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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:43 pm
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If you're a Christian, then you should definetly be going to church. Being a Christian and not going to church is not natural. The Bible talks about the importance of fellowshipping with other believers. How are we supposed to grow in Christ if we do not take part with the other believers?
If you don't like the church you're in, then leave it. I did, and it did a world of good for me. I know not everybody has the choice to just leave right away. Perhaps some of your parents still make you go to the church they want. In my case, I had to wait about six months for my church volunteer committments to be up.
There's no point in going to a church you're not liking or benefitting from. Even in a place as small as I live, there are pleanty of churches, so chances are, there's probably lots of churches around where you are too. Go someplace else one week. If you like it, that's great; but take the next week to try another church. Keep searching around until you've found the church for you. Obviously, before you get too involved with a church, you should really check their statement of faith. If you notice right away that they believe something that you know is wrong, get away before you get any more involved, unless you know for sure God's called you there to make a difference.
If you (and I say this as a general term, not specific to anyone) find that you can't find a church that suits you, then I'd seriously question just what exactly are you looking for. You'll never find the perfect church, and if you do, leave it. You'll ruin it.
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:45 pm
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Early followers of Christ met in homes. Persecuted Roman Christians met in homes. People in closed countries today meet in homes. There is no verse in the Bible that says you have to meet in a building a certain size with a certain number of members. The important thing is Christ.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Yes, the Bible talks about fellowship. From the first post, I gather that these groups are having fellowship, just not in an official church building, right? Sounds fine to me. In fact, it sounds better than churches that are built around creating a self-sustaining community, complete with coffeehouse, bookstore, skating park. Fellowship is important, but so is learning about the Word and focusing on God.
~Gilwen
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:16 am
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Gilwen Early followers of Christ met in homes. Persecuted Roman Christians met in homes. People in closed countries today meet in homes. There is no verse in the Bible that says you have to meet in a building a certain size with a certain number of members. The important thing is Christ.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."Yes, the Bible talks about fellowship. From the first post, I gather that these groups are having fellowship, just not in an official church building, right? Sounds fine to me. In fact, it sounds better than churches that are built around creating a self-sustaining community, complete with coffeehouse, bookstore, skating park. Fellowship is important, but so is learning about the Word and focusing on God. ~Gilwen
Thank you so much. I was afraid to post any thing here because a lot of people seem to misunderstand the word 'church' -- I think I even used it to mean the buildings because that's how people understand it. sweatdrop
Yes, we are having fellowship. Sometimes in unconventional ways, but we also try to simply meet with other Christians. Unfortunately the last home church I was in kicked us out at the first disagreement-- and believe me, I was not all in their face about how they were wrong, I just said that I disagreed and I would look into it more. Before that it was great because we discussed the Bible etc., what you would hope was the minimum requirement for any fellowship. wink
But right now we are not meeting with any Christians in person, just our family. Unless you count the Christian forum we just started up which is growing much faster than I expected. Personally I count that as fellowship because the people there seem very caring and knowledgeable, not to mention enthusiastic about being Christian-- something that I tend to NOT see in the "churches" around here. They also make me think. cool Actually if you are interested in the forum you can PM me and I'll give you the link!* heart heart
@hot_wheels:
As far as finding the perfect church and ruining it, that was a very immature thing to say. If there was such a thing as a perfect church, I would hope every one would find it! Because the perfect church could not be ruined by people trying to join and fellowship. Neither could it be destroyed by messengers of Satan going in there just to disrupt and mislead. You sound like you think church is just about avoiding conflict! Buddy, you may have just been feeling sarcastic but it still says a lot about how you think and the problem I have with most of the churches around here.
On the other hand you did understand some of what I was saying when you talked about leaving churches that are bad for you. The churches around here have beliefs I just cannot agree with, like the subjugation of women and the Tithe. IMHO tithing at least almost makes sense, and some churches are very nice about not "forcing" you to tithe rolleyes but the money tends to go to things that are just not as important as what you could be doing in street ministries. And YES you could be doing things like that even if you are young, if the people around you were more open to and supportive of the idea. Getting on a tangent here but I hope that wherever you go you are doing some sort of outreach. Agreeing on every thing is not my goal-- that's impossible-- but some things feel too important to put up with for long and often they have been a symptom of worse beliefs we find out about later.
I am just looking for people who will meet me in coffee shops, my home, the park, any where for a bit of fellowship. Talking about Bible and/or what we could do to make the world a better place for God. If it were in a church building I would still go, but probably not every week because of the disappointment I expect and the fact that I am already busy doing things for God outside of "Church". On the other hand if it were something like the perfect church I'd hopefully discern that and start going as often as a pleased. 4laugh But so far I have not seen a church that understands the way early followers met and the way they still meet in persecuted countries, not to mention the other things I sometimes disagree with them on. I've met people like that, but most of them are in another state that I met over the interweb.
Hopefully you understand more what I am talking about now and can answer some more of my questions. smile
----
* check that, I put the link in my signature but if you want to ask me about it you can still PM me. |
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:24 pm
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 am
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:26 am
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razorgod Every Church I have gone to in the last 5 years, has built sermons around profit. I can understand the occasional sermon on the idea of tithing in faith...but when it becomes the only sermon- that's it for me.
As far as I'm concerned tithing isn't even scriptual, but if it was that would still be ridiculous!
Quote: And aside from that, it seems like every church I have been to in the last few years has been built on gossip.
I noticed that too, although I can only speak personally for the youth groups/younger generation. That's not a new thing either. One of the churches my parents left before I was born was because of terrible gossip against them there. One of the youth groups I was involved in (the last one in the IC that I've attended!) acused me of "teasing" my boyfriend at the time that I'd met there. Worse came when his pycho parents, who were bigshots in the church and from whom we had gotten PERMISSION from to start dating, decided they hated me. After persecuting me, calling us to tell me not to come back, they found out that his father was sleeping around with another woman. Boy did they move to Texas fast.
The churches I've seen are so steeped in gossip and yet the people they hold up on a pedastal are usually the ones who need to be called out! I wasn't doing any thing wrong-- we were boyfriend & girlfriend in practically name only. I could tell a lot of other stories I've heard from other people, but too many at once makes me angry. xd
Quote: I'm all for fellowship outside of an organized church....which is usually only as Godly as the man/men who run it.
That is true too. In smaller fellowships it is easier to feel accountable and to start a real fellowship-- a friendship-- with the other people. Plenty of home churches have their problems too, but ironically most of the problems I have run into stem from whatever denomination those people were part of before they left the IC. |
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:29 pm
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Penden As far as finding the perfect church and ruining it, that was a very immature thing to say. If there was such a thing as a perfect church, I would hope every one would find it! Because the perfect church could not be ruined by people trying to join and fellowship. Neither could it be destroyed by messengers of Satan going in there just to disrupt and mislead.
Yeah...but when I said that, I was only joking.
Penden The churches around here have beliefs I just cannot agree with, like the subjugation of women and the Tithe.
What the heck is that all about?
Penden IMHO tithing at least almost makes sense
God commands us to tithe. It's not really an issue. |
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:49 pm
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hot_wheels_turbo_racing Penden IMHO tithing at least almost makes sense God commands us to tithe. It's not really an issue.
The point of tithing is as an offering to God. In the old testament, it was a symbol of devotion to Him. Now, we are not required to live under the symbolic law, but instead to live for God entirely.
Don't commit adultery? Jesus says don't even think about it.
Sacrifice a lamb? Jesus was the sacrifice.
The rules were different after He came, regarding the laws of Moses. The moral laws became more strict as Jesus expected us to keep our minds pure as well as our bodies, and the symbolic laws were fulfilled by Him.
The old traditions served an important purpose before Christ, but now we are not expected to pay a mere 10% to the church. We're expected to devote our entire lives to God.
Mark 12:41-44 (I think)
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
The widow gave EVERYTHING she had (money-wise) to God. This does not mean we should give all of our money to Him, but the parable illustrates this point: How much should we give to God? What can we give Him that isn't already His? We must give Him our devotion, not our paycheck. To obey is better than sacrifice.
I personally think it's good to support your church if their beliefs are Biblical, give to the poor, and be unselfish with your money, but I agree: sermons that revolve around tithing and churches' appeals for money are disgusting.
~Gilwen |
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:13 pm
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In different instances in the Bible the tithe was to go towards, for instance, a celebration when every one went to Jerusalem. Sometimes the money was just for that, sometimes to help support the Levites, and sometimes for the poor.
Quote: Deuteronomy 14 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
You see? Here the tithe is actually used and eaten by yourself except for on special years, in a celebration that we no longer recognize.
In Deut. 26 you can see why the tithe was special for the Jews, and what it meant. Here again the tithe is only given every three years and to the Levites, who no longer exist because we no longer observe old Jewish law (as well as to the poor).
And why did it go to the Levites?
Quote: Numbers 18:21 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 21 "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.
Quote: Numbers 18:24 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.'
Does your paid pastor have no inheritance?
And you'll notice that since the tithe is for the poor, the poor really shouldn't be giving tithe. Most churches I know preach and preach tithe without making it clear that the poor are exempt. In fact, what they say is that the more you give the more you will recieve back from the LORD! Wow, that's wonderful! Too bad the church probably isn't going to help you in that area. Recieving back only works when it was the Lord's will that you give in the first place-- and don't get me wrong, my family has given to churches and recieved blessings, but as free will offerings not tithe.
And that's every third year that it goes to the poor-- the rest of the time, you eat it! Just as the Levites did when they recieved tithes that weren't going to the poor.
Quote: Deuteronomy 14:23 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
I don't see your precious tithe, which is no longer required, going to any thing like that.
This also makes me wonder how to expect to follow this old Jewish law:
Quote: Leviticus 27:30 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
From what land? Israel. Why? Because they were God's chosen people that he pretty much gave the land to after leading them away from Egypt. He said, 'this is my gift to you' and the tithe was their rememberance of that.
Also:
Quote: Nehemiah 10:38 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury.
Good luck following that one!
And finally, a tenth of the tenth was to go as an offering to the Lord, which I'm assuming means a burnt sacrifice.
Quote: Numbers 18:26 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) 26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering.
I hope that this brief look into how the old tithe system actually worked will help you realize why Jesus' coming was so freeing and salvation so complete through him. Even the Jews, after they lost their high priests (the Levites) and had only Rabbis left, decided that things like studying the Word could take the place of old Testament laws such as sacrificing animals. That's because our time is important to the Lord too!
This doesn't mean that you never give, but that you are given a greater responsibility to know when and who to give to through discernment and listening to the LORD/Holy Spirit. And it's not always money he wants you to give! So throw away your back-water 'my pastor told me so' beliefs-- or else show me why Jesus' sacrifice doesn't change this particular Jewish law. There are plenty of instances of free giving in the new testament, but I don't see any where where gentiles are told to tithe.
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:04 pm
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:32 pm
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Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:13 pm
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Theopneustos Cometh The Inquisitor I second this. The point of church is to keep Believers on the Path of Christ. If you can accomplish that without going to church, then more power to you. But, the Bible also says, "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25). After all, a burning log doesn't last long alone.
I totally agree, and I think Penden would too (if I may be so bold as to assume). I just don't think believers need to meet in a denominational church building to worship, read the Word, and hear a message from the Word from a leader. 3nodding |
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:13 am
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Gilwen Theopneustos Cometh The Inquisitor I second this. The point of church is to keep Believers on the Path of Christ. If you can accomplish that without going to church, then more power to you. But, the Bible also says, "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25). After all, a burning log doesn't last long alone. I totally agree, and I think Penden would too (if I may be so bold as to assume). I just don't think believers need to meet in a denominational church building to worship, read the Word, and hear a message from the Word from a leader. 3nodding
From a paid leader nonetheless.
Proper leadership seems to be confusing for some. Leadership is one of the gifts:
Quote: Romans 12 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
A gift that women are allowed to have! Judges 4 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:10 pm
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Reply
