Single Sex Mysteries, Pantheacon and Transphobia

[maenad nuri]

So, for those of you who have been living under a rock for the past week or so: At PantheaCon, a huge pagan con that I want to go to someday, there was a ritual that was advertised as a Lilith honoring, clothing optional ritual put on by the Amazonian Tribe for all women.

A man came up and was turned away. No biggies, several transwomen came and were turned away because they were not "femaled-bodied". Huge stink and criticism, and rightly so.

The next day, Come As You Are (the overreaching organization) and PantheaCon responded by opening up communication, hosting a panel, and letting voices be heard. A pretty appropriate response. CAYA has also issued an apology taking responsibility for the poor wording. This was also a really good apology, and not a "I'm sorry you were offended, but" sort.

In the internet aftermath, however, there has been a trickle of opinions coming from, well, noted pagan elder Z Budapest. By opinions, I mean:

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“This struggle has been going since the Women’s Mysteries first appeared. These individuals selfishly never think about the following: if women allow men to be incorporated into Dianic Mysteries,What will women own on their own? Nothing! Again! Transies who attack us only care about themselves. We women need our own culture, our own resourcing, our own traditions. You can tell these are men, They don’t care if women loose the Only tradition reclaimed after much research and practice ,the Dianic Tradition. Men simply want in. its their will. How dare us women not let them in and give away the ONLY spiritual home we have! Men want to worship the Goddess? Why not put in the WORK and create your own trads. The order of ATTIS for example,(dormant since the 4rth century) used to be for trans gendered people, also the castrata, men who castrated themselves to be more like the Goddess. Why are we the ONLY tradition they want? Go Gardnerian!Go Druid! Go Ecclectic! Filled with women, and men. They would fit fine. But if you claim to be one of us, you have to have sometimes in your life a womb, and overies and MOON bleed and not die. Women are born not made by men on operating tables.“

I'm not really sure where I want to go with this, so I'm just going to open it up. If you'd like to read more on this, The Wild Hunt has a great run-down.

I will be monitoring this topic after work for non-productive transphobic remarks. I don't think we have that problem here, but I wanted to throw that out too.

(I'm really wanting to do this as an M&R topic too, any help there would be appreciated)  

[Esiris]

I wonder if she would have welcomed a Transman- or if this bigotry is even across the board for her. stressed

I wonder if she accepts people who have dysfunctional uterus- does she check people's medical history for that s**t?  

[maenad nuri]

It should be important to note: Z Budapest isn't associated with this particular group. She just massively failed.  

[Collowrath]

I only know of this from a few vague mentions since I'm not part of any real pagan community. Alas, every time I think "Maybe I should get involved in the pagan scene," I see s**t like this and I suddenly feel really comfortable sticking with the Catholics. whee

I saw the post at The House of Vines, and I thought the quotes were embellished. I'm absolutely taken aback that they weren't at all. I mean, holy s**t.

To be honest, that rant (transies? seriously?) reads like it stems from a bottle of wine and a host of deep seated insecurities. Has Budapest responded to comments or anything about it?  

[kyndryana3]

I think this is a tricky topic, and it definitely sounds like it could have been handled better. I would have liked to have been able to read transcribes of the actual talks that took place later after the incident and hear what was said by both sides...one of the things I read about it was that part of the frustration was that people (both men and transgender females) had set aside time for the ritual and waited in line only to be turned away.

I also understand the point that some women are recovering from extremely traumatic experiences, at the hands of men, and being in a place they feel is safe (a women's circle that is only open to women and may include nudity) they would not feel comfortable with someone who outwardly appears male present.

I kinda think there are two issues at stake here: should people be allowed to exclude others based on (gender, body type, sexuality, whatever) from their rituals and was this particular ritual handled poorly in their dealing with people they were excluding.

People hold 'exclusive' rituals all the time. Rituals are held for people of a particular coven or path or of people of a particular rank or level within a coven. I've never seen anyone get upset about that...while I definitely feel that transgender women ARE women, I can also see how their presence might be detrimental at certain women's rituals.

If you are going to exclude someone from a (especially publically held) ritual, I think you need to be very clear as to who is being excluded (or what you must do to be included) and it should be handled as politely as possible. If they were only allowing women-born-women, they should have said so in their ritual description.

I would find it interesting though, to know if they would allow a pre-op FtM, or a post-op MtF..or do they exclude women-born-women who have been medially barren all their lives?  

[blindfaith^_^]

Budapest's quote raises a lot of questions in my mind. If I table the trans question and fluidity of genders for a moment (mostly because I don't know how to delve into the topic in a way that deeper or different from how previous posters already have phrased things) and just look at this as a bio man and bio woman comment, I'm still left wondering how can allowing a man to observe or participate in a ritual equate to that male stealing women's mysteries?

I know very little about either female or male only mystery faiths because spirituality isn't gender dependent in my world view but it seems to me that the mystery would be experienced based and something only the gender in question could access. If that is the case, then I don't see how allowing men to view a female mystery or allow women to view a male mystery would let that gender co-opt the essential truth. They could go through all the motions and never make the connection to the actual content. So in that view why not let anyone partake in a public ritual? You can not take something if you do not have the key to the vault so to speak.

I mean how can someone who identifies as male take something core to the female gender or vice a versa? Also why would one want to take a truth from a gender one doesn't identify with?

In regards to creating safe space within ritual and the world for women or for anyone, I can understand the importance of that. Likewise I can get that triggers don't jive with rational thinking and aren't always predicable. It seems to me though that specifics of who is welcome to the circle would help with this concern. Either by specifically stating people x are welcome or not welcome would let a person with a trauma in their background better decide if this ritual will work for them.

I think that announcing oneself as a safe space for x and that's why these restrictions are in place might better help people understand if one decides that those male bodied can't participate in clothing optional ritual. Ideally I think I'd like to see an ritual open to all who identify as gendered female and perhaps a smaller one specifically created as a safe space for women recovering from trauma who may be triggered through a larger group work.

Also, is the Dianic Tradition mystery religions sex or gender based? If gender based what are the requirements to be considered male or female in that sphere? I was working on the assumption that the tradition is gender based but if it's sex based I'm not sure where to go with several of my thoughts.  

[Esiris]

kyndryana3

I also understand the point that some women are recovering from extremely traumatic experiences, at the hands of men, and being in a place they feel is safe (a women's circle that is only open to women and may include nudity) they would not feel comfortable with someone who outwardly appears male present.

But they're talking about women being turned away, transwomen- and what about the women who have been assaulted by other women?

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People hold 'exclusive' rituals all the time. Rituals are held for people of a particular coven or path or of people of a particular rank or level within a coven. I've never seen anyone get upset about that...while I definitely feel that transgender women ARE women, I can also see how their presence might be detrimental at certain women's rituals.

I think that unless you have a group that requires in depth medical examinations to prove that the women in question have functioning uteri - that it's not a matter of ability to participate in the ritual, but a matter of transphobia and bigotry pretending to be feminism.


If an essence of a mystery has to do with physically having a womb- then maybe I could understand that, but you'd have to exclude any woman who had cancer and had hers removed.

blindfaith^_^

So in that view why not let anyone partake in a public ritual? You can not take something if you do not have the key to the vault so to speak.

I think there is something to be said for the ability to work together to a goal and not cluttering up the place with people who can't craft that- for the same reason, people who just want to do ritual because it's "fun and exciting" and not put that work in shouldn't be in some rituals either.

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I mean how can someone who identifies as male take something core to the female gender or vice a versa?

Maybe it isn't core- but something that is kept holy by not being exposed randomly to people who don't belong there who won't understand it and will try and make it something else?
I think you could find the answer to that by looking at why Wiccans don't allow those who aren't properly prepared into their circles.

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Also why would one want to take a truth from a gender one doesn't identify with?

The easy thing I see is curiosity.

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I think that announcing oneself as a safe space for x and that's why these restrictions are in place might better help people understand if one decides that those male bodied can't participate in clothing optional ritual.

This stuff shoots up a lot of red flags for me- it's still discrimatory, and not only that- but it also means that if it's about women healing from sexual trauma- transwomen who have been victimized are being told "You're not real- go sit in the corner and let those of us who bleed be spiritual" or worse- in a healing ritual for people who have been victimized, you're lumping transwomen who may have been hurt in the same way that they're basically as bad as their abusers because of the sex they are born as.

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Ideally I think I'd like to see an ritual open to all who identify as gendered female and perhaps a smaller one specifically created as a safe space for women recovering from trauma who may be triggered through a larger group work.

In that situation- should they welcome transwomen who have been hurt?

I want to add- I'm not trying to be rude. This is a very touchy subject for me, and if I come across as short or anything I am sorry.

I've been invited to rituals that were for one gender only. I've been in rituals that I was given funny looks at for using gender neutral pronouns. If someone wants a ritual to be about Man-Time or Woman-Time or something like that- I understand. Have fun!
If it's about Man-Time and someone is turned away because when they say "Man-Time" they mean "Straight Men" I don't see it as being any better than someone saying "Woman's Circle" and meaning "Birth Sexed as Female"- it's still discrimination based on something we don't choose.  

[too2sweet]

Esiris

If an essence of a mystery has to do with physically having a womb- then maybe I could understand that, but you'd have to exclude any woman who had cancer and had hers removed.

What I got from her statement was that as long as they'd had a womb at some point, then that was fine (of course I could be totally misreading it - my brain has not been functioning very well lately sweatdrop ). Not saying that there aren't larger issues, and that the way she worded it wasn't absolutely horrible, but my guess (and again I'm not all that familiar with Dianic witchcraft) is that there are certain experiences that are shared (that might be essential to how they work), and if one has never had those particular experiences, then it would be difficult for them to understand those particular "mysteries".  

[kyndryana3]

I don't think you are being rude or cross at all Esiris.

Esiris

But they're talking about women being turned away, transwomen- and what about the women who have been assaulted by other women?

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Definitely a good point. Honestly, I think that this type of recovery circle is best done privately, with people that the victim (or victims) feels safe with and approves personally. Having such a circle as a public thing, even if you only invite straight born-women, you still risk having someone who you don't know who might ridicule the victim(s) or try to place the blame on them.

 

[Esiris]

too2sweet

What I got from her statement was that as long as they'd had a womb at some point, then that was fine (of course I could be totally misreading it - my brain has not been functioning very well lately sweatdrop ). Not saying that there aren't larger issues, and that the way she worded it wasn't absolutely horrible, but my guess (and again I'm not all that familiar with Dianic witchcraft) is that there are certain experiences that are shared (that might be essential to how they work), and if one has never had those particular experiences, then it would be difficult for them to understand those particular "mysteries".

I guess what I am trying to explain is that in the intersexed community there are women who are born that are missing parts of their reproductive systems. They're women, and unless you're their partner and are having sex with them or their obgyn, no one would know that they were missing their uterus, cervix etc or any combination of those.

It's hard for me wrap my head around someone like that being turned away- unless the organizers get down between someone's legs and all, they wouldn't know. If those women had their womanhood stripped from them by excluding them- what would that mean?

It's even stranger to me that someone who isn't a woman, like me, would be welcomed with open arms before someone who is a woman.

And I don't even want to think about the nasty things they'd say about me. sweatdrop

kyndryana3

I don't think you are being rude or cross at all Esiris.

Thanks! That makes me feel less nervous.

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Definitely a good point. Honestly, I think that this type of recovery circle is best done privately, with people that the victim (or victims) feels safe with and approves personally. Having such a circle as a public thing, even if you only invite straight born-women, you still risk having someone who you don't know who might ridicule the victim(s) or try to place the blame on them.

I agree- I also think that this kind of thing is better left to people who are trained to handle it too. There are some great pagans who are trained psychologists and councilors who could work spiritually through a ritual while being able to handle any Mental Health red flags.

Your post made me think about something I have been struggling with for a while now (my situation is a bit different though)- what should people do when they're in a mutually triggering situation with another person?

For example- a victim of sexual violence is triggered by feeling exposed around someone who to them is "male", but a transwoman is triggered by transphobic remarks- no one wins in a situation like that, but how should it be handled?  

[too2sweet]

Esiris

too2sweet

What I got from her statement was that as long as they'd had a womb at some point, then that was fine (of course I could be totally misreading it - my brain has not been functioning very well lately sweatdrop ). Not saying that there aren't larger issues, and that the way she worded it wasn't absolutely horrible, but my guess (and again I'm not all that familiar with Dianic witchcraft) is that there are certain experiences that are shared (that might be essential to how they work), and if one has never had those particular experiences, then it would be difficult for them to understand those particular "mysteries".

I guess what I am trying to explain is that in the intersexed community there are women who are born that are missing parts of their reproductive systems. They're women, and unless you're their partner and are having sex with them or their obgyn, no one would know that they were missing their uterus, cervix etc or any combination of those.

It's hard for me wrap my head around someone like that being turned away- unless the organizers get down between someone's legs and all, they wouldn't know. If those women had their womanhood stripped from them by excluding them- what would that mean?

It's even stranger to me that someone who isn't a woman, like me, would be welcomed with open arms before someone who is a woman.

And I don't even want to think about the nasty things they'd say about me. sweatdrop

I agree that it doesn't make any sense, but without really knowing how one's having (or lack of having) such parts truly affects what they do, it's really hard to comment. I definitely see your point though, since it is impossible to tell without some sort of medical exam (unless one chooses to share that sort of information). Maybe they ask up front, and simply rely on people not lying about it.

I really don't think the whole community feels the same way that she does. It would be really interesting to see how other Dianic Elders have responded to what she said.  

[blindfaith^_^]

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I think there is something to be said for the ability to work together to a goal and not cluttering up the place with people who can't craft that- for the same reason, people who just want to do ritual because it's "fun and exciting" and not put that work in shouldn't be in some rituals either.

I can understand that. I'm just not sure where the line is when you're at a big pagan event. Some of it is to bring pagans together in ritual and faith but some of it has to be about teaching and sharing. We're a huge group with no unified thoughts or goals, if we're going to get together at a venue some teaching and sharing with people outside of the faith should be expected.

Doing the work is important, but showing people a glimpse of why the work is done and where one goes with something or why thing x is important needs to happen too. I'm not sure where the balance on that is or should be for a public ritual is. Personally I lean toward the more open teaching end when one is going to a large open conference, but I acknowledge that might not be correct at all or at least not correct for particular groups.

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Maybe it isn't core- but something that is kept holy by not being exposed randomly to people who don't belong there who won't understand it and will try and make it something else?
I think you could find the answer to that by looking at why Wiccans don't allow those who aren't properly prepared into their circles.

That clears up a lot of my confusion actually.

I'm still struggling with this being a public event though. I mean I've been to open circles held by Wiccans before where all were welcome. I know that they weren't performing a Wiccan rite, and that maybe (probably) what they were hosting wasn't even Wicca flavored, but they acknowledged the venue they were in and what was appropriate for that. It seems to me that some of the trouble with the circle event here was that the planners didn't think about the venue and audience of the event very well.

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Also why would one want to take a truth from a gender one doesn't identify with?

The easy thing I see is curiosity.

Maybe. I'd have never thought of that. It doesn't occur to me to be curious about something that since I'm not part of it and I can't become part of it I won't be able to get or understand. I stuff that I can explain in words but don't really understand in my mind, like physics really frustrate me so I can't imagine seeking something like that out.

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This stuff shoots up a lot of red flags for me- it's still discrimatory, and not only that- but it also means that if it's about women healing from sexual trauma- transwomen who have been victimized are being told "You're not real- go sit in the corner and let those of us who bleed be spiritual"

That's true and I didn't think on it from all the angles before posting but I do see how that wouldn't work and why now. Sorry.

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or worse- in a healing ritual for people who have been victimized, you're lumping transwomen who may have been hurt in the same way that they're basically as bad as their abusers because of the sex they are born as.

This particular line of argument I take some exception to.

Triggers aren't logical reasonable things that a person can shut off. I was in an abusive relationship and in my next relationship there were triggers that my partner had to respect like he couldn't put his arm around my shoulder. This wasn't because I thought he was like my abusive ex or because I thought he'd hurt me. I knew he wasn't "bad" or "wrong" or the "same" in any way. Knowing this logically did not in any way help. It was something I had to work through very slowly. That I couldn't handle certain things was not saying "you are the same as him" but rather "I have had a traumatic experience and I can't handle certain things on a normal or reasonable time table right now".

Being female gendered isn't related to the body. I accept that trans women are in all different places physically but still female in gender. I hear how this hesitancy to allow trans women who have bio-male parts can sound or feel to someone who's been dealing with the same rejection over and over as a rejection of who they are or as blaming them for something they had no part in.

I don't know how to reconcile the need to create a safe space for women who have been hurt and may/do have triggers to bio-male parts and welcoming all women who have been hurt to the circle is all. My first thought would be to have everyone wear clothes or for women who'd be triggered by nudity not go to a clothing optional rite. I leaned toward the concern one I know best, and I'm sorry that in my rush to address that one I didn't take the other into deeper consideration.

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I want to add- I'm not trying to be rude. This is a very touchy subject for me, and if I come across as short or anything I am sorry.

No need to worry, you've been polite and well spoken.  

[Esiris]

too2sweet

I agree that it doesn't make any sense, but without really knowing how one's having (or lack of having) such parts truly affects what they do, it's really hard to comment. I definitely see your point though, since it is impossible to tell without some sort of medical exam (unless one chooses to share that sort of information). Maybe they ask up front, and simply rely on people not lying about it.

I think if they asked- I'd be able to understand and accept it more. It'd be less like "You lied about having a car!" and more about "You need a car to go on this trip with us!" if it was done that way.

I wouldn't like it- but I'm wondering how much checking they do. If they ask about everyone, and not just transwomen, then it would seem less like transphobia and more like a requirement for participation.

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I really don't think the whole community feels the same way that she does. It would be really interesting to see how other Dianic Elders have responded to what she said.

I'm curious about that too.

blindfaith^_^

I can understand that. I'm just not sure where the line is when you're at a big pagan event. Some of it is to bring pagans together in ritual and faith but some of it has to be about teaching and sharing. We're a huge group with no unified thoughts or goals, if we're going to get together at a venue some teaching and sharing with people outside of the faith should be expected.

When I go to events- I've seen it done as "Open Rituals" and "Closed Rituals". Like it's possible for a coven to reserve some private space at some events to hold initiates only rituals- while other spaces are reserved for an "Everyone is welcome!" circle.

If Dianic Witches only want other Dianics there- I can understand that, but as soon as you invite a woman who isn't a Dianic, but turn away a transwoman- they loose credibility.

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Maybe. I'd have never thought of that. It doesn't occur to me to be curious about something that since I'm not part of it and I can't become part of it I won't be able to get or understand.

They might not realize they can't become a part of it- or they might view it as a chance to borrow and change things to fit them.

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That's true and I didn't think on it from all the angles before posting but I do see how that wouldn't work and why now. Sorry.

I wasn't offended or hurt- just echoing what some wonderful women I know would say.

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This particular line of argument I take some exception to.

Triggers aren't logical reasonable things that a person can shut off. I was in an abusive relationship and in my next relationship there were triggers that my partner had to respect like he couldn't put his arm around my shoulder. This wasn't because I thought he was like my abusive ex or because I thought he'd hurt me. I knew he wasn't "bad" or "wrong" or the "same" in any way. Knowing this logically did not in any way help. It was something I had to work through very slowly. That I couldn't handle certain things was not saying "you are the same as him" but rather "I have had a traumatic experience and I can't handle certain things on a normal or reasonable time table right now".

I'm sorry- I worded this badly.

If we're talking about "p***s=Men" as a trigger- that doesn't apply to all transwomen, which was what I was thinking about- since some transwomen choose to have sexual reassignment surgery.

I understand how that could be triggering.
It's hard for me to think this through- on the one hand, if someone who is pre-op or non-op wishes to participate, I think there is a certain amount of sense in avoiding disruption by not going nude.

We're forgetting an important part of this too- that GID comes with different levels of dysphoria. There's a good chance that a pre-op or non-op woman may have horrible reactions to having her genitalia exposed to strangers as well.

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I don't know how to reconcile the need to create a safe space for women who have been hurt and may/do have triggers to bio-male parts and welcoming all women who have been hurt to the circle is all. My first thought would be to have everyone wear clothes or for women who'd be triggered by nudity not go to a clothing optional rite. I leaned toward the concern one I know best, and I'm sorry that in my rush to address that one I didn't take the other into deeper consideration.

It's all alright- I think we're working out a lot of these thoughts together. 3nodding

Thank you for being so considerate.

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No need to worry, you've been polite and well spoken.

Thank you- you too.  

[Esiris]

The feedback I got from one person who was there was that it was a menses ritual- fine, transwomen don't have that as part of their life and so I can understand limiting participation to those who do, which would mean excluding women who have never had that.