Where Do You Think Satanism Falls?

[x-MistressMurder-x]

I was in the Pagan Beliefs subforum yesterday evening, and I saw a thread on Satanism... It seemed like everyone was saying that the thread belonged elsewhere. But where does it fall? We are not Christians, and we do not worship the Christian devil. For the most part, most of us modern day Satanists are atheistic rather than spiritual. Tell me, where does it fall? Or perhaps it should have it's own subforum? I honestly believe it's proper place is Pagan Beliefs, where I saw that thread, but that is because I am NeoPagan Satanist. I share views with both Wicca and Satanism.  

[Yeah_Tony]

Satanism is not a religion, but instead it is a group dedicated to oppose religion through "Satanic Worship" and rituals. So it falls under the label of "Cult." There are less than 10,000 Satanists today in the U.S. ( I personally believe that satanist individuals have low self-esteems and join the cult to feel a sense of belonging. Also, they feel powerful or capable of conveying fear to Christians, however i will refer back to my point; They are this way NOT because they love Satan or believe they are truly evil, but instead they are a reflection of their own insecurities and low self-worth in modern society.) ( So the purpose of Satanism is very infantile and mirrors an individual's internal problems to adjust or live happily.) So I will say that a Satanist is not a positive person, nor lives a open and happy life, because his or her set of beliefs contradict happiness by worshiping a diety that stands for destruction and hopelessness. Therefore a satanist is a depressed, hopeless, pessimistic, and vulnerable to his or herself through psychological mechanisms that prevent a healthy mind.

Wicca on the other hand is a religion because its beliefs are based on nature and elements. Therefore Wiccans are not opposed to any particular group, rather they deepen their spirituality by respecting and developing a good relationship to the natural environment.  

[x-MistressMurder-x]

Ouch. That came across a bit harsh. I don't know if I should take offense to that. confused

 

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Qianlong

Satanism is not a religion, but instead it is a group dedicated to oppose religion through "Satanic Worship" and rituals. So it falls under the label of "Cult."

All religions fall under the label of "cult". In what way are you using this word, that Satanism would apply but not other religions? The common negative use of the word "cult" does not apply to Satanism because Satanism stresses individuality and reliance on the self.

Also, I'm not aware of any Satanist that actually worships Satan. Those that are theistic seem to worship gods of other pantheons.

Quote:

( I personally believe that satanist individuals have low self-esteems and join the cult to feel a sense of belonging. Also, they feel powerful or capable of conveying fear to Christians, however i will refer back to my point; They are this way NOT because they love Satan or believe they are truly evil, but instead they are a reflection of their own insecurities and low self-worth in modern society.)

Actually I don't think most Satanists give a s**t about Christians, let alone want to "convey fear" to them. If you are a Christian and feel afraid of Satanists, I think that's your problem, not theirs.

Quote:

So the purpose of Satanism is very infantile and mirrors an individual's internal problems to adjust or live happily.) So I will say that a Satanist is not a positive person, nor lives a open and happy life, because his or her set of beliefs contradict happiness by worshiping a diety that stands for destruction and hopelessness.

Were you not paying attention to the OP? most Satanists are atheists. They don't worship anyone. Now one might say Satanism is a bit childish, and some aspects of it reflect that, and indeed there are many Satanists who are childish people. But Satanism as a whole, if you move away from the anti-sheep aspects, is about being oneself, loving one's family, protecting oneself and one's home, and I think to some extent about honour. Satanists for the most part are polite individuals who will extend to you the same level of respect you extend to them. And I think most of them live as happily as anyone else does, really.

Quote:

Wicca on the other hand is a religion because its beliefs are based on nature and elements. Therefore Wiccans are not opposed to any particular group, rather they deepen their spirituality by respecting and developing a good relationship to the natural environment.

Wiccans worship two deities. Their beliefs aren't based on nature and the elements; for the most part it's a fertility-based mystery religion, although the elements to play a part in their ritual form, and possibly in other ways that we non-initiates do not have access to. I don't see why Wicca is more of a religion than Satanism, unless you think theism is a defining element of a religion.

OP: Satanism fits under "Pagan" because it's non-Abrahamic, essentially, even if it couches itself in Abrahamic imagery. (Of course it's mostly Medieval imagery, in fact, as it's fairly clear biblically that Satan is an agent of YHWH.) At any rate, many people who are techically Pagan don't wish to identify by that term (for example, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists etc may not feel comfortable with it) and so it's mostly an opt-in term. You can self-define as a Pagan, or not. Satanism could go either way, so it's mostly up to the individual whether they consider it Pagan or not. The thread is in there, but it could go other places, such as the atheism subforum.  

[Tiina Brown]

I'll try to answer the question, along with summming up Sanguina Cruenta's points on it that i feel is fully valid to the question in case:

One:
Since there are both theist(non-abramic) and atheist Satanists, and since Pagan actually allows for some atheism, Satanists Do belong under "pagan".

Two:
However, it may seem like it doesn't belong there, because of its undoubtedly "Christian roots", that it actually opposes.
Then, there is actually the "i don't want to associate with those ones", that sadly is present, even within Paganism.

Three:
Let's point out, that regular, ordered Satanism, actually follows the so called "golden rule" better than a lot "Christians".
Why?
Their variant of "do unto others" is not "first" as some may think, but rather "don't give others unneccesary reason to mess with you .... (but if they do mess with you, then all bets are off) "

... However, there are some who call themselves "Satanists" as well as devil worshippers. Perhaps they are just trolls though ...

Four:
If Satanism should be disqualified from the "Pagan" definition due to the Christian semi-connection, then so should Voudu(voodoo) .... or however it is spelled, due to it's obvious Christian connections.
...... But i bet noone complains about that, hm?  

[Yeah_Tony]

Sanguina Cruenta

Qianlong

Satanism is not a religion, but instead it is a group dedicated to oppose religion through "Satanic Worship" and rituals. So it falls under the label of "Cult."

All religions fall under the label of "cult". In what way are you using this word, that Satanism would apply but not other religions? The common negative use of the word "cult" does not apply to Satanism because Satanism stresses individuality and reliance on the self.

Also, I'm not aware of any Satanist that actually worships Satan. Those that are theistic seem to worship gods of other pantheons.

Quote:

( I personally believe that satanist individuals have low self-esteems and join the cult to feel a sense of belonging. Also, they feel powerful or capable of conveying fear to Christians, however i will refer back to my point; They are this way NOT because they love Satan or believe they are truly evil, but instead they are a reflection of their own insecurities and low self-worth in modern society.)

Actually I don't think most Satanists give a s**t about Christians, let alone want to "convey fear" to them. If you are a Christian and feel afraid of Satanists, I think that's your problem, not theirs.

Quote:

So the purpose of Satanism is very infantile and mirrors an individual's internal problems to adjust or live happily.) So I will say that a Satanist is not a positive person, nor lives a open and happy life, because his or her set of beliefs contradict happiness by worshiping a diety that stands for destruction and hopelessness.

Were you not paying attention to the OP? most Satanists are atheists. They don't worship anyone. Now one might say Satanism is a bit childish, and some aspects of it reflect that, and indeed there are many Satanists who are childish people. But Satanism as a whole, if you move away from the anti-sheep aspects, is about being oneself, loving one's family, protecting oneself and one's home, and I think to some extent about honour. Satanists for the most part are polite individuals who will extend to you the same level of respect you extend to them. And I think most of them live as happily as anyone else does, really.

Quote:

Wicca on the other hand is a religion because its beliefs are based on nature and elements. Therefore Wiccans are not opposed to any particular group, rather they deepen their spirituality by respecting and developing a good relationship to the natural environment.

Wiccans worship two deities. Their beliefs aren't based on nature and the elements; for the most part it's a fertility-based mystery religion, although the elements to play a part in their ritual form, and possibly in other ways that we non-initiates do not have access to. I don't see why Wicca is more of a religion than Satanism, unless you think theism is a defining element of a religion.

OP: Satanism fits under "Pagan" because it's non-Abrahamic, essentially, even if it couches itself in Abrahamic imagery. (Of course it's mostly Medieval imagery, in fact, as it's fairly clear biblically that Satan is an agent of YHWH.) At any rate, many people who are techically Pagan don't wish to identify by that term (for example, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists etc may not feel comfortable with it) and so it's mostly an opt-in term. You can self-define as a Pagan, or not. Satanism could go either way, so it's mostly up to the individual whether they consider it Pagan or not. The thread is in there, but it could go other places, such as the atheism subforum.

If that is the case why would they go on labeling themselves "satanist" if they are atheist. Satan represents malignity, to say it is a cultivation of the self is a contradiction to their label. Look up at Anton La Vey, he clearly lead a group that dedicated a worship to Satan. It is misleading to identify oneself a Satanist. It sends the wrong message to the Major religions of Islam Christianity and Judaism.  

[Yeah_Tony]

Tiina Brown

I'll try to answer the question, along with summming up Sanguina Cruenta's points on it that i feel is fully valid to the question in case:

One:
Since there are both theist(non-abramic) and atheist Satanists, and since Pagan actually allows for some atheism, Satanists Do belong under "pagan".

Two:
However, it may seem like it doesn't belong there, because of its undoubtedly "Christian roots", that it actually opposes.
Then, there is actually the "i don't want to associate with those ones", that sadly is present, even within Paganism.

Three:
Let's point out, that regular, ordered Satanism, actually follows the so called "golden rule" better than a lot "Christians".
Why?
Their variant of "do unto others" is not "first" as some may think, but rather "don't give others unneccesary reason to mess with you .... (but if they do mess with you, then all bets are off) "

... However, there are some who call themselves "Satanists" as well as devil worshippers. Perhaps they are just trolls though ...

Four:
If Satanism should be disqualified from the "Pagan" definition due to the Christian semi-connection, then so should Voudu(voodoo) .... or however it is spelled, due to it's obvious Christian connections.
...... But i bet noone complains about that, hm?

Voodoo does not sound as provocative as the main enemy of Christians Satan. You should not generalize on Golden rules either, that is a very bad mistake. However I do agree with on one thing. There are devil worshipers that call themselves satanists, this can easily be confused with the other atheists. I'm complaining about the name, they should simply change it and everything is fine, because it is already taken by another group who is completely different than the religion being discussed.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Qianlong

If that is the case why would they go on labeling themselves "satanist" if they are atheist. Satan represents malignity, to say it is a cultivation of the self is a contradiction to their label. Look up at Anton La Vey, he clearly lead a group that dedicated a worship to Satan. It is misleading to identify oneself a Satanist. It sends the wrong message to the Major religions of Islam Christianity and Judaism.

If you honestly think that, you didn't understand the book. Go back and read Anton LaVey again.

They are using the mediaeval and renaissance concept of Satan as fallen angel and representative of humanity. Go and read Paradise Lost. If you don't identify with Satan in that book, says one Terry Pratchett, you are not human.
They are using Satan as a figurehead of opposition to biblical rules and Christian values they consider anathema to a full and happy life as a human. Where god represents abstinence, Satan represents indulgence. Where god represents obedience, Satan represents questioning authority. They take opposition to many Christian values and believe in pleasure for its own sake (and without apology) and personal responsibility.

It is a metaphor. If you want to complain about appropriation of an entity from your religion as a symbol for theirs, go right ahead. Don't misunderstand the religion in order to malign it and its followers. Educate yourself.

I imagine he picked the name partially to be inflammatory and to draw attention to himself, of course. It may well have given you the wrong impression, it got your attention. However that attention is worth nothing if you don't actually look into the religion and understand what its values are, which LaVey may not have anticipated. It may send the wrong message. This is a problem.  

[Tiina Brown]

Qianlong

Tiina Brown

I'll try to answer the question, along with summming up Sanguina Cruenta's points on it that i feel is fully valid to the question in case:

One:
Since there are both theist(non-abramic) and atheist Satanists, and since Pagan actually allows for some atheism, Satanists Do belong under "pagan".

Two:
However, it may seem like it doesn't belong there, because of its undoubtedly "Christian roots", that it actually opposes.
Then, there is actually the "i don't want to associate with those ones", that sadly is present, even within Paganism.

Three:
Let's point out, that regular, ordered Satanism, actually follows the so called "golden rule" better than a lot "Christians".
Why?
Their variant of "do unto others" is not "first" as some may think, but rather "don't give others unneccesary reason to mess with you .... (but if they do mess with you, then all bets are off) "

... However, there are some who call themselves "Satanists" as well as devil worshippers. Perhaps they are just trolls though ...

Four:
If Satanism should be disqualified from the "Pagan" definition due to the Christian semi-connection, then so should Voudu(voodoo) .... or however it is spelled, due to it's obvious Christian connections.
...... But i bet noone complains about that, hm?

Voodoo does not sound as provocative as the main enemy of Christians Satan. You should not generalize on Golden rules either, that is a very bad mistake. However I do agree with on one thing. There are devil worshipers that call themselves satanists, this can easily be confused with the other atheists. I'm complaining about the name, they should simply change it and everything is fine, because it is already taken by another group who is completely different than the religion being discussed.

Me generalize on The Golden Rule?
I described the situation, and if you misread or ignored that description, it is not my fault.

Sanguina Cruenta is correct, "Satan" in the case of oficcial satanists is used, rather as a very strong metaphor, for questioning the christian church, that was very much an authority once ... and in some places, still is.  

[Tiina Brown]

Sanguina Cruenta

Qianlong

If that is the case why would they go on labeling themselves "satanist" if they are atheist. Satan represents malignity, to say it is a cultivation of the self is a contradiction to their label. Look up at Anton La Vey, he clearly lead a group that dedicated a worship to Satan. It is misleading to identify oneself a Satanist. It sends the wrong message to the Major religions of Islam Christianity and Judaism.

If you honestly think that, you didn't understand the book. Go back and read Anton LaVey again.

They are using the mediaeval and renaissance concept of Satan as fallen angel and representative of humanity. Go and read Paradise Lost. If you don't identify with Satan in that book, says one Terry Pratchett, you are not human.
They are using Satan as a figurehead of opposition to biblical rules and Christian values they consider anathema to a full and happy life as a human. Where god represents abstinence, Satan represents indulgence. Where god represents obedience, Satan represents questioning authority. They take opposition to many Christian values and believe in pleasure for its own sake (and without apology) and personal responsibility.

It is a metaphor. If you want to complain about appropriation of an entity from your religion as a symbol for theirs, go right ahead. Don't misunderstand the religion in order to malign it and its followers. Educate yourself.

I imagine he picked the name partially to be inflammatory and to draw attention to himself, of course. It may well have given you the wrong impression, it got your attention. However that attention is worth nothing if you don't actually look into the religion and understand what its values are, which LaVey may not have anticipated. It may send the wrong message. This is a problem.

.... I think he did anticipate it, but he didn't care, because people that wasn't ready to question christianity at the time, was not people he was interested in making understand, anyway.

Personally, with the risk of swearing in the church, i think God created both Satanism and Atheism, to get humanity to start taking responsibility, while also allow for living out pleasures, that really isn't sins.
... But then, that is my view ...  

[Yeah_Tony]

Tiina Brown

Sanguina Cruenta

Qianlong

If that is the case why would they go on labeling themselves "satanist" if they are atheist. Satan represents malignity, to say it is a cultivation of the self is a contradiction to their label. Look up at Anton La Vey, he clearly lead a group that dedicated a worship to Satan. It is misleading to identify oneself a Satanist. It sends the wrong message to the Major religions of Islam Christianity and Judaism.

If you honestly think that, you didn't understand the book. Go back and read Anton LaVey again.

They are using the mediaeval and renaissance concept of Satan as fallen angel and representative of humanity. Go and read Paradise Lost. If you don't identify with Satan in that book, says one Terry Pratchett, you are not human.
They are using Satan as a figurehead of opposition to biblical rules and Christian values they consider anathema to a full and happy life as a human. Where god represents abstinence, Satan represents indulgence. Where god represents obedience, Satan represents questioning authority. They take opposition to many Christian values and believe in pleasure for its own sake (and without apology) and personal responsibility.

It is a metaphor. If you want to complain about appropriation of an entity from your religion as a symbol for theirs, go right ahead. Don't misunderstand the religion in order to malign it and its followers. Educate yourself.

I imagine he picked the name partially to be inflammatory and to draw attention to himself, of course. It may well have given you the wrong impression, it got your attention. However that attention is worth nothing if you don't actually look into the religion and understand what its values are, which LaVey may not have anticipated. It may send the wrong message. This is a problem.

.... I think he did anticipate it, but he didn't care, because people that wasn't ready to question christianity at the time, was not people he was interested in making understand, anyway.

Personally, with the risk of swearing in the church, i think God created both Satanism and Atheism, to get humanity to start taking responsibility, while also allow for living out pleasures, that really isn't sins.
... But then, that is my view ...

Satanism is a misleading label for an atheist ok.

The good news is that people can start their own religions, even though they are controversial. My question to you people is why label yourselves that? if the name is already taken by La Vey. I do not comprehend these religions as much because I honestly don't give a beep. And my final question is even though there are a mixture of beliefs here, why not just give it another name?

And I will disagree with La Vey in creating a new definition for Satan because it is provocative to many religions. however I agree with him in having the right to exercise his freedom of religion. ( even though in my opinion the whole satan thing is just plain stupid. )  

[Tiina Brown]

Qianlong

Satanism is a misleading label for an atheist ok.

The good news is that people can start their own religions, even though they are controversial. My question to you people is why label yourselves that? if the name is already taken by La Vey. I do not comprehend these religions as much because I honestly don't give a beep. And my final question is even though there are a mixture of beliefs here, why not just give it another name?

And I will disagree with La Vey in creating a new definition for Satan because it is provocative to many religions. however I agree with him in having the right to exercise his freedom of religion. ( even though in my opinion the whole satan thing is just plain stupid. )

Not all Satanists are atheists, and those who aren't, don't follow Satan, but Greek, Nordic, Celtic, or any other mythology.
Ok?

And who said it was a new definition for satan?
It was far fron a "new" idea to define Satan as opposing God.
......
It was a new idea, though, to turn the tables, and see God (actually, Christianity) as bad/evil/wrong, and Satan(actually, Atheism and alleged sinfulness) as good/right/proper.  

[Yeah_Tony]

Tiina Brown

Qianlong

Satanism is a misleading label for an atheist ok.

The good news is that people can start their own religions, even though they are controversial. My question to you people is why label yourselves that? if the name is already taken by La Vey. I do not comprehend these religions as much because I honestly don't give a beep. And my final question is even though there are a mixture of beliefs here, why not just give it another name?

And I will disagree with La Vey in creating a new definition for Satan because it is provocative to many religions. however I agree with him in having the right to exercise his freedom of religion. ( even though in my opinion the whole satan thing is just plain stupid. )

Not all Satanists are atheists, and those who aren't, don't follow Satan, but Greek, Nordic, Celtic, or any other mythology.
Ok?

And who said it was a new definition for satan?
It was far fron a "new" idea to define Satan as opposing God.
......
It was a new idea, though, to turn the tables, and see God (actually, Christianity) as bad/evil/wrong, and Satan(actually, Atheism and alleged sinfulness) as good/right/proper.

Forgive my unpleasantness, but that is so ridiculously foolish. How can you take that seriously at all? ( Well at least for me. I am simply expressing what I think.) The notion of flip flopping is so infantile. Gee I can make my own religion and might as well Turn Buddha into a despicable creature. To me it makes no sense to even take a so called religion like that serious.

But that is what makes the new world so awesome. Everyone can express themselves freely and worship whatever they like. Such as the Spaghetti monster Church in Austria lol.  

[CalledTheRaven]

Oh dear. I'm going to hope that you understand the Flying Spaghetti Monster at least?