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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:41 pm
KurtisH2
I Do Have a question on the matter of initiation, origionally in the Old Practice the rite of initiation was symbolised by the Skyclad ceremony under the full moon at the equinox. poor rich and all were welcome and stood as one body together, the initiate would then "derobe" as a symbol of the joining, however the The Goddess Said "Come to me my children as you are called for all are welcome" so in a sense could you not technically induct yourself by profession of faith and consecration of yourself to the goddess under the full moon, by making a vow to her?


While I'm sure it's a Mystery of its' own, and very pleasing to some people, what you have described is not a Wiccan rite. It completely leaves the God out of the equation, it says nothing of the cross-gendered transmission of the rite of initiation, and ignores the orthopraxic nature of Wicca.

I'm curious as to the source of this practice you're describing. I've never heard of it, or read about it before, in the specific way you're describing. Also, which Goddess are we talking about here?

Also...you're seeming to speak for Wiccans and Wicca here, in your posts. Are you an initiate?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:15 pm
KurtisH2

Necromancy comes from the greek roots of Necro meaning dead Mancy- meaning the way of or the spirit of. so the literal translation is the path of the dead or the spirit of the dead. and no it's not related to wicca in fact wiccan's despise the raising or calling of the dead with the exception of samhain, and only then because the dead are close to our worls and the god is leading the procession.


Mancy means nothing of the sort. ~Mancy means "divination by", from the Greek mantia, "oracle, divination" thus "cartomancy", divination by cards. You don't have to raise the dead in order to divine with them. Although how precisely you'd do it I have no idea. Perhaps studying the condition of the corpse?  

Sanguina Cruenta
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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:00 pm
I've been wondering if we should add a note on the use of ritual language out of context to this thread. Or maybe it needs to be its' own thread.

I dunno. Opinions?  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:09 pm
Morgandria
I've been wondering if we should add a note on the use of ritual language out of context to this thread. Or maybe it needs to be its' own thread.

I dunno. Opinions?

This thread might be good. Haveing it all in one place might make it easier for people.  

Esiris

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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:38 am
So, for the record:

Some people like to use phrases like 'Blessed Be', 'So Mote it Be', 'Merry Meet', and 'Merry Part', when talking to other pagans online. However, don't be surprised if someone asks you not to, or might possibly be offended by your doing so.

These phrases are ritual language. That is to say, they are phrases used within the structure of Wiccan ritual for very specific purposes, and outside of that context they may be meaningless, or incorrectly applied. Some Wiccans feel that using them out of context cheapens or degrades their sacredness. Others may not feel as strongly.

'Blessed Be' is a very specific blessing. It's not a greeting or a parting, and by using it as such you're showing you don't know what it means, or that you don't value its' importance to Wiccans.

Also, amongst initiated Wiccans, there is very much a feeling that people who pepper their speech or writing with these phrases are trying hard -too hard, really- to fit into a subculture they feel insecure about. We all know people who overuse the jargon for certain groups or interests in order to look experienced or knowledgeble...but quite often it's too much the other way, and you end up looking like a noob. My own experience as a Wiccan has been so.

There's nothing wrong with just talking to other pagans, or specifically Wiccans, like you would anyone else. "Hi" and "TTYL" work just fine, and they're not going to upset anyone or make you look over-enthusiastic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ok to not know these sorts of things. Valid, factual information about Wicca, and especially Wiccan practice, can be very thin on the ground for non-initiates. But once you do know the
facts, there's no reason not to act on them.

If you're asked politely to stop using these ritual phrases out of context, please do so out of courtesy. It's greatly appreciated.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:18 pm
Thank you Morg. I meant to PM you to see if you had something written up, and I completely forgot. sweatdrop

Is it ok to add it to the first page?  

ncsweet
Crew


Morgandria

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:19 pm
ncsweet
Thank you Morg. I meant to PM you to see if you had something written up, and I completely forgot. sweatdrop

Is it ok to add it to the first page?


Absolutely. I hope people are reading the first page, although I fear it's quite long now. sweatdrop  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:02 am
Morgandria
Teh Bloody Princess
So basically there is no such thing as solitary wicca?


That's it exactly. There is no such thing as Solitary Wicca.
Okay, I know we already discussed the topic about solitary wicca, but I still don't get it.
For one, if this is true, then Scott Cunningham should have re-titled his book.
2nd, what if you want to be a Solitary Witch but you still believe in the Wiccan beliefs and deities? What does that make you?
A store in my town has "spiritual meetings" 2 days a month, and it involves a circle casting and the leader of the group is (from what I know) Wiccan. If I become a part of that group, and stay in it, would that make me Wiccan?

Again I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere. I looked at the sticky and I still had questions
 

XxCrack_OrangexX


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:16 am
XxCrack_OrangexX

For one, if this is true, then Scott Cunningham should have re-titled his book.


I agree. He should have.

Quote:
2nd, what if you want to be a Solitary Witch but you still believe in the Wiccan beliefs and deities? What does that make you?


A solitary witch.

The gods of Wicca can theoretically be worshipped outside of Wicca. However, you have no way of confirming that they are the same gods as in Wicca until you are initiated into Wicca and learn their names and are formally introduced to them.

Most Wiccan beliefs are formed through what you experience in Wiccan ritual. Wiccan rituals are "experiential". You learn the religion through the experiences.
Quote:

A store in my town has "spiritual meetings" 2 days a month, and it involves a circle casting and the leader of the group is (from what I know) Wiccan. If I become a part of that group, and stay in it, would that make me Wiccan?


No. A Wiccan coven is a particular group that works in a particular way. It involves initiation, and finding a coven that fits you can be a long search.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:34 pm
XxCrack_OrangexX
Okay, I know we already discussed the topic about solitary wicca, but I still don't get it.
For one, if this is true, then Scott Cunningham should have re-titled his book.


Unfortunetely, things in life are seldom that simple. It's likely Llewellyn owned the publishing rights to his work from the get-go, and even if he'd wanted to remove any references to Wicca from his works, they wouldn't have let him. Publishers are usually more interested in money, than accuracy and intellectual honesty.

Also, his Wicca book was published only 5 years before his death, and some of them after his death.

I had a discussion with a Craft elder some years ago, who told me that Cunningham greatly regretted calling his work 'Wicca'. He himself recognized that it was not.

XxCrack_OrangexX
2nd, what if you want to be a Solitary Witch but you still believe in the Wiccan beliefs and deities? What does that make you?


It makes you a solitary witch.

Wicca doesn't really have beliefs. As San said, it's an experiential religion - the experiences of the various rites can shape an initiate's beliefs, but an initiate's beliefs are personal, and may not be shared by other initiates. I know that some of my covenmates beliefs are very divergent from my own.

Also, the deities of Wicca are not known to non-initiates - their names are oathbound. If you are not an initiate, there's no real way of knowing if the deities you honour are the Lord and Lady of the Wica.
The oathbound, initiate-only rituals of Wicca are how they desire to be honoured - there's no knowing if they take interest in or respond to rituals done by non-initiates outside the proscribed context. It's very hard to invoke someone into your rituals if you don't know their names.

XxCrack_OrangexX

A store in my town has "spiritual meetings" 2 days a month, and it involves a circle casting and the leader of the group is (from what I know) Wiccan. If I become a part of that group, and stay in it, would that make me Wiccan?


No, it won't make you Wiccan. Wiccans sometimes do public rituals, for whatever reason, for those who are not initiates - when there are guests present, or at a public gathering. It'll have a few similarities to an actual Wiccan rite, but there's nothing oathbound involved. Wicca calls this 'outer-court' material - it is just your basic neo-paganism, with a little Wiccan 'flavour' thrown in, in the ritual structure. Some covens use a meeting group or public rituals as a way to meet potential Seekers - effectively the outer-court is a student group, or 'outer-court', and some members of this may be invited to join the coven's inner court.

Casting a circle doesn't make a ritual Wiccan. The specific way Wicca casts a circle is important to Wicca, but lots of people cast circles in very different ways for their own reasons, and Wicca can't and doesn't claim circle-casting as theirs alone.

Since Wiccans swear oaths to never reveal Wicca to those not initiated in the proper way, or outside a proper space (ie. the covenstead), it's a good bet these rituals are a) outer-court, or b) performed by an eclectic neo-pagan witch who mislabels themselves a Wiccan.

You can ask your group leader if they are an initiate of a lineaged tradition of Wicca. If they say they are no, or that they are solitary, then the rituals they perform are not Wicca. However, if you like the group, and the rituals work for you, there's no reason why you can't keep going and enjoy them. Just understand that it's not really Wicca.  

Morgandria

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too2sweet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:56 pm
Morgandria
XxCrack_OrangexX
Okay, I know we already discussed the topic about solitary wicca, but I still don't get it.
For one, if this is true, then Scott Cunningham should have re-titled his book.


I had a discussion with a Craft elder some years ago, who told me that Cunningham greatly regretted calling his work 'Wicca'. He himself recognized that it was not.


I had heard this as well from an Elder on the A&J list. So it is definitely sad that Cunningham never had the opportunity to make the changes.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:13 pm
Morgandria
Wicca calls this 'outer-court' material - it is just your basic neo-paganism, with a little Wiccan 'flavour' thrown in, in the ritual structure. Some covens use a meeting group or public rituals as a way to meet potential Seekers - effectively the outer-court is a student group, or 'outer-court', and some members of this may be invited to join the coven's inner court.

This is what we're doing with our "Weekend intensives". A bit of class, a bit of working- it's... hard to describe how much I'm enjoying it without it coming out wrong.

Something came up in the Wiccan thread. When I read "Some Blue Star and Georgian covens may have lineage as well, but it depends on the priesthood and elders of each individual lines of initiates" it got me wondering if Blue Star and maybe Protean elders were considered oathbreakers- but then I was told that Blue Star didn't even have lineage.

Now I'm confused. sweatdrop  

Esiris

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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm
Esiris

This is what we're doing with our "Weekend intensives". A bit of class, a bit of working- it's... hard to describe how much I'm enjoying it without it coming out wrong.

Something came up in the Wiccan thread. When I read "Some Blue Star and Georgian covens may have lineage as well, but it depends on the priesthood and elders of each individual lines of initiates" it got me wondering if Blue Star and maybe Protean elders were considered oathbreakers- but then I was told that Blue Star didn't even have lineage.

Now I'm confused. sweatdrop


AS I understand it, some of the elders in those trads may have been 3rds in BTW. You do have people who are initiates in multiple traditions, even if they're rare. My own HPS is both a Gardnerian and an Alexandrian 3rd.

Blue Star doesn't have lineage as a whole. Neither do Georgian/Protean covens. What they practice as Blue Star/Georgian initiates isn't Wicca - so initiation rites done in the manner of those traditions can't confer Wiccan status to someone. However, some of them may continue to initiate in the manner of their BTW traditions - in which case their initiates are lineaged and legit. Basically it comes down to whether or not those elders and priesthood are initiating people twice, in both BTW and non-BTW rites.

So...some lineages or covens might be BTW, even if the coven or lineage is nominally Blue Star, or Georgian. I'm willing to bet, though, it's very very rare.

As for being oathbreakers, I wouldn't say so. So long as they're not teaching BTW to people without the proper initiation, or giving oathbound materials to their new traditions, it isn't oathbreaking to have switched traditions.

For example, my own HPs will sometimes say to me that she's teaching me the Gardnerian method of something, and comment that there's a twist or small difference in the Alexandrian manner of that thing. But since I do not have the Alexandrian initiation, she doesn't elaborate and break her oaths.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:29 pm
Morgandria
AS I understand it, some of the elders in those trads may have been 3rds in BTW. You do have people who are initiates in multiple traditions, even if they're rare. My own HPS is both a Gardnerian and an Alexandrian 3rd.

Blue Star doesn't have lineage as a whole. Neither do Georgian/Protean covens. What they practice as Blue Star/Georgian initiates isn't Wicca - so initiation rites done in the manner of those traditions can't confer Wiccan status to someone. However, some of them may continue to initiate in the manner of their BTW traditions - in which case their initiates are lineaged and legit. Basically it comes down to whether or not those elders and priesthood are initiating people twice, in both BTW and non-BTW rites.
Thank you! That makes sense.

Quote:
As for being oathbreakers, I wouldn't say so. So long as they're not teaching BTW to people without the proper initiation, or giving oathbound materials to their new traditions, it isn't oathbreaking to have switched traditions.
I was wondering if it was oathbreaking because some Protean claim to be Wiccan, but people said they changed the core.

I just don't know enough to figure it out because of how the oaths are spoken of. sweatdrop

Quote:
For example, my own HPs will sometimes say to me that she's teaching me the Gardnerian method of something, and comment that there's a twist or small difference in the Alexandrian manner of that thing. But since I do not have the Alexandrian initiation, she doesn't elaborate and break her oaths.

This confuses me too- I thought it was okay to share stuff with people who are Wiccan.

I know I don't know much of anything about Wicca- but does it have to be so painfully obvious. I like thinking about this stuff- and my HPS seems to get a kick out of watching my head spin. It reminds me of how school teachers smile at kids on the playground. whee

Thanks for your time Morg. heart  

Esiris

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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:41 pm
Esiris

Quote:
For example, my own HPs will sometimes say to me that she's teaching me the Gardnerian method of something, and comment that there's a twist or small difference in the Alexandrian manner of that thing. But since I do not have the Alexandrian initiation, she doesn't elaborate and break her oaths.

This confuses me too- I thought it was okay to share stuff with people who are Wiccan.

I know I don't know much of anything about Wicca- but does it have to be so painfully obvious. I like thinking about this stuff- and my HPS seems to get a kick out of watching my head spin. It reminds me of how school teachers smile at kids on the playground. whee

Thanks for your time Morg. heart


Being an initiate of a particular tradition really only gives you access to that particular tradition's materials. I would still be treated with courtesy by initiates of another BTW tradition, and I would extend the same back to others - but that's just being polite. It doesn't entitle me to access any of that tradition's teachings or materials, or they ours. I could be wrong, but this has been my experience and understanding of things.

It's also one of the reasons it's very hard to say what the differences are between the various BTW branches - you need to be an initiate to experience them, and collecting initiations is generally not encouraged or looked well upon.  
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