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collapsiblbunny

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:55 pm
"Why on Earth do you think you have to badmouth his religion?"

"Because he chose to post in a debate about his viewpoints, which happen to be completely contrary to ours (or, at least, mine). Last I checked, not agreeing was part of a debate."

I understand this is a debate. I'm not stupid. Nor am I blind. But just because you can say a debate is to argue( I'd prefer, discuss), different points on a matter, doesn't instantly change everything. You WERE debating, then you started QUARRELING, and now you're BADMOUTHING. Badmouthing his religion that is.
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:22 pm
Indeed. And if we could all take a step back for a second and ease up on one another, that would be just fantastic. Now, I don't think things have gone all that far out of bounds here; this is still a pretty civil discussion. But none of this is really apropos to the thread's topic (i.e. magic), so it'd probably be best if you either a) continued this tangential discussion via PM or b) started a new thread on the fine distinction between discussion and quarrelling and hashed it out there.

And for the record, I consider the spelling of 'magic' with the archaic terminal 'k' (thus creating 'magick') to be an annoying affectation. M. Crowley could have easily articulated the distinction between his mystical, Thelema magic and stage magic without tacking that pretentious 'k' onto the word 'magic'.  

Tarrou


Fairytoes

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:52 pm
Well, it seems to me that God created everything and He created everything for a purpose. This is far to vast for me to truly wrap my little mind around. This conversation seems very complicated but it really is very simple. God says through His Son, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in EVERYTHING, by prayer and petiton, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." Philippians 4:9

So, it is through God we ask healing be done for another person, or the healing of the Earth or whatever we are presently concerned about.

Magik uses what God has created (the energy of it, let's say the herb peppermint) to conjure the energy from that herb that God created and raise it to a cone of power and hear's where it becomes a problem.......
Then THEY tell is where to go and to what purpose it has.

Okay so let me clearify this. Peppermint is a herb that is good in cooking and tea. If you have an upset stomach, you can drink some peppermint tea and feel better. Is that a sin............. No.
I believe God made peppermint to have that specific purpose.
Now, if I with all good intention, know that a friend of mine has an upset stomach so I take the herb and conjure energy, and release that energy that I conjured to relieve my friend's upset stomach .................. Is that a sin.............. Yes.
That is were magik has a problem. Is it wrong to want to heal your friend?
No................
It is wrong to bypass the creator of all things. Mr. McShrimpy, don't take this the wrong way, but for you to say what is best for someone else and use your own power to bring about that result is at best errogant, compared to God's view.
Even though in your heart you feel you are doing the right thing, you are doing it with a spirit of rebellion to the creator of the very energy from which you conjure your energy. You are in fact saying,"I know what's best for this situation, not You God."
Can good things be accomplished by magik? like the healing of someone's stomach ache............ Yes, but, the act of it in itself is rebellious and that will leave us with, let us not forget, the iniquity of the act itself. so, at what price are you really healing?  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:16 am
Fairytoes
Well, it seems to me that God created everything and He created everything for a purpose. This is far to vast for me to truly wrap my little mind around. This conversation seems very complicated but it really is very simple. God says through His Son, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in EVERYTHING, by prayer and petiton, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God." Philippians 4:9

So, it is through God we ask healing be done for another person, or the healing of the Earth or whatever we are presently concerned about.

Magik uses what God has created (the energy of it, let's say the herb peppermint) to conjure the energy from that herb that God created and raise it to a cone of power and hear's where it becomes a problem.......
Then THEY tell is where to go and to what purpose it has.

Okay so let me clearify this. Peppermint is a herb that is good in cooking and tea. If you have an upset stomach, you can drink some peppermint tea and feel better. Is that a sin............. No.
I believe God made peppermint to have that specific purpose.
Now, if I with all good intention, know that a friend of mine has an upset stomach so I take the herb and conjure energy, and release that energy that I conjured to relieve my friend's upset stomach .................. Is that a sin.............. Yes.
That is were magik has a problem. Is it wrong to want to heal your friend?
No................
It is wrong to bypass the creator of all things. Mr. McShrimpy, don't take this the wrong way, but for you to say what is best for someone else and use your own power to bring about that result is at best errogant, compared to God's view.
Even though in your heart you feel you are doing the right thing, you are doing it with a spirit of rebellion to the creator of the very energy from which you conjure your energy. You are in fact saying,"I know what's best for this situation, not You God."
Can good things be accomplished by magik? like the healing of someone's stomach ache............ Yes, but, the act of it in itself is rebellious and that will leave us with, let us not forget, the iniquity of the act itself. so, at what price are you really healing?

correct! no one is to tell the creator what he can or cannot do in a situation, if it's best then it's best, you do not step in and atempt to take control from him, an excellent point! as are all of cometh's! he's definatly the best debater I've ever seen on the christian side! I must say, this debate went very well!  

Etherealemblem


Jocken

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:16 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor

Well, for the example you used, think of moses as a conduit of sorts for God's power. Not even that, Moses simply asked for God to do something for Isreal and God granted Moses' wish.
Quote:

It's fine and good to say that, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. There doesn't seem to be any reason why the terms "miracle" and "magic" can't both be applied to God's actions.

Like I've already said, that is christian theology. I'm not saying that it coincides with the dictionary definition (which is religiously neutral) or with some other religions definition of the word. In short, God's people (the Jews and, later, the Christians) saw/were told of a supernatural phenomenom that was not of God. God the instructed them to not practice/condone such actions/occourences. It just so happened to be the word 'magic' that was used to describe the phenomenom. So, since 'magic' was used by God to talk about supernatural events that were not of Him, only the word miracle is applicable to supernatural events inspired by God out of the two.

When talging about divine intervention, using "magic" can be helpful, as it is more specific. Despite the fact that it contains a quite non-religions connotation, "magic" can be proper to use, even when describing God's actions. "Miriacle" is somewhat broader than "magic." God's miracles happen, generally, in one of two ways: either He causes something to happen that is outside the realm of natural possibility, like the resurrection (magic) or He causes what can be described as a "miracle of chance" a bit of good timing or causing something very improbable (but still possible) to happen according to His will, like a charity organization winning the lottery juat before a major catastrophe. "Magic" cannot be used to describe the latter, but when describing the former, it is somewhat more specific.It denotes God doing something entirely supernatural.  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:30 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor
Edward McShrimpy
Yeah, I'm back. And I've got some more information defending maick, and it includes scientific facts. When were are born, and all through almost everybody on Earth, we don't use most of our brain. Scientists are pretty sure that one part of our brains is the part where psychic powers and magick come from. They beleive that when we are born, the reason they have found that part of the brain used so little because, as we grow up, we are told that magick and psychic powers are either evil or not real, so we grow away from this part of our brain. It is possible, however, to use that part of our brain, so that's the closest scientists have gotten to whatever that part of the brain may do.


That 85% of our brains that we don't consciously use goes towards controlling breathing, beating our hearts and other such important things. Sorry bud, but if you want telekenises from your brain you might have to get used to living without air.

I must concur with Mr. Inquisitor here. That we don't "use" in any sense most of our brains is a myth. As was said, itis used for the many subconsiious activities of the body. Also, many of the claims Mr. McShrimpy makes are quite proposterous. The assertions he makes about what "scientists" think are absolutly absurd. The brain does, however, serve as a link or bridge between the soul and the body. The separation of the soul from the brain is most likely similar to being in a coma, w/o concious thought. In the hypothetical world of magic, energy which exists in the same dimension as the soul (the fourth) is invoked into the physical world, causing energy where there is none. Telekenisis is simply a direct link through this dimension. And yes, it would be an instituion of the mind. Fortunatly, God saw fit to inhibit this, whether or not it could happen is irrelevant. The only possibility of supernatural power in our world comes from God.  

Jocken


Jocken

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:33 pm
by the way, Edward, is there any reason you use the EtDk spelling of magic?  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:27 am
EtDk? And, I'm not sure if I've said this before or not because it's a tad late, and I'm lazy xd ,but why is it that if we do something bad with magick, then the rule of three kicks in and gives us bad karma? If Satan (In your religion) wanted us to do bad, why would he punish us for it? We are rewarded for doing good, and Satan wouldn't do us good, now, would he?  

ungod ubiquitous


iRTsuki

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:55 pm
Edward McShrimpy
EtDk? And, I'm not sure if I've said this before or not because it's a tad late, and I'm lazy xd ,but why is it that if we do something bad with magick, then the rule of three kicks in and gives us bad karma? If Satan (In your religion) wanted us to do bad, why would he punish us for it? We are rewarded for doing good, and Satan wouldn't do us good, now, would he?


with magic think of it this way, all actions/magic effect the rest of the world, here is small story to explain this.

There is a stick in the middle of a pond, the water is quiet and still, lets say you throw a pebble in that pond, the ripples then form and move the stick that was unmoved. The pebble is your action, the stick is how it effects the world. just a mere pebble moved that stick as it was undisturbed, your action as small as it is effects everything, same thing applys to magic. your goal may be with a spell is to get good grades, but your so specific that you forget how you will be getting those good grades, so your spell works in its way and lets say you end up cheating to get those good grades, your spell still worked just not how you wanted it to, so now you are left with the concequences x3 you can fail the test, get detention and then lets say you get suspended. but this isnt just for bad actions and magic, this effects the good as well. Lets say your spell was worded as to study harder, you get that good grade on your test as a result, you pass that class and you graduate on time. its a little odd for me to explain but here is a quote from the wiccans creed "Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good. When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow." its borrowed witchcraft rules but yea i guess that explains that end in a nutshell.  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:16 pm
Edward McShrimpy
EtDk? And, I'm not sure if I've said this before or not because it's a tad late, and I'm lazy xd ,but why is it that if we do something bad with magick, then the rule of three kicks in and gives us bad karma? If Satan (In your religion) wanted us to do bad, why would he punish us for it? We are rewarded for doing good, and Satan wouldn't do us good, now, would he?

It's not so much that Satan wants us to "do bad." He wants us to turn away from God. To this end he encourages the "bad" which we may find appealing and therefore be more likely to do. He wants us to turn down God's protection and care for if we turn it down, we will be unprotected after death. Hell is where Satan has direct power over you. It is described as torture because of Satan's hatred for humanity. The story goes that Satan rebelled against God because he was jealous of humanity and of God's power. Because he lost and was banished, he "takes it out" as it were on those who do not accept the protection which God offers. Coming full circle, this leads back to his desire to tempt us away from God.  

Jocken


Kittey-chan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:18 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor
Sinner
Huh?

Yeah, of course it exists. It's only completely untestable, but since when does that mean anything?


Sinner, you're talking to Christians.

God is untestable.

rofl
I didn't even get to the rest of the thread yet... that was beautiful.  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:36 pm
Another definition of magic(k?? don't get me started on the k...) often used by people who use it, and I paraphrase:
Quote:
An exertion of will to effect a change in oneself or one's surroundings.

Now, of course, this still makes magic morally wrong for Christians. We should be following *God's* will, not our own.

Now, to the Christians: Pagans, witches, wiccans, ect. ect. do not follow a central authority. It is useless to argue that something is a certain way because so-and-so important authority said it was. Much like many faithful Christians have not read the entire bible much less translated it from the original languages, many people who use magic in their every day lives won't know the entire history.

I had a point to this. I really did. My mind died on me. Maybe I'll come back with an edit if I remember??  

Kittey-chan


iRTsuki

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:46 pm
that_fairy
Another definition of magic(k?? don't get me started on the k...) often used by people who use it, and I paraphrase:
Quote:
An exertion of will to effect a change in oneself or one's surroundings.

Now, of course, this still makes magic morally wrong for Christians. We should be following *God's* will, not our own.

Now, to the Christians: Pagans, witches, wiccans, ect. ect. do not follow a central authority. It is useless to argue that something is a certain way because so-and-so important authority said it was. Much like many faithful Christians have not read the entire bible much less translated it from the original languages, many people who use magic in their every day lives won't know the entire history.

I had a point to this. I really did. My mind died on me. Maybe I'll come back with an edit if I remember??


but then doesnt god give us free will. When i think this and how it relates to christianity i think yes i have the will to do whatever i want because hey isnt it acording to "Gods" plan anyways. But so that would make me think maybe im on the path i am for a reason. To learn somthing to test in my heart somthing. And just on a unrelated note, i bought 2 books the other day, one Called Drawing Down The Moon by Margot Adler and the other... a Bible (New living Translation) because i think it would be good to read a bible even if im a nonbeliever, and the other book will enlighten me more on what i may or may not already know.  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:07 pm
Edward McShrimpy
but why is it that if we do something bad with magick, then the rule of three kicks in and gives us bad karma?

What karma is.
What karma isn't.

Quote:
If Satan (In your religion) wanted us to do bad, why would he punish us for it? We are rewarded for doing good, and Satan wouldn't do us good, now, would he?
The Satan doesn't punish us for it. He rewards us when we sin, and that is part of the appeal of sin. It is God that does the punishing.  

ioioouiouiouio


ioioouiouiouio

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:21 pm
AisuruTsuki
but then doesnt god give us free will. When i think this and how it relates to christianity i think yes i have the will to do whatever i want because hey isnt it acording to "Gods" plan anyways.

Sure, God gave us free will, but that doesn't mean that we should go out and do whatever we want.  
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