prayer at public meetings

[chessiejo]

our county, Essex, in NY, is having a big hubbub because the county executive single handedly stopped having prayer before each meeting.

he says it was illegal and he is avoiding lawsuits.

his opponents say maybe, but he should have talked it over with the commissioners first, before acting. so they are not in favor of the prayers necessarily, but just in the way the thing was handled.

the same guy, a Roman Catholic deacon, said the prayers every month. There was no rotation between different groups.

i know some people find it offensive; i personally do not, but the official prayers of someone with whom I have some serious differences may not benefit me anyway.

so how do you feel about this?  

[GeekWhistle]

My gripe against prayers before official meetings in general is that really they only include some branch of Christianity. Which is kind of unfair. I wouldn't have any real problem with such things if they rotated who was doing said prayer. Like if this meeting a Catholic guy wanted to pray and next one a Muslim and the one after a pagan, ect - I'd be all good with the concept. Or even if they did some kind of joint prayer like me and my friends do over lunch - we're a Mormon, a few Christians, a Muslim, a Wiccan, and me - and we all feel it necessary to bless the food so sometimes we all pray at once and babble over each other, and sometimes we all just say something really short and kind of go around the table. Like one of my Christian friends might say "Thank you Jesus for this food" and I might add "Bless it oh mother Goddess" and then somebody else adds something and we just rotate who starts and ends. Something like that might even work before a meeting so everybody's included. And in those cases I'd be more than fine with the idea of it.

But in cases where you mentioned, where it's the same guy doing the prayer for every single meeting - there's just so many religions that get left out. And as these meeting usually don't just decide things for the Christian population of where ever they are - I don't think it's fair.

So to put it shortly I agree that the county executive stopped having prayer before the meetings, but I think he could have maybe asked other people how they felt about it, before just making that decision on his own. Ideally I think it'd have been nice if he'd brought up the idea of making the prayer thing more inclusive like I mentioned above, but I don't see such things happening in the states anytime soon. Unfortunately.  

[Shadows-shine]

I've always been indifferent about prayers before public meetings.Mainly because I don't think they affect the meeting or solve or hinder any agenda items.  

[chessiejo]

GeekWhistle

My gripe against prayers before official meetings in general is that really they only include some branch of Christianity. Which is kind of unfair. I wouldn't have any real problem with such things if they rotated who was doing said prayer. Like if this meeting a Catholic guy wanted to pray and next one a Muslim and the one after a pagan, ect - I'd be all good with the concept. Or even if they did some kind of joint prayer like me and my friends do over lunch - we're a Mormon, a few Christians, a Muslim, a Wiccan, and me - and we all feel it necessary to bless the food so sometimes we all pray at once and babble over each other, and sometimes we all just say something really short and kind of go around the table. Like one of my Christian friends might say "Thank you Jesus for this food" and I might add "Bless it oh mother Goddess" and then somebody else adds something and we just rotate who starts and ends. Something like that might even work before a meeting so everybody's included. And in those cases I'd be more than fine with the idea of it.

But in cases where you mentioned, where it's the same guy doing the prayer for every single meeting - there's just so many religions that get left out. And as these meeting usually don't just decide things for the Christian population of where ever they are - I don't think it's fair.

So to put it shortly I agree that the county executive stopped having prayer before the meetings, but I think he could have maybe asked other people how they felt about it, before just making that decision on his own. Ideally I think it'd have been nice if he'd brought up the idea of making the prayer thing more inclusive like I mentioned above, but I don't see such things happening in the states anytime soon. Unfortunately.

i realize that this does not sound very profound, but i know some pagans and wiccans and a satanist out here in the boondocks, and it would be fun if they got to join a rotation like that. I mean, we do not agree on our beliefs but i still like them as people and do not understand why they should not be accepted.

i just do not know whether they would be willing to take part. my satanist buddy for instance does not like to mix and mingle with most Christians,  

[GeekWhistle]

chessiejo

i realize that this does not sound very profound, but i know some pagans and wiccans and a satanist out here in the boondocks, and it would be fun if they got to join a rotation like that. I mean, we do not agree on our beliefs but i still like them as people and do not understand why they should not be accepted.

i just do not know whether they would be willing to take part. my satanist buddy for instance does not like to mix and mingle with most Christians,

That's part of the reason why I don't see such rotations hitting the mainstream anytime soon. Not because it isn't possible, but I think the people that can - to steal your term - mix and mingle with people who have openly opposing beliefs are in the minority. I might not always agree with my friends from a religious standpoint - but they're good people. And there's a level of respect we have for each other - and for people in general so long as they're good people. Everybody's welcome at the lunch table, so long as they can maintain that level of respect.... I think it'd be nice if more people were at least willing to give these things a shot, and stay respectful of all involved - we might all get something out of it.  

[Kusugari]

Its a bit subjective, in my opinion. If you express a separation of church and state, freedom of religion, etc., then it is unlawful for you to force a prayer at a public area, unless the event was hosted by a specific religion, in which case they have every right for prayer seeing as those who came knew what they were in for.
In a theocracy, where everyone is required to have a single religion based on the government, then prayer is mandatory because the church and state are not separate and so public meetings about politics and such are still a matter of the religion.
I'm not saying prayer is BAD, but forcing prayer in a political or other non-religious meeting in a country where the church is separate is unfair to the residents even if they share the beliefs. You did not come to this meeting to praise your god, you came to deal with real issues with your peers.  

[Victoria of Gallifrey]

I get seperation of church and state and all that jazz. But prayer is pretty harmless. I mean, don't require that everyone participate and problem solved, right? But I'm no lawyer. Pretty sure I'm missing some legal nail in the whole picture.  

[Jhan Tikanu]

SoS Sailor Venus

I mean, don't require that everyone participate and problem solved, right?

The problem is that I went to the meeting for whatever the meeting is supposed to be about, and now I am a captive audience forced to listen to a prayer I, as a Satanist, Hindu, Jew, etc have no interest in and am opposed to hearing.

When I go to a governmental meeting, I expect no prayer to be included. Why should the views of any particular religion be forced to be endured by those who disagree with them? I know that most here are in an area populated mainly by Christians, so how would you like a meeting opened with a Muslim prayer? Not so much. So now the idea of rotating religions for the opening invocation. In order for you to hear the one you agree with you would have to listen to many you didn't agree with, a huge waste of time for you. And what of the atheists in the group who want to hear none of them at all, you can't have an atheist prayer can you? No, the best answer is to have none at all. Is it really necessary to have a prayer before any of these meetings?  

[Victoria of Gallifrey]

Jhan Tikanu

SoS Sailor Venus

I mean, don't require that everyone participate and problem solved, right?

The problem is that I went to the meeting for whatever the meeting is supposed to be about, and now I am a captive audience forced to listen to a prayer I, as a Satanist, Hindu, Jew, etc have no interest in and am opposed to hearing.

When I go to a governmental meeting, I expect no prayer to be included. Why should the views of any particular religion be forced to be endured by those who disagree with them? I know that most here are in an area populated mainly by Christians, so how would you like a meeting opened with a Muslim prayer? Not so much. So now the idea of rotating religions for the opening invocation. In order for you to hear the one you agree with you would have to listen to many you didn't agree with, a huge waste of time for you. And what of the atheists in the group who want to hear none of them at all, you can't have an atheist prayer can you? No, the best answer is to have none at all. Is it really necessary to have a prayer before any of these meetings?

You have a good point and one I think I overlooked. On one hand I like the idea of having a different lead to prayer, as the Muslim one you mentioned. I would not be opposed to the idea. But further, your point brings that to a potential halt with consideration towards atheists. So perhaps it is best kept in personal circles.  

[SilentVex]

I really see two viable options.

1. No public prayer in a non-religious meeting. The simple and easy option.

2. Being the broken record here, but a rotation of prayer. For every religion possible have a prayer for one meeting, then change it to the next. When it comes to Atheism's turn, just don't have a prayer and get right to business. Then when everyone's had a turn, repeat. This is the hard, difficult, and likely to offend/disinterest many at the meetings. But it's far better than forcing a single prayer on everyone.  

[chessiejo]

SilentVex

I really see two viable options.

1. No public prayer in a non-religious meeting. The simple and easy option.

2. Being the broken record here, but a rotation of prayer. For every religion possible have a prayer for one meeting, then change it to the next. When it comes to Atheism's turn, just don't have a prayer and get right to business. Then when everyone's had a turn, repeat. This is the hard, difficult, and likely to offend/disinterest many at the meetings. But it's far better than forcing a single prayer on everyone.

a moment of silence for the atheists, perhaps?

it might even be kind of amusing. how could they object?  

[SilentVex]

chessiejo

SilentVex

I really see two viable options.

1. No public prayer in a non-religious meeting. The simple and easy option.

2. Being the broken record here, but a rotation of prayer. For every religion possible have a prayer for one meeting, then change it to the next. When it comes to Atheism's turn, just don't have a prayer and get right to business. Then when everyone's had a turn, repeat. This is the hard, difficult, and likely to offend/disinterest many at the meetings. But it's far better than forcing a single prayer on everyone.

a moment of silence for the atheists, perhaps?

it might even be kind of amusing. how could they object?

Moments of silence are, for lack of a better term, a sort of sacred thing. For like, hero's, deaths, tragedies, etc. I hate to use the tern sacred in reference to anything to do with atheists, but I cannot think of a better one.  

[chessiejo]

on an unrelated note:

i was visiting a home in the rural Netherlands, and was eating lunch at their table,

(they had fresh bread a butter covered with chocolate shavings! woo hoo!)

they bowed their heads silently, before eating, so i did too.

i thought they must be very very religious because this went on a long time without anybody saying anything,

finally i looked up and saw that everybody was looking at me, waiting for me to finish my silent prayer!

afterwards, my host said that i must be very, very religious!  

[Tiina Brown]

chessiejo

our county, Essex, in NY, is having a big hubbub because the county executive single handedly stopped having prayer before each meeting.

he says it was illegal and he is avoiding lawsuits.

his opponents say maybe, but he should have talked it over with the commissioners first, before acting. so they are not in favor of the prayers necessarily, but just in the way the thing was handled.

the same guy, a Roman Catholic deacon, said the prayers every month. There was no rotation between different groups.

i know some people find it offensive; i personally do not, but the official prayers of someone with whom I have some serious differences may not benefit me anyway.

so how do you feel about this?

Your county executive did the right thing as I see it,
Voicing it in a more careful manner might have gotten ignored, and for all I know, it might even have been tried before, and led to nothing.  

[Lumanny the Space Jew]

People think of the First Amendment's protection of religion as just the Free Exercise clause about not impeding the practice of religion. But equally important is the Establishment clause that the government cannot endorse or align itself with any one religion, even if it's seemingly harmless; that's a slippery slope into trouble.