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kage no neko

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:33 am
I think I can understand why someone would do that, say they're eclectic here and say they're Wiccan else where.
If they believe they should have a right to the title (although we're all very well aware they don't), they may say they're eclectic here just for the sake of avoiding an argument that won't get anyone anywhere.
If they would ******** be HONEST with you guys, you'd flip out on them. About how they've no right to call themselves Wiccan and such. The same old ******** argument that they've probably already heard before.
So your solution is if they won't be honest with you (which would get their heads chewed off) is to leave the guild, where they may be enjoying spending their time for things other than "Wicca"?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:21 am
kage no neko
I think I can understand why someone would do that, say they're eclectic here and say they're Wiccan else where.
If they believe they should have a right to the title (although we're all very well aware they don't), they may say they're eclectic here just for the sake of avoiding an argument that won't get anyone anywhere.
If they would ******** be HONEST with you guys, you'd flip out on them. About how they've no right to call themselves Wiccan and such. The same old ******** argument that they've probably already heard before.
So your solution is if they won't be honest with you (which would get their heads chewed off) is to leave the guild, where they may be enjoying spending their time for things other than "Wicca"?


All I want is for these people to be honest. Frankly, if they want to be willfully ignorant, that's fine - just make it clear to me, and I won't waste my time with that person again. I don't hound people or harrass them. I'm not rude with them. I point out some factual information, and if they still choose to disagree, that's fine. I just don't deal with them again.

I haven't yelled or screamed. I've asked some people to read a sticky. Last I checked that wasn't chewing someone's head off.

Also, if I myself was looking at a potential group to join, and say something in their group policies or rules that I diagree with on a fundamental level - I don't join the group thinking I can be quiet about it, avoid the subject, or in general misrepresent myself because there might be something else in the group I'd enjoy. I simply don't join the group at all, and look for a better fit.

What if:

You joined and hung out with one group of people and said, 'Oh yeah, totally I agree with you' - even if you didn't agree, you did whatever you thought you had to to belong (for whatever reason). Then you found a second group, and a third group, and you told them each something different - maybe even the total opposite of what you told the first group so you'd fit in there. Maybe those groups have crossover members. Maybe someone talks. Any any rate, news travels...and would it not stand to reason that at least one of those groups is going to be a) at least annoyed, and b) unwilling to indulge and accept your dishonesty?

Yes, it happens. People do it every day. And it leaves people backpedalling, apologizing, trying to salvage relationships and trust. Frequently it leaves them without a group at all, since neither may appreciate the individual's actions. Just because people do it, and they justify doing it to themselves, does not make it right, or a behavior to be approved of.


For me, the issue here isn't that these people enjoy things other than Wicca in guilds elsewhere. Why on earth would I care about that? It's that they're still calling those non-Wiccan things Wicca. And that I have a problem with, especially since we have offered them factual information as to the nature of Wicca.

--------------------------------------------------------
Let me run another scenario past you, about why I want people
to stop spreading misinformation:

A self-initiated, self-taught solitary witch believes Wicca = spells, you can "do whatever feels right" and that love spells are ethical.
(She may not know any differently than this - which is why I try to educate people in the first place.) She babbles at anyone who comes near her about it.

One of the people she talks to is a so-worker, and he gets this idea into his head: that's what Wicca is, and that all Wiccans do is cast spells. This individual is also sexist, loud, very crude, and likes to get in people's faces.

That individual goes to work, and sees a new co-worker wearing a pentacle. He asks her if she's one of those Wiccans he's heard about. She simply answers yes - whereupon he promptly asks her to cast a spell to make his p***s bigger. He harrasses her in similar vein for 2 days. He is lurid, and constantly bothering her about it while she is on the phone and unable to reply to him.

She reports him to management; he gets suspended. Some of management and the higher level floor staff are his friends. They in turn harrass the woman to withdraw her report. She refuses to do so, since working with him has given her considerable stress. He returns to work 2 weeks later, whereupon his friends harass her for 5 more months about her actions. Combined with the stress that accrues from working in a call center in the first place, she develops anxiety disorder. It's so bad that every time she leaves to go to work she throws up, cries, and doesn't always make it out the door. Eventually it forces her to leave her job.

Now...if said jackass hadn't heard about Wicca from the first person, and instead had heard it from someone else...it's possible he might have left the whole thing alone. It's possible the whole scenario would not have happened.

And I would still be able to work a job, or answer a phone, without having anxiety eat me alive.

I don't want people who aren't qualified to speak for my religion, doing so. I don't want anyone else to have a similar situation - or a worse situation, since I was sort of lucky in that this was not a violent episode. You simply can't tell me that no-one is going to suffer because of the actions of the self-labelled, eclectic, solitary "Wiccan". It happens.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Kage -
in recent days you have insulted me deeply, and I don't associate myself with people who insult me. Over time you have shown me that you are willing to mouth words you don't really believe, in order to avoid conflict. You avoid doing things that are intellectually honest because they're hard - something that shows me you are lazy.

If people throughout history had avoided doing what is honest and right, because it's hard, well....we'd have slaves still. We'd have segregation. America might still be British. Europe might be under a single totalitarian government.

I am sure it won't bother you at all, but I am choosing at this point to no longer communicate with you in any way. I find you lacking. Good luck with your future endeavours.  

Morgandria

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kage no neko

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:48 am
I wasn't referring to you when I was saying that people bite others' heads off. Nor have I meant to insult you at all.
Just while I was gone from gaia for those two weeks, I realized how amazingly relaxing it is to not argue. To not have to worry about dealing with people arguing over religion, or anything else like that. Yes, right now, I'm avoiding conflict. I'm trying to get people to understand things from a nicer point of view, not forcing it on them. In that other guild, I've talked with the owner and I've come to the conclusion she's stubborn and I can't change her mind on that (though she's accepted what she is practicing is not Wicca, still discussing that).
I try to say what I mean but sometimes I've difficulty expressing my words how I want, and confusion happens. Like you thinking I was saying that I don't care about people using Wicca how they like. It's not that I don't care about that, but rather that I don't care to deal with the stress that it's brought me. I don't understand why it's stressful to me, but I've decided to not let it bother me. I'll still stick up for BTW Wicca, but I'm sick of the arguing and head biting (though you're not doing it, some others are).
I'm interested in trying to figure out why people have attachments to the word Wicca, especially if they do not agree with what Wicca really is. It's my own desire to learn, and I'm not interested in wringing people out to get answers.

In that situation, I don't understand why he would've harassed the second woman if he wasn't harassing the first (since both were co-workers?), nor why he harassed either for any reason. neutral I personally would've insulted his p***s in some manner since he finds it to be that important. But I suppose that's just me. Sorry that it's affected you the way it has, and I hope you find yourself able to face the world again in the future, better than you can now.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:57 am
Quote:
If they would ******** be HONEST with you guys, you'd flip out on them. About how they've no right to call themselves Wiccan and such. The same old ******** argument that they've probably already heard before.
So your solution is if they won't be honest with you (which would get their heads chewed off) is to leave the guild, where they may be enjoying spending their time for things other than "Wicca"?


I've noticed that people only tend to get "chewed" when they are rude and blatantly disrespectful. Most of the time we understand quite well that it isn't really their fault that they are misinformed, and so we try to point them in the right direction. They are also more than welcome to debate the fact with us, and provide their own sources, etc... However the fact is most of the time their sources are crap, so their arguments don't hold up in the end.

We have standards, and expecting that people be honest with us in one of them. It's also a matter of being honest with themselves. If they don't feel comfortable calling themselves "Wiccan" to anyone and everyone (us included), and aren't willing/able to submit themselves to a bit of questioning about the reasons why they are choosing to call themselves such, then maybe they need to participate in a bit of self-examination. Because if they were right and absolutely sure of their right to claim it, then they would have no problem "defending" themselves, but instead of discussing/debating it they are the ones who freak out and/or flounce. And truly, yes, we'd rather that they leave, because anyone who is unwilling to even listen to ideas that are different than their own, or to acknowledge the possibility that they may be mistaken on something, aren't really worth wasting our time and energy on.  

too2sweet
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kage no neko

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:03 am
I think it'd be a good bit easier if someone could come up with a different name for them to call themselves. Instead of stripping that they've (wrongly) learned to call themselves (wiccan) and giving them another name, instead of leaving them without any title at all. It may not be important to you that they feel robbed of it, but it hurts them.
Then people say "eclectic pagan!" and they run around saying "paganism" and get yelled at for that, being told that paganism isn't a religion, it's an umbrella and yaddi-yaddi-yaddi..

If it weren't so funny/mean, the whole t'vaan would've been better than what they're left with. "Hey, you're a t'vannist!" kinda thing.
As silly as they are, labels are important to people. They may very well understand that Wicca isn't what they've been taught, but.. what else should they call themselves?

I don't understand the argument of Wicca being a nicer/better word than witch. I've never liked the idea of being called Wiccan, I've never liked what the books teach Wicca is to begin with. I prefer being called a witch..


Edit:
Wasn't there a discussion somewhere about whether or not Gardner even called his witchcult "Wicca"? Was that ever settled?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:54 am
Paganism in and of itself isn't a specific religion, which is why it's clarified as Neo-Pagan, when talking about eclectic paths. Usually once (within a discussion) that has been clarified, then they can say Pagan all they want and we'll understand what they mean. In those cases it is a matter of context - which is why those who say "I'm Pagan" are usually met with the whole - "what kind?" That way we know where they are coming from. Most of the time, once we know what sort of things interest people, we can point them in a better direction - especially if there is already an existing practice that maybe they weren't aware of.

A lot of times (especially in the case of "Wicca" wink they are so busy trying to make "Wicca" what they want it to be, never realizing that there is already an existing path that suits them better.

Gardner never called it Wicca, but he did refer to them as "of the Wica".  

too2sweet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:56 am
Whoa Whoa. Chibi Neko says wha??

I don't chew people out for being honest. I'm less mean or bitter or cruel when people are actually honest with me. I'm more understanding. I only chew people out if they are either belligerent with me, ignorant, lying to me, or are just wearing my patience down.

Correcting people=/=yelling. Typing in all caps and using an infinite use of exclamation marks is yelling. Calmly telling them the correction isn't yelling.

I honestly don't think using titles is a good thing. This has always been my actual problem with Christianity. Titles can get in the way of seeing each other for who we are. I'd rather spend my time labeling jars than people to be honest.

Calling yourself an eclectic pagan is not a label but the path you choose. People choose to be eclectic because that's how they feel. That's how their life is.

And people calling themselves Wiccan without being actual Wiccans robs those who are lineaged Wiccans of the title and it also hurts them neutral  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:22 pm
What's the difference between Wica and Wicca then? That the Wica practice Wicca? Or.. 'cause that'd just make me wonder where the word Wiccan came from then.

Tsukiyo: I realize that it hurts lineaged Wiccans. They've worked hard for their right to call themselves Wiccan. I just want to make it easier for those who are just finding out that they're not actually Wiccan, so they've a less difficult time with accepting it and maybe might more easily adjust to just calling themselves something different, then just being told they're wrong.

I also realize labels can be silly, but to quite a few people, it means something. It's their identity, it's what they ARE, to them. And having no label means.. they're nothing.  

kage no neko

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Aakosir

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:14 pm
Morgandria
Aakosir
There is such a thing as a solitary witch. They follow whatever religion and they practice magic, but I'm pretty sure they don't call themselves Wiccan. I guess I could fit into that category, but I'm still discovering.


I have no issues with that. I myself can identify as a solitary witch. But that isn't the issue here.

Some of our more recent members have joined other pagan guilds on Gaia at the same time as joining us, and comparing their intro posts between the guilds shows me that here they're claiming "eclectic" and at other places they are clearly claiming "Wiccan".

It isn't a hypothetical situation. People are saying one thing in one place, and another thing in another.


I understand what you were saying. I saw the post about no solitary Wiccans, because it isn't a solitary thing and posted that. I guess I was a little off topic.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:21 pm
kage no neko
What's the difference between Wica and Wicca then? That the Wica practice Wicca? Or.. 'cause that'd just make me wonder where the word Wiccan came from then.

Tsukiyo: I realize that it hurts lineaged Wiccans. They've worked hard for their right to call themselves Wiccan. I just want to make it easier for those who are just finding out that they're not actually Wiccan, so they've a less difficult time with accepting it and maybe might more easily adjust to just calling themselves something different, then just being told they're wrong.

I also realize labels can be silly, but to quite a few people, it means something. It's their identity, it's what they ARE, to them. And having no label means.. they're nothing.
I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?
No not having a label makes them free from the constraints of society and even ostraziation . Having a label can be more damaging emotionally, and psychologically than not having one. :3

The reason why people like the title Wiccan more than witch is because it's been portrayed by media and other sources as "goody two shoes" type thing. Throughout history and the past couple of decaded witches have been considered evil and vile. (Though with shows like Bewitched and movies like Wizard of Oz and Hallowteentown the perception has flipped among the younger generation some).

I don't see witch as a negative thing any more do I find the term Pagan to be negative.
I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan
 

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kage no neko

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:33 pm
How I see it is.. you guys are upset that there's dishonesty in people saying one thing here and another elsewhere.
But even if they were honest, you'd still be upset because they'd be saying something different than you believe. What if they don't feel like arguing it, or proving it to you? They'd still be being honest, but not stepping up to put it out for debate. Would that be better in some way?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:56 pm
kage no neko
How I see it is.. you guys are upset that there's dishonesty in people saying one thing here and another elsewhere.
But even if they were honest, you'd still be upset because they'd be saying something different than you believe. What if they don't feel like arguing it, or proving it to you? They'd still be being honest, but not stepping up to put it out for debate. Would that be better in some way?
I’ll erase this feeling…
I still have a long life don’t I?
kono omoi wo keshiteshimau ni ha
mada jinsei nagai deshou?
Again I wouldn't be upset.

I have friends who have lied to be in the past. They have told me one thing but told other people different things. I get pissed off at them because they lied to me. It's a betrayal of my trust. I do yell and I do scream at them.

I have other friends who are very honest and blunt with me. They're also very consistent. If they were to be the fluff kinda Wiccan I wouldn't be as harsh as I would with group A.
I’m missing the feeling…
so this pain is also welcomed!
natsukashiku naru
konna itami mo kangeijan
 

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:48 am
kage no neko
What's the difference between Wica and Wicca then? That the Wica practice Wicca? Or.. 'cause that'd just make me wonder where the word Wiccan came from then.


Wicca is an Old English term meaning witch, however it was a word that had fallen out of current language usage. Stewart Farrar (if I'm not mistaken) is the one who actually coined it in terms of relating to "Wica", and that is probably one of the reasons that there are people who say "Wicca" = "Witch", however what they don't realize is that it came back into usage it was referring to "Wica" specifically in which all people who were "of the Wica" (or Wiccan) were initiates, there for initiation was required to be one.

Quote:
I realize that it hurts lineaged Wiccans. They've worked hard for their right to call themselves Wiccan. I just want to make it easier for those who are just finding out that they're not actually Wiccan, so they've a less difficult time with accepting it and maybe might more easily adjust to just calling themselves something different, then just being told they're wrong.


You seem to think we don't understand the position that they are finding themselves in. I can say for a fact that almost every single one of us here has been in the exact same position at one point or another. Hell...there are probably still threads in this guild, where I am debating the other side of it. We are not unsympathetic, and we are more than willing to help anyone who is willing to listen, but that is the key - LISTENING! I know I sound like a broken record, but it is usually only when someone refuses to acknowledge even the remote possibility that they might be wrong (or refuses to make any type of effort to discuss - rationally - the situation) that we tend to get a little cranky. Are there times when we could phrase it a bit better... sure, but it gets old after awhile.

From personal experience, it is much better for someone to tell you straight out that you are wrong about something, than to let you wander around in ignorance - even if they are afraid of hurting your feelings. You brought up T'vaan - ask around sometime about how far that joke went before someone had the decency to point out that it was a joke, and the lingering effects that joke had on some people.

Quote:
I also realize labels can be silly, but to quite a few people, it means something. It's their identity, it's what they ARE, to them. And having no label means.. they're nothing.


No one is taking their practices/path away from them, and definitely not taking their identity. It makes no sense to cling to a label that doesn't accurately describe what they are, and if continuing to cling to that label is more important than truth and correct knowledge, then I think that is a sad, sad thing. I certainly would not want the foundations of my spiritual practices to be based on erroneous information, but I guess that's just me.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:15 am
But to them, that word is accurate. Even if to someone else it's not. It's what they've called themselves for <X timeframe>. They may realize that it means something completely different to someone else, but it still holds their meaning for them. I just feel kinda bad at the ones that get really upset due to finding out the truth and I want to make it more fair in some way. I realize them giving up the title is fair to Wiccans, but then I feel like it's not fair to the others who now have nothing to call themselves.
I dislike everyone thinking everyone else is the bad guy. And I wish it would just POOF be fixed. I figure coming up with a new name, that gets popular and gets published instead, might fix that. That's my idea. Then everyone would be happy and there wouldn't be this argument anymore! biggrin  

kage no neko

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too2sweet
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:55 am
kage no neko
But to them, that word is accurate. Even if to someone else it's not.


Words have meanings - and if one has been using it in the wrong way, and suddenly finds out that it means something completely different, then the intelligent thing to do is stop using it incorrectly. Just because they feel their use is accurate, doesn't make it so. Yes it can be painful, but if one is honest with oneself, then one will make the necessary adjustments in one's thinking.

Quote:
I realize them giving up the title is fair to Wiccans, but then I feel like it's not fair to the others who now have nothing to call themselves.


We all sympathize. We understand that it isn't their fault, but there are other labels that are readily available, that are more suitable. It's their choice not to use them.

Quote:
I dislike everyone thinking everyone else is the bad guy. And I wish it would just POOF be fixed. I figure coming up with a new name, that gets popular and gets published instead, might fix that. That's my idea. Then everyone would be happy and there wouldn't be this argument anymore! biggrin


Until those people who are only out for money, stop purposefully spreading misinformation, it will never stop. If you want to be upset with anyone - it should be them and the people that publish them, for allowing this crap to happen in the first place (not only allowing it to happen, but actively continuing to encourage it). Again it comes down to honesty and integrity - if any of them had it, we wouldn't be in this position.  
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