropriate bones. Chicken, rabbit, quail, turkey. These are all fairly pliable raw bones. Lamb&Pork depends on what bones, to be safe I'd say you can feed the meat but avoid the bones.

Cowboy is currently on Hills J/D for his arthritis. I get it at cost and it has so much Omegas I don't need to supplement so I save a TON of money. And he's done surprisingly well, despite the fact that it has corn, his poops are just as solid as when he was on Orijen Senior. I do however, secretly supplement with some RMB. I love turkey necks. I have to be ESPECIALLY careful because Cowboy has a filling. So I like cartilage bones like necks.

You could try that product for now. Until you get the hang of the new diet. I think the most important thing is to get him OFF the milk bones. TOTW is a good food, although not as high in Omega's as Acana/Orijen. You still shouldn't be seeing such severe skin issues on that food.

When he eats a food with chicken or grains, his legs, tummy, and mouth turn red and he chews himself like he's been dropped in a bucket of fire ants. I could feed him mainly on turkey and pork, with some beef and lamb thrown in every now and then. We sell what I call pig knuckles, which are actually hocks I guess. The big dogs love them, but I've never tried them with Bentley. The big dogs easily eat the bones and meat. I also give marrow bones (beef) and let them go at the marrow, and then take away the bone when the meat is gone. I still haven't been near the market when it's open to see what they have...

Oirjen is way out of my price range, unfortunately. I could barely afford the $30 for 15 pounds of TOTW. Constant lower prices are better for me, like how a raw diet would be, rather than few and far between higher prices, because for some reason I always need something big at the same I need dog food. Life hates me lol Anyways, it's $50 for 14 pounds of Oirjen here. But, his skin is already getting better after just a week or so of being on TOTW. He still chews his feet, but I'm not sure if it's because they actually itch or because it's a boredom type thing.

As for the Milkbones, I get on mom all the time about giving them to him. I give him either the sweet potato and duck treats or sometimes DentaSticks (yeah yeah, not very good, but we have a lot of them...).  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Akari_32

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

you could certainly try him on raw chicken. I find it's more dogs with intolerances rather than allergies that can handle the same protein raw. But it could still work. Just be careful when selecting bones. I know people who've fed beef bones all their lives and I happened to be one of the unlucky few who's dog ended up with a fractured tooth. And THAT is not a cheap fix. So I now recommend to stay AWAY from beef bones or anything that is denser than the dog's teeth. So, that means no antlers, no beef bones. And for a small dog try to choose appropriate bones. Chicken, rabbit, quail, turkey. These are all fairly pliable raw bones. Lamb&Pork depends on what bones, to be safe I'd say you can feed the meat but avoid the bones.

Cowboy is currently on Hills J/D for his arthritis. I get it at cost and it has so much Omegas I don't need to supplement so I save a TON of money. And he's done surprisingly well, despite the fact that it has corn, his poops are just as solid as when he was on Orijen Senior. I do however, secretly supplement with some RMB. I love turkey necks. I have to be ESPECIALLY careful because Cowboy has a filling. So I like cartilage bones like necks.

You could try that product for now. Until you get the hang of the new diet. I think the most important thing is to get him OFF the milk bones. TOTW is a good food, although not as high in Omega's as Acana/Orijen. You still shouldn't be seeing such severe skin issues on that food.

When he eats a food with chicken or grains, his legs, tummy, and mouth turn red and he chews himself like he's been dropped in a bucket of fire ants. I could feed him mainly on turkey and pork, with some beef and lamb thrown in every now and then. We sell what I call pig knuckles, which are actually hocks I guess. The big dogs love them, but I've never tried them with Bentley. The big dogs easily eat the bones and meat. I also give marrow bones (beef) and let them go at the marrow, and then take away the bone when the meat is gone. I still haven't been near the market when it's open to see what they have...

Oirjen is way out of my price range, unfortunately. I could barely afford the $30 for 15 pounds of TOTW. Constant lower prices are better for me, like how a raw diet would be, rather than few and far between higher prices, because for some reason I always need something big at the same I need dog food. Life hates me lol Anyways, it's $50 for 14 pounds of Oirjen here. But, his skin is already getting better after just a week or so of being on TOTW. He still chews his feet, but I'm not sure if it's because they actually itch or because it's a boredom type thing.

As for the Milkbones, I get on mom all the time about giving them to him. I give him either the sweet potato and duck treats or sometimes DentaSticks (yeah yeah, not very good, but we have a lot of them...).

Blergh. Dentastix. I seriously hate their commercials. I guess it's cute if your not a tech and don't know how horrible they are. It pisses me off when they say "clinically proven" HOW? YOU FAILED the VOH tests several times. You are NOT VOH accredited so give it up. AND they are super fatning. Better off just giving a whole carrot :p

I would def get on your mom's case about the milk bones. Otherwise getting the shedding stuff will be mostly a waste of money. Also it will be impossible to tell if the diet change is working so long as he still gets anything with chicken in it. I think stick to turkey and other meats for now, and after about 3 month introduce raw chicken and see if you get a reaction.

Is Acana available? It's like half the price of Orijen. Same quality, same ingredients just less meat based. But almost as high in omegas. For ME being in Canada Acana was actually about the same price or cheaper than other US brands like TOTW and Blue Buffalo. It's nice to have some kibble on hand too if ever ur traveling. Or you go away for a weekend and want to make life easier for those feeding your dog.  

[Akari_32]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Blergh. Dentastix. I seriously hate their commercials. I guess it's cute if your not a tech and don't know how horrible they are. It pisses me off when they say "clinically proven" HOW? YOU FAILED the VOH tests several times. You are NOT VOH accredited so give it up. AND they are super fatning. Better off just giving a whole carrot :p

I would def get on your mom's case about the milk bones. Otherwise getting the shedding stuff will be mostly a waste of money. Also it will be impossible to tell if the diet change is working so long as he still gets anything with chicken in it. I think stick to turkey and other meats for now, and after about 3 month introduce raw chicken and see if you get a reaction.

Is Acana available? It's like half the price of Orijen. Same quality, same ingredients just less meat based. But almost as high in omegas. For ME being in Canada Acana was actually about the same price or cheaper than other US brands like TOTW and Blue Buffalo. It's nice to have some kibble on hand too if ever ur traveling. Or you go away for a weekend and want to make life easier for those feeding your dog.

I call them chemical sticks, hah. I do opt to give him the sweet potato things over the DentaSticks, and I think I'll give the other bag to my friend, who goes through treats like they're going out of style.

I don't we have Acana around here. I have coupons for a FREE can of Blue. I plan on stocking on those while the coupons are in date, and also $5 off any size bag. None of the dry foods are no chicken and no grains, that I can find though. I've emailed and asked, rather than digging through website after website to figure it out. But there are a few of their canned foods that will work. I don't think I'll feed him on all canned, but I'll mix in with his TOTW. Otherwise, the big dogs will love it mixed in their food.

While we're on the topic of canned food, what percentage of protein should I be looking at for canned foods? I'm so used to looking for around 30% in dry foods, and most of the Blue Buffalo is 8%, which I think is good, based on interneting, but I'm not sure...

And how do those pork hocks sound for him? Ok? One could easily be a big meal for him!  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Akari_32

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Blergh. Dentastix. I seriously hate their commercials. I guess it's cute if your not a tech and don't know how horrible they are. It pisses me off when they say "clinically proven" HOW? YOU FAILED the VOH tests several times. You are NOT VOH accredited so give it up. AND they are super fatning. Better off just giving a whole carrot :p

I would def get on your mom's case about the milk bones. Otherwise getting the shedding stuff will be mostly a waste of money. Also it will be impossible to tell if the diet change is working so long as he still gets anything with chicken in it. I think stick to turkey and other meats for now, and after about 3 month introduce raw chicken and see if you get a reaction.

Is Acana available? It's like half the price of Orijen. Same quality, same ingredients just less meat based. But almost as high in omegas. For ME being in Canada Acana was actually about the same price or cheaper than other US brands like TOTW and Blue Buffalo. It's nice to have some kibble on hand too if ever ur traveling. Or you go away for a weekend and want to make life easier for those feeding your dog.

I call them chemical sticks, hah. I do opt to give him the sweet potato things over the DentaSticks, and I think I'll give the other bag to my friend, who goes through treats like they're going out of style.

I don't we have Acana around here. I have coupons for a FREE can of Blue. I plan on stocking on those while the coupons are in date, and also $5 off any size bag. None of the dry foods are no chicken and no grains, that I can find though. I've emailed and asked, rather than digging through website after website to figure it out. But there are a few of their canned foods that will work. I don't think I'll feed him on all canned, but I'll mix in with his TOTW. Otherwise, the big dogs will love it mixed in their food.

While we're on the topic of canned food, what percentage of protein should I be looking at for canned foods? I'm so used to looking for around 30% in dry foods, and most of the Blue Buffalo is 8%, which I think is good, based on interneting, but I'm not sure...

And how do those pork hocks sound for him? Ok? One could easily be a big meal for him!

The best way to compare foods is on a dry matter basis. This may SOUND complicated, so bear with me. The protein % is not accurate when 10% of the food is water. So simply take wtv value you're looking at, in this case protein. Divide by the dry matter (so if there's 10% moisture that means 90% of the food is dry matter) and then multiply by 100 to get your real %. So 30% protein/ 90% dry matter= 0.3333 OR 33.33% protein.

8% protein in canned food (depending on your moisture content, usually being about 70%) would be equivalent to around 26.7% protein DMB. So you'd probably want to look for 9% protein on a can with 70% moisture. As for the hock, ive given those in the past without issue. But, you will have to use your own judgement. Just remember anything DENSER than your dogs teeth COULD potentially, though rarely, cause a fracture.  

[Akari_32]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Akari_32

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Blergh. Dentastix. I seriously hate their commercials. I guess it's cute if your not a tech and don't know how horrible they are. It pisses me off when they say "clinically proven" HOW? YOU FAILED the VOH tests several times. You are NOT VOH accredited so give it up. AND they are super fatning. Better off just giving a whole carrot :p

I would def get on your mom's case about the milk bones. Otherwise getting the shedding stuff will be mostly a waste of money. Also it will be impossible to tell if the diet change is working so long as he still gets anything with chicken in it. I think stick to turkey and other meats for now, and after about 3 month introduce raw chicken and see if you get a reaction.

Is Acana available? It's like half the price of Orijen. Same quality, same ingredients just less meat based. But almost as high in omegas. For ME being in Canada Acana was actually about the same price or cheaper than other US brands like TOTW and Blue Buffalo. It's nice to have some kibble on hand too if ever ur traveling. Or you go away for a weekend and want to make life easier for those feeding your dog.

I call them chemical sticks, hah. I do opt to give him the sweet potato things over the DentaSticks, and I think I'll give the other bag to my friend, who goes through treats like they're going out of style.

I don't we have Acana around here. I have coupons for a FREE can of Blue. I plan on stocking on those while the coupons are in date, and also $5 off any size bag. None of the dry foods are no chicken and no grains, that I can find though. I've emailed and asked, rather than digging through website after website to figure it out. But there are a few of their canned foods that will work. I don't think I'll feed him on all canned, but I'll mix in with his TOTW. Otherwise, the big dogs will love it mixed in their food.

While we're on the topic of canned food, what percentage of protein should I be looking at for canned foods? I'm so used to looking for around 30% in dry foods, and most of the Blue Buffalo is 8%, which I think is good, based on interneting, but I'm not sure...

And how do those pork hocks sound for him? Ok? One could easily be a big meal for him!

The best way to compare foods is on a dry matter basis. This may SOUND complicated, so bear with me. The protein % is not accurate when 10% of the food is water. So simply take wtv value you're looking at, in this case protein. Divide by the dry matter (so if there's 10% moisture that means 90% of the food is dry matter) and then multiply by 100 to get your real %. So 30% protein/ 90% dry matter= 0.3333 OR 33.33% protein.

8% protein in canned food (depending on your moisture content, usually being about 70%) would be equivalent to around 26.7% protein DMB. So you'd probably want to look for 9% protein on a can with 70% moisture. As for the hock, ive given those in the past without issue. But, you will have to use your own judgement. Just remember anything DENSER than your dogs teeth COULD potentially, though rarely, cause a fracture.

So, this can says:

Crude protein: 8.5% min
Crude fat: 2% min
Crude fiber 1.5 % max
Moisture 78 % max

This is Blue Buffalo Divine Delights Duck. So what would that be put at on a dry matter basis (so I can see exactly what you're doing lol)?

And we're still missing 10%...?  

[Ailinea]

I'm very late to this, sorry! I'm a huge proponent of prey model raw, which, by the way, does not mean giving whole animals unless you have it. It's called prey MODEL, which means you give different parts in appropriate amounts to constitute whole prey. Frankenprey, as we call it. Chicken quarter, beef liver, pork spleen, etc in the 80% meat 10% bone 10% organ ratio. You're free to feed veggies and fruits if you want, but personally I don't think it should take place of the other nutritious stuff. Just extra smile

Here's a guide to help you get started if you want!

show spoilerhide spoiler

Want to start your dog on raw feeding but you're not quite sure where to start, what to do, or are a little intimidated by it? Never fear, it's actually super easy! Here is a sort of guide based on my experiences, and information I've collected.

Despite popular belief, dogs are carnivores. They are very closely related to the wolf, enough to successfully breed viable offspring, so it can only be concluded that dogs are wolves and wolves are carnivores. With that in mind, we should be feeding our dogs an optimal diet - what nature intended. Prey-model raw is the best way to go. Dogs and wolves do not need veggies or carbs. Their digestive system is short like a carnivore’s, and cannot break down or digest plant matter. The only way a dog or wolf can obtain nutrients from vegetables, fruit, or grains is by cooking or blending… neither of these options available to wolves in the wild. The herbivore does all that plant eating and the carnivore eats the herbivore. The trophic pyramid is a wonderful thing, don’t you think?

Prey model raw consists of 4 "ingredients."
80% meat (muscle meat, heart, tongue, lungs, tripe, intestines, etc.)
10% edible bone
5% liver
5% organ (squishy, secreting organs like eyes, brain, spleen, kidney, pancreas, testicles, sweetbreads (thymus))

Dogs should be getting 2-3% of their IDEAL body weight to start. Puppies should be fed by their ideal ADULT weight and should be fed several times a day. This percentage can be adjusted once you get to know your dog. If your dog is getting too porky, feed less; if your dog is getting too skinny or is very active, feed more.

No need to fast after kibble unless it makes you feel better. You can start the transition right away. You don’t need to start feeding half kibble, half raw either. Just switch cold turkey and jump right in! Start your dog off with chicken. Chicken is mild, a little bland, and easily digestible. A lot of people like to start with chicken leg quarters. Some like to feed a whole chicken. Don’t add any organs or any other meat until your dog adjusts to this as you can cause what we call “cannon butt” which… is very smelly and messy, and trust me, you don’t want to experience that. Start off with this for a least a couple weeks to see how your dog adjusts. Monitor your dogs input and output (poop) carefully. If your dog has runny poop, feed more bone. If he has hard, white stools or seems constipated, feed less bone. Once your dog's poops seem normal and it's been a few weeks on just chicken, you can begin to add in other meats. Some dogs will take to new meats added instantly very well. However, some dogs have very sensitive tummies and may need a slow transition to the next protein, especially if it will be a fatty cut like pork. To be on the safe side, you could transition slowly, that is, give a quarter of the next meal as the new meat for a couple meals, then move up to a half of the meal, then 3/4, then finally to the whole meal being the new meat. Go at a pace you'e comfortable with. Once your dog gets used to three or four proteins, then you may begin to feed liver and organs. Remember, not too much! They are very rich and can cause loose stools. But they are necessary.

You might have trouble getting your dog to start on his own. The trick is not to give in. Put your dog’s food down, and if he doesn’t eat within 15 minutes, take it away and try again at next meal time or several hours later. A healthy dog will not starve himself. Sometimes dogs will hold out for days before giving in (mine did for 3 days). DO NOT GIVE IN. Or hand feed. Or give something else. Or anything. You will set yourself up for disaster and a horribly picky eater. Eventually he will eat what you offer him, and you’ll do a little dance, and your dog will see that you’re awesome for giving him this food.

Feed WHOLE! I know a lot of people like to feed ground because it’s cheaper and easier, and a little ground is OK, but also let your dog have the satisfaction of whole cuts of meat. Give him a whole chicken to power through and use those natural carnassial teeth to rip and tear that meat and bone. Some great cuts of meat to feed your dog are whole birds, rabbits, squirrels, bone-in pork shoulder and butt, pork ribs, lamb ribs and shanks, whole pork necks, deer/goat/sheep/pig heads, etc. Avoid beef bones are they are hard on the teeth and have been known to cause breakage, and any kind of bone that has been cut with a saw, as these cut bones are very sharp and the heat used to cut the bone *may* cause splintering. In any case, this is a case of “know thy dog.” Feed bigger than the dog’s head to prevent choking and take away any bones that your dog cannot eat once they strip the meat off. Also, avoid the weight-bearing bones of large ungulates (cow, moose, elk, bison, etc) as they are very hard and, while perhaps fun for the dog, have been known to cause slab fractures in teeth and hard wear-and-tear on the teeth that can cause problems down the road. These bones are most often called femurs, dinosaur bones, marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc.

Now… what supplements should you give? Ready… ready… almost none! The only supplement I add to my dog’s food is a high quality, soy-free fish body oil. This contains omega 3’s that replace some of the omega 3’s lost in factory farmed animals. Factory farmed animals are fed inappropriate grain diets and have limited movement, so they have an abnormal amount of omega 6 fatty acids to omega 3’s. My dog gets a “therapeutic dose” of omega 3’s because he has a heart condition. If you are feeding game meats (quail, deer, elk, etc) you don’t need to supplement fish oil if you don’t want to. But feel free to adjust fish oil supplement as needed.

Now, once you get the hang of it, it’s simple! I don’t even measure my dog’s meals anymore… I eyeball what he gets and I don’t get the ratios perfect every meal. The key is balance over time. For instance, I’ll feed him a few boneless meals for a few days, and one day give him a quartered chicken or pork ribs for bone. I’ll feed liver and organ once a week or so.

Ideally, feed red meat as a staple. Wolves’ natural prey is red meat, and it is the best. In my area in the US, pork is a great cheap staple meat and can usually be bought in bulk for a decent price. Beef heart can also be a great choice if it’s available and affordable in your area. Just look around at discounts at grocery stores, warehouses, butchers, abbatoirs, ethnic stores, etc, for the best buy.

That’s about it! You may have more specific questions, so feel free to ask me or you could join one of the many Facebook groups dedicated to the diet - I can suggest my favorites if you'd like. You and your dog will be much happier for your choice to go natural. Congrats, and good luck!

 

[Akari_32]

Ailinea

I'm very late to this, sorry! I'm a huge proponent of prey model raw, which, by the way, does not mean giving whole animals unless you have it. It's called prey MODEL, which means you give different parts in appropriate amounts to constitute whole prey. Frankenprey, as we call it. Chicken quarter, beef liver, pork spleen, etc in the 80% meat 10% bone 10% organ ratio. You're free to feed veggies and fruits if you want, but personally I don't think it should take place of the other nutritious stuff. Just extra smile

Here's a guide to help you get started if you want!

show spoilerhide spoiler

Want to start your dog on raw feeding but you're not quite sure where to start, what to do, or are a little intimidated by it? Never fear, it's actually super easy! Here is a sort of guide based on my experiences, and information I've collected.

Despite popular belief, dogs are carnivores. They are very closely related to the wolf, enough to successfully breed viable offspring, so it can only be concluded that dogs are wolves and wolves are carnivores. With that in mind, we should be feeding our dogs an optimal diet - what nature intended. Prey-model raw is the best way to go. Dogs and wolves do not need veggies or carbs. Their digestive system is short like a carnivore’s, and cannot break down or digest plant matter. The only way a dog or wolf can obtain nutrients from vegetables, fruit, or grains is by cooking or blending… neither of these options available to wolves in the wild. The herbivore does all that plant eating and the carnivore eats the herbivore. The trophic pyramid is a wonderful thing, don’t you think?

Prey model raw consists of 4 "ingredients."
80% meat (muscle meat, heart, tongue, lungs, tripe, intestines, etc.)
10% edible bone
5% liver
5% organ (squishy, secreting organs like eyes, brain, spleen, kidney, pancreas, testicles, sweetbreads (thymus))

Dogs should be getting 2-3% of their IDEAL body weight to start. Puppies should be fed by their ideal ADULT weight and should be fed several times a day. This percentage can be adjusted once you get to know your dog. If your dog is getting too porky, feed less; if your dog is getting too skinny or is very active, feed more.

No need to fast after kibble unless it makes you feel better. You can start the transition right away. You don’t need to start feeding half kibble, half raw either. Just switch cold turkey and jump right in! Start your dog off with chicken. Chicken is mild, a little bland, and easily digestible. A lot of people like to start with chicken leg quarters. Some like to feed a whole chicken. Don’t add any organs or any other meat until your dog adjusts to this as you can cause what we call “cannon butt” which… is very smelly and messy, and trust me, you don’t want to experience that. Start off with this for a least a couple weeks to see how your dog adjusts. Monitor your dogs input and output (poop) carefully. If your dog has runny poop, feed more bone. If he has hard, white stools or seems constipated, feed less bone. Once your dog's poops seem normal and it's been a few weeks on just chicken, you can begin to add in other meats. Some dogs will take to new meats added instantly very well. However, some dogs have very sensitive tummies and may need a slow transition to the next protein, especially if it will be a fatty cut like pork. To be on the safe side, you could transition slowly, that is, give a quarter of the next meal as the new meat for a couple meals, then move up to a half of the meal, then 3/4, then finally to the whole meal being the new meat. Go at a pace you'e comfortable with. Once your dog gets used to three or four proteins, then you may begin to feed liver and organs. Remember, not too much! They are very rich and can cause loose stools. But they are necessary.

You might have trouble getting your dog to start on his own. The trick is not to give in. Put your dog’s food down, and if he doesn’t eat within 15 minutes, take it away and try again at next meal time or several hours later. A healthy dog will not starve himself. Sometimes dogs will hold out for days before giving in (mine did for 3 days). DO NOT GIVE IN. Or hand feed. Or give something else. Or anything. You will set yourself up for disaster and a horribly picky eater. Eventually he will eat what you offer him, and you’ll do a little dance, and your dog will see that you’re awesome for giving him this food.

Feed WHOLE! I know a lot of people like to feed ground because it’s cheaper and easier, and a little ground is OK, but also let your dog have the satisfaction of whole cuts of meat. Give him a whole chicken to power through and use those natural carnassial teeth to rip and tear that meat and bone. Some great cuts of meat to feed your dog are whole birds, rabbits, squirrels, bone-in pork shoulder and butt, pork ribs, lamb ribs and shanks, whole pork necks, deer/goat/sheep/pig heads, etc. Avoid beef bones are they are hard on the teeth and have been known to cause breakage, and any kind of bone that has been cut with a saw, as these cut bones are very sharp and the heat used to cut the bone *may* cause splintering. In any case, this is a case of “know thy dog.” Feed bigger than the dog’s head to prevent choking and take away any bones that your dog cannot eat once they strip the meat off. Also, avoid the weight-bearing bones of large ungulates (cow, moose, elk, bison, etc) as they are very hard and, while perhaps fun for the dog, have been known to cause slab fractures in teeth and hard wear-and-tear on the teeth that can cause problems down the road. These bones are most often called femurs, dinosaur bones, marrow bones, knuckle bones, etc.

Now… what supplements should you give? Ready… ready… almost none! The only supplement I add to my dog’s food is a high quality, soy-free fish body oil. This contains omega 3’s that replace some of the omega 3’s lost in factory farmed animals. Factory farmed animals are fed inappropriate grain diets and have limited movement, so they have an abnormal amount of omega 6 fatty acids to omega 3’s. My dog gets a “therapeutic dose” of omega 3’s because he has a heart condition. If you are feeding game meats (quail, deer, elk, etc) you don’t need to supplement fish oil if you don’t want to. But feel free to adjust fish oil supplement as needed.

Now, once you get the hang of it, it’s simple! I don’t even measure my dog’s meals anymore… I eyeball what he gets and I don’t get the ratios perfect every meal. The key is balance over time. For instance, I’ll feed him a few boneless meals for a few days, and one day give him a quartered chicken or pork ribs for bone. I’ll feed liver and organ once a week or so.

Ideally, feed red meat as a staple. Wolves’ natural prey is red meat, and it is the best. In my area in the US, pork is a great cheap staple meat and can usually be bought in bulk for a decent price. Beef heart can also be a great choice if it’s available and affordable in your area. Just look around at discounts at grocery stores, warehouses, butchers, abbatoirs, ethnic stores, etc, for the best buy.

That’s about it! You may have more specific questions, so feel free to ask me or you could join one of the many Facebook groups dedicated to the diet - I can suggest my favorites if you'd like. You and your dog will be much happier for your choice to go natural. Congrats, and good luck!

You're the best, thank you smile I skimmed over it for now, but when I'm off work I'll look into it better.