Ordeals.

[TeaDidikai]

I should note I wasn't able to read the whole thing- so I may be missing some major details.

Here's where I am at.

We're looking at questionable mental health in regards to people engaging in sexual activity and religious experiences.

My argument comes down to this. People in a fragile state deserve the benefits they can reap from sex and spiritual experiences. That said, as with any possible tool towards bettering themselves, attention must be paid that said tool will provide more benefit than harm in order to not compound the issues already present.

You don't want folks seeking sexual or spiritual experiences to have to heal from those experiences themselves on top of other problems they already face. It's the same way that you don't want a patient on the operating table to have to recover from both the surgery, and an infection from improper sterilization.

In a medical setting, measures are taken that ensure that things are safe.
In a religious or sexual setting (or a blending of the two) you'd want to take similar measures. This could mean providing counseling, denying certain services to people who aren't in the right place to receive them, helping the person get to the right place to begin with. However it manifests itself, it is best to avoid the appearance of impropriety in hopes that it will help curb the rate of complications.

The problem lies with both those seeking unhealthy sexual and spiritual solutions, as well as those willing to indulge or even encourage them.


If the seeker isn't grounded enough to be touched by the words of those who are there to guide them- they're retreat to someone who is there to use them.
If the person isn't trained enough to help a seeker, or doesn't recognize the issues in play or worse yet- is using the seeker for their own ends- then it will surely perpetuate the problems until someone breaks the pattern through crisis or choice.

In regards to consent, what we understand as consent is a legal attempt to quantify a truth. When we look at the ability to consent, we examine the mental state of the people in question.

We out of hand dismiss that minors can consent on the grounds that they have not reached the state of development where on a natural progression, their autonomy is enough to balance their personal positions against those around them.

We relieve the burden of consent from those who are not able to tell the difference between their interests and that of those around them. If it falls short of that- we have to be able to allow people to make mistakes. Horrible mistakes, but mistakes none the less.

When we look at the Frosts- we are unwilling to allow those mistakes to be made by the parents for the children and because of psychological and sociological research, there is evidence that allowing such behavior to be perpetrated causes an unacceptable amount of harm.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

TeaDidikai

I should note I wasn't able to read the whole thing- so I may be missing some major details.

Here's where I am at.

We're looking at questionable mental health in regards to people engaging in sexual activity and religious experiences.

My argument comes down to this. People in a fragile state deserve the benefits they can reap from sex and spiritual experiences. That said, as with any possible tool towards bettering themselves, attention must be paid that said tool will provide more benefit than harm in order to not compound the issues already present.

You don't want folks seeking sexual or spiritual experiences to have to heal from those experiences themselves on top of other problems they already face. It's the same way that you don't want a patient on the operating table to have to recover from both the surgery, and an infection from improper sterilization.

In a medical setting, measures are taken that ensure that things are safe.
In a religious or sexual setting (or a blending of the two) you'd want to take similar measures. This could mean providing counseling, denying certain services to people who aren't in the right place to receive them, helping the person get to the right place to begin with. However it manifests itself, it is best to avoid the appearance of impropriety in hopes that it will help curb the rate of complications.

The problem lies with both those seeking unhealthy sexual and spiritual solutions, as well as those willing to indulge or even encourage them.


If the seeker isn't grounded enough to be touched by the words of those who are there to guide them- they're retreat to someone who is there to use them.
If the person isn't trained enough to help a seeker, or doesn't recognize the issues in play or worse yet- is using the seeker for their own ends- then it will surely perpetuate the problems until someone breaks the pattern through crisis or choice.

Agreed in the whole, to be honest. It's a very sane and responsible take on the whole Ordeal idea - and reminds me very much of the BDSM stuff I'd read years back. Safe, sane and consensual and all that. biggrin

The problem with the group in question is there seems to be no regard for that fragility whatsoever, which makes me consider both the person to undergo the ritual as having given themselves over to something they were not prepared for, and the ritual workers ill prepared at best, and at worst willingly adding to someone else's mental issues rather than attempting to aid them through a valid spiritual practice.

Quote:

In regards to consent, what we understand as consent is a legal attempt to quantify a truth. When we look at the ability to consent, we examine the mental state of the people in question.

Hence my point that I am not sure the person who underwent this ritual was of sound mind to give said consent. 3nodding

Quote:

We out of hand dismiss that minors can consent on the grounds that they have not reached the state of development where on a natural progression, their autonomy is enough to balance their personal positions against those around them.

The question of why all minors get that burden relieved is one that'd been raised over in ED proper before - they do tend to develop at differing rates, and some might be capable of informed consent for things like this younger, according to them.

Quote:

We relieve the burden of consent from those who are not able to tell the difference between their interests and that of those around them. If it falls short of that- we have to be able to allow people to make mistakes. Horrible mistakes, but mistakes none the less.

Which actually makes me think of our Iron Wood group over there more - was that 'rape by god' what she wanted, or what the group wanted? Could she tell the difference between those two?

Quote:

When we look at the Frosts- we are unwilling to allow those mistakes to be made by the parents for the children and because of psychological and sociological research, there is evidence that allowing such behavior to be perpetrated causes an unacceptable amount of harm.

Mmm, true. As I say, though, I was simply playing advocate for something I in no way enjoy the concept of - the Frosts scare me, in honesty. That someone could consider forcible sexual acts on their own child a good plan for the child's spiritual development is a terminally icky concept to me. But I can see where they'd make an argument that it would be for the child's eventual benefit, even if they do not think so now. Despite psychological evidences, the claim would be made that it's akin to forcing a child to eat vegetables - the child dislikes it now, but the vegetables add to their overall health.

Bleh. I feel dirty making that claim. I need some soap. crying  

[TeaDidikai]

Byaggha

Agreed in the whole, to be honest. It's a very sane and responsible take on the whole Ordeal idea - and reminds me very much of the BDSM stuff I'd read years back. Safe, sane and consensual and all that. biggrin

Power Exchange is where I draw most of these tenants from.

Quote:

The problem with the group in question is there seems to be no regard for that fragility whatsoever, which makes me consider both the person to undergo the ritual as having given themselves over to something they were not prepared for, and the ritual workers ill prepared at best, and at worst willingly adding to someone else's mental issues rather than attempting to aid them through a valid spiritual practice.

Yep.

Quote:

The question of why all minors get that burden relieved is one that'd been raised over in ED proper before - they do tend to develop at differing rates, and some might be capable of informed consent for things like this younger, according to them.

I completely agree that folks develop as they will. But the law is built for the general population, not for individuals. It's a matter of social contract, not of truth. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Quote:

Which actually makes me think of our Iron Wood group over there more - was that 'rape by god' what she wanted, or what the group wanted? Could she tell the difference between those two?

We'd need an evaluation to tell.

Let's drop the Frosts all together. I'm with you- I need a shower.  

[patch99329]

I reccomended some of Kalderas books in another thread, as many spirit workers I respect liked his work.
However, If I (and they for that matter) had known about this, I/they would not have reccomended the books.

I don't even know what to say. confused  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

patch99329

I reccomended some of Kalderas books in another thread, as many spirit workers I respect liked his work.
However, If I (and they for that matter) had known about this, I/they would not have reccomended the books.

I don't even know what to say. confused

I think we can all come to the conclusion that ordeals in and of themselves are not bad things, and while there's some serious misappropriation going on in the spirit worker community, I don't think we have to trash it as a whole, but the way Ironwood does their ordeals and the methods they use to convince people to do them are totally ******** out of line.

Agreed.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

TeaDidikai

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I think we can all come to the conclusion that ordeals in and of themselves are not bad things, and while there's some serious misappropriation going on in the spirit worker community, I don't think we have to trash it as a whole, but the way Ironwood does their ordeals and the methods they use to convince people to do them are totally ******** out of line.

Agreed.

Seconded.  

[TeaDidikai]

So... do we want to discuss how to go about finding a safe way to engage in Ordeal work?  

[Cranium Squirrel]

I suppose the first question would be thus: How would one go about finding an ordeal worker who would be suited not only to mechanically perform the ordeal ordained by your god (or gods, if several are involved), but one who would take it seriously as a religious experience and not just kinkify it (unless that was the gods' purpose)? Is there a list for reputable ordeal workers, or do they all get lumped with Iron Wood?  

[TeaDidikai]

Byaggha

I suppose the first question would be thus: How would one go about finding an ordeal worker who would be suited not only to mechanically perform the ordeal ordained by your god (or gods, if several are involved), but one who would take it seriously as a religious experience and not just kinkify it (unless that was the gods' purpose)? Is there a list for reputable ordeal workers, or do they all get lumped with Iron Wood?

Think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

"Why Ordeals" would be the place I would start.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

TeaDidikai

Think we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

"Why Ordeals" would be the place I would start.

I do have a habit of jumping the gun, don't I?

That's definitely a much better start place.  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Also, intentional ordeals vs. ordeals that you happen upon.

Excellent distinction. I was going to mention this myself.  

[Shearaha]

TeaDidikai

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Also, intentional ordeals vs. ordeals that you happen upon.

Excellent distinction. I was going to mention this myself.

What about how to recognize the ordeals that you happen upon.