Born into Sin?

[Someoneiknow]

Artto

Someoneiknow

Now you are implying that Christians can't apply logic to any situation, which is completely unfounded.

What?? Read my post again. I said Christians can't apply morality to God.

Someoneiknow

Not hell, not heaven, so they don't have to be saintly, but they aren't Satan's helpers, so they can be bad, just not too bad.

The whole point of Christianity is that everyone is inherently bad, and can never reach heaven, which is why we have Jesus as a loophole. And since it's not acts based, even someone like Hitler could easily get to heaven if he accepted Jesus before he died.

Maybe in the christian church you went to, but in my religion, salvation is only attained by 1. Christ, and 2. the works you perform on this earth. You can't just hope Christ will forgive everything in your life, you must actually work towards living Christlike.  

[Artto]

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Quote:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Although in John we have the following verse:

Quote:

1 John 2:4
If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar.

What I think this means, that even if you've done horrible things in your life, you can go to heaven if you have true faith.  

[Someoneiknow]

Artto

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Quote:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Although in John we have the following verse:

Quote:

1 John 2:4
If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar.

What I think this means, that even if you've done horrible things in your life, you can go to heaven if you have true faith.

James 2:18

Quote:

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

John 9:4

Quote:

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 6:28

Quote:

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Psalms 92:4

Quote:

For thou, Lord, hast made me glad through thy work: I will triumph in the works of thy hands.

James 2:22

Quote:

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Need I go on? Scripture is vague, but works are a sign of faith. Faith is a sign of true devotion unto God, and thus your salvation is valued upon faith. If you show no works unto God that prove you have faith unto God, you aren't automatically given salvation.  

[Artto]

None of these says works are a requirement, though. Also, why would you need to prove your faith to God. Doesn't God already know if you have faith or not?  

[divineseraph]

Artto

None of these says works are a requirement, though. Also, why would you need to prove your faith to God. Doesn't God already know if you have faith or not?

Actually, I think the bit by John you posted says the exact opposite of what you took it to mean. Unless that was sarcasm. It's saying, quite plainly, that even if you worship Jesus, if you are not adhering to his teaching and guidelines, then you are not truly a follower of Christ.  

[Someoneiknow]

Artto

None of these says works are a requirement, though. Also, why would you need to prove your faith to God. Doesn't God already know if you have faith or not?

You aren't proving God anything. God already knows the beginning to the end. But your works decide how "much" heaven you get, in easy terms.  

[Aakosir]

Someoneiknow

Aakosir

Someoneiknow

There is no such thing as being born into sin. It's a ridiculous idea to believe such because God would not be so mean and condescending. To be born into sin means that a child must confess with their mouth their sin and repent and not just be baptized according to scripture. If an infant dies, they are going to hell then. God would be unjust. How unfair for those children. And believing that that child would have been a severe sinner is not fair either. How would we know? How would a parent know? How would a parent want to remain Christian believing their child is in hell? The pure idea of it is so horrific and sad.

Well is God just? Are gods just? I think not. But it is not all Christians who believe this. It is mostly the smaller groups like Mormon and Amish. I believe someone already cleared up what baptism is for in Christianity.

And it's only Atheists who view God or gods as being unjust. Matter of perspective.

Um... What? That is confusing... Unless it is sarcasm.

But I'm Pagan and I do not view all of my gods as just.  

[Someoneiknow]

Aakosir

Someoneiknow

Aakosir

Someoneiknow

There is no such thing as being born into sin. It's a ridiculous idea to believe such because God would not be so mean and condescending. To be born into sin means that a child must confess with their mouth their sin and repent and not just be baptized according to scripture. If an infant dies, they are going to hell then. God would be unjust. How unfair for those children. And believing that that child would have been a severe sinner is not fair either. How would we know? How would a parent know? How would a parent want to remain Christian believing their child is in hell? The pure idea of it is so horrific and sad.

Well is God just? Are gods just? I think not. But it is not all Christians who believe this. It is mostly the smaller groups like Mormon and Amish. I believe someone already cleared up what baptism is for in Christianity.

And it's only Atheists who view God or gods as being unjust. Matter of perspective.

Um... What? That is confusing... Unless it is sarcasm.

But I'm Pagan and I do not view all of my gods as just.

Well then you are the exception to my analogy, not the rule.  

[Artto]

divineseraph

Actually, I think the bit by John you posted says the exact opposite of what you took it to mean. Unless that was sarcasm. It's saying, quite plainly, that even if you worship Jesus, if you are not adhering to his teaching and guidelines, then you are not truly a follower of Christ.

It's saying that true faith should make you do good works. I was under the impression that most of christian denominations only list faith in Jesus Christ as a requirement.
Especially because of this verse, which seems pretty clear:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Jesus already did the good works for us.

May I ask which denomination you are, Someoneiknow?  

[Someoneiknow]

Artto

divineseraph

Actually, I think the bit by John you posted says the exact opposite of what you took it to mean. Unless that was sarcasm. It's saying, quite plainly, that even if you worship Jesus, if you are not adhering to his teaching and guidelines, then you are not truly a follower of Christ.

It's saying that true faith should make you do good works. I was under the impression that most of christian denominations only list faith in Jesus Christ as a requirement.
Especially because of this verse, which seems pretty clear:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8–10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Jesus already did the good works for us.

May I ask which denomination you are, Someoneiknow?

Ephesians is only pointing out the obvious, that a person cannot boast or be solely saved by their works. As I stated first, you are saved by Christ first and always. But you must do works in harmony of Christ. It is also said, not all who say "I believe in Christ" will be given into heaven. You MUST show faith and you MUST do the works of God before you are accepted as a TRUE Christian. I am LDS.  

[LSD TV]

For Christians I think that has to do with Adam and Eve. I could be wrong though.  

[Tiina Brown]

.... I wonder if anyone will bother reading this, and if they do read it, i wonder if they will understand what i mean .....

To me, it is obvious:
There is no "born into sin".
But, humans decided to call natural things "sinful", and God may even have given some leeway in that, as i see it like "go ahead, see if you can live with it".
They couldn't, but lied to others, and even themselves, that they could.

Then Jesus came. To enforce the true rules, and the communion with God.
He pointed out that noone could live with counting natural things as sin, as that would mean, that everyone is sinful.

However, Saulus made Paulus, couldn't grasp that several natural, to him "ungodly" ways, really were no sins ...... so, he and/or his followers, instead went for the "born into sin" thing.  

[Curaudo]

I'm a budding Christian apologist, so I'll try and clear this up if I can. Basically, if you look at what the bible has to say, people are only EVER baptized after they've already made the decision to follow Christ. Baptism is suppose to be a way for someone to show outwardly to God the commitment they've already made to Him. You won't find any children being baptized in the bible, as they aren't old enough to choose.
As for the whole original sin thing, what we inherit from Adam is our proclivity towards sin. We are, so to speak, predisposed toward sin, and it's very difficult to resist that urge. It's not that we are born GUILTY OF sin, but that we are born sinners. It is possible to live a life free of sin if one were VERY well self-controlled, but the testimony of Scripture and real life experience is that no one alive today can live a life free of sin. The bible say "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", and so we are all guilty of sin, and every sin carries the penalty of damnation. God, in his mercy, sent Jesus to take the punishment that we sinners rightly deserve so that we can be forgiven for what we've done, and therefore can go to heaven. It's not possible to earn salvation, as most religions teach. It's only something God can grant by His forgiveness, and the only way for God to be perfectly loving AND perfectly just is by punishing Jesus in our place.

Whew, I hope that clears things up.  

[Ren Tohimaru]

I don't know if anyone's mention this yet, so if they did, sorry.

A number of Eastern religions believe in multiple lives leading up to salvation-whatever that may be. For myself I believe that if you follow the basic moralities of life-family, truth, honesty, honor, etc.-then you'll go on to salvation, whatever that may be.  

[Aspen 2010]

i'm a catholic so I'm gonna use what my diety of Christianity believes, because I don't know about the others, but according to the Catholic Bible and other scriptures, everyone is born sinful, not that they are forced to sin, but when Adam and Eve ate from the forbiden fruit, they released sin, death, ignororence, and suffering into the world, and original sin is brought into every human being, from the beggining of time to the modern era.