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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:53 pm
Teh Bloody Princess
So basically there is no such thing as solitary wicca?


That's it exactly. There is no such thing as Solitary Wicca.  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:52 pm
Teh Bloody Princess
So basically there is no such thing as solitary wicca?


Yup  

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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:43 am
I have noticed some people here doing something, that requires comment:

It is not ok to describe yourself in our guild as an 'eclectic pagan', but continue to describe yourself as 'Wiccan' elsewhere.


It's stated in the Guild info that we will be checking your other posts on Gaia. And we do....so really, why are people doing this?
Did you not think we would notice?

This is intellectual dishonesty. What's worse, it's deliberate and willful ignorance, on a level I can't begin to understand.

Doing this is insulting to the Guild crew, and your fellow Guild members, here at Midnight Moon. If you are telling us one thing, and the rest of Gaia another, you're lying to us here. And if you lie about one thing, how are we to trust anything else you may have to say.

If you want to participate in Midnight Moon, do so honestly. Be honest with us here, and with yourself. If you can't do that, this is not the guild for you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I am, and on some levels hurt - I really thought we were making headway on the subject of Wicca. Then I see this, and it's like being slapped in the face.

I'm sorry if factual reality is inconvenient to your current belief structure, but we're not in the business of supporting people's delusions and fantasies here. If it's such a problem for you to accept our position on Wicca - well, there are other guilds out there.
-M.  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:27 pm
There is such a thing as a solitary witch. They follow whatever religion and they practice magic, but I'm pretty sure they don't call themselves Wiccan. I guess I could fit into that category, but I'm still discovering.  

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Morgandria

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:59 pm
Aakosir
There is such a thing as a solitary witch. They follow whatever religion and they practice magic, but I'm pretty sure they don't call themselves Wiccan. I guess I could fit into that category, but I'm still discovering.


I have no issues with that. I myself can identify as a solitary witch. But that isn't the issue here.

Some of our more recent members have joined other pagan guilds on Gaia at the same time as joining us, and comparing their intro posts between the guilds shows me that here they're claiming "eclectic" and at other places they are clearly claiming "Wiccan".

It isn't a hypothetical situation. People are saying one thing in one place, and another thing in another.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:47 pm
Morgandria

It is not ok to describe yourself in our guild as an 'eclectic pagan', but continue to describe yourself as 'Wiccan' elsewhere.


eek Wow. Aren't we being a little extreme? Is this issue so damned important that the guild is going to belittle the people who disagree with this perspective and drive them underground for thinking differently? I'll confess I never thought I'd see it taken to this level. I can understand not wanting the guild to become bogged down by terminological arguments and laying down operational definitions for purposes of discussion here. This latest announcement, though, crosses the line between being practical and being unnecessarily judgmental towards those who disagree with the guild's dogma.

Understand that I don't expect you at all to make any changes based on this critique. I would actually be shocked if you did. I simply hope that you've carefully considered the wisdom of taking such an extremist stance on an issue that could easily be resolved with a respectful "agree to disagree."  

Starlock


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:55 pm
Starlock
Morgandria

It is not ok to describe yourself in our guild as an 'eclectic pagan', but continue to describe yourself as 'Wiccan' elsewhere.


eek Wow. Aren't we being a little extreme?

Yes, Starlock. Of course asking people to show some ******** honesty is extreme. Shame on us. Because we all know the strongest foundations for friendships (and spiritualities) are built on lies and mistrust.
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Is this issue so damned important that the guild is going to belittle the people who disagree with this perspective and drive them underground for thinking differently?

You've missed the point. Entirely. But that isn't surprising coming from you.
The point isn't that really that they disagree, but rather that while they are posting in this guild they claim one thing, but then turn around in another place and claim the exact opposite.
It isn't belittling people to ask them to speak honestly.
Quote:
I'll confess I never thought I'd see it taken to this level.

How the ******** were you raised that asking people to be honest is such a horrible thing??
Quote:
I can understand not wanting the guild to become bogged down by terminological arguments and laying down operational definitions for purposes of discussion here. This latest announcement, though, crosses the line between being practical and being unnecessarily judgmental towards those who disagree with the guild's dogma.

Why does asking people to be honest about the things they claim mean we're judgmental? If people want to be bold-faced liars, they can do it elsewhere. I can think of very few people in this guild who are in the business of being lied to and going along with it.
I think you're reading what Starlock *wants* to read and ignoring the actual meaning of the post. But that is par for the course and I wouldn't expect any better of you.

Quote:
Understand that I don't expect you at all to make any changes based on this critique. I would actually be shocked if you did. I simply hope that you've carefully considered the wisdom of taking such an extremist stance on an issue that could easily be resolved with a respectful "agree to disagree."

No, this isn't a simple "agree to disagree." This is asking people to be ******** honest. I can't think of many people who would just sit back and "agree to disagree" while the people they're talking to are lying to them. If people fail to be honest then I personally see no reason to treat with them, much less extend hospitality.

Maybe you should learn some goddamn reading comprehension before you climb up on your shaky soapbox.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:18 pm
Starlock, to be honest you pretty much only ever seem to speak when you want to complain about our standpoint on Wicca. If you're happier with people being intellectually dishonest, so long as everyone pretends to be cheerful and get along, that's your lookout. But frankly I have no idea why you're still a part of this guild. You have no respect for the religion of Wicca, and little respect for the members of this guild, preferring instead to cling to your petty misconceptions and cry "judgmental!" or "extremist!" at the rest of us.

I have no idea what leads you to this form of tunnel vision. This is not about, and has never been about, simple disagreement. This is about honesty, understanding a faith and how it works, about research and information, and about honour. You seem like a person to whom these things would matter. If this is the case, take some time - for a change - to actually understand the Wiccan religion and why this is so important to Wiccans and to those of us who respect them and their religion.

If this is not the case, frankly I want nothing further to do with you.  

Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:26 am
Starlock: I believe that both honesty and consistency are good policies. Asking you to be both honest and consistent isn't extreme. We are taught as young children to always speak the truth and be honest.

If you can't be honest in this guild and lie in other guilds then how the hell can we trust you? How do we know what you're saying is truth and not full of lies?

I do have a big problem with dishonest people more so than with inconsistent people. If you choose to be dishonest then there is nothing more that needs to be discussed, as I cannot trust you.  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm
I think it's problematic for us to think of this as being about honesty and intellectual integrity. I think it's much simpler than that. At the risk of sounding overdramatic:

This is a Witch War.

There are only victims on both sides, created by both sides building up walls and refusing to consider the possibility that they might just be wrong (aka, refusing to "agree to disagree" wink . Both sides have felt attacked, both sides have felt bullied, both sides have felt pain.

I have a strong suspicion that the reason why there are people identifying as "Eclectic Pagan" in one place and "Wiccan" in another is because they honestly feel threatened and afraid of you guys (just as you might be feeling threatened by them?). They're afraid to express what they truly believe here, so naturally they have to do it somewhere else. However, you also stalk them elsewhere on Gaia Online to ensure they comply with what you believe is correct and proper. I think this crosses the line. It's bad enough that they feel uncomfortable being who they are in this guild; it's worse that now they'll feel like they're being watched everywhere else.

While this new policy doesn't personally apply to me (even by my own more liberal standards I wouldn't call myself Wiccan) I still felt the need to say something because it makes me very sad that this issue continues to put up walls. Having been on Gaia Online since 2004, not once has this stopped. It's really not that hard to agree to disagree. I mean, I think you guys are full of it. But I still respect you and yes, I even trust you in a fashion because you're standing up for what you believe in, even if I personally think it's wrong. As irritating as it can be, I respect that strength of will - that passion - and it's part of why I'm still part of this guild. I also don't think the value of what you guys have to say on this - or other topics - should be overshadowed by this one issue.

So. Is it worth being the "Wicca police" given it perpetuates this stupid conflict? I don't think it is. I suspect you guys disagree, which is why, again, I'm not expecting a change in this guild's policy or how you carry yourselves in other forums; it would be dishonest of you by your own standards to do anything else and I understand that completely. This is simply me being HONEST with you. You did, after all, ask for it. wink  

Starlock


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:02 pm
Starlock
I think it's problematic for us to think of this as being about honesty and intellectual integrity. I think it's much simpler than that. At the risk of sounding overdramatic:

This is a Witch War.

No, it's most likely problematic for YOU to see this as being about honesty and intellectual honesty since you have shown over time to possess neither quality.

Quote:
There are only victims on both sides, created by both sides building up walls and refusing to consider the possibility that they might just be wrong (aka, refusing to "agree to disagree" wink . Both sides have felt attacked, both sides have felt bullied, both sides have felt pain.

Bullshit. I am not a victim. I do not feel attacked.

Quote:
I have a strong suspicion that the reason why there are people identifying as "Eclectic Pagan" in one place and "Wiccan" in another is because they honestly feel threatened and afraid of you guys (just as you might be feeling threatened by them?).

Then the adult, mature thing is to talk about it, not be double-faced. The adult, mature thing is to discuss it like a ******** adult, and not whine about being persecuted.
And no, I don't feel threatened by those folks. If you keep projecting, you'll break something there Starlock.
Quote:
They're afraid to express what they truly believe here, so naturally they have to do it somewhere else.

Then why ever bother with a place where they can't "express what they truly believe"??
Quote:
However, you also stalk them elsewhere on Gaia Online to ensure they comply with what you believe is correct and proper.

Checking post history is not stalking. If that were the case I would have "stalked" everyone in this guild, Sanguina Cruenta's guild, and my guild.
Coming across posts from other people while you're checking out the guild because you might actually want to join it yourself is not stalking either.
Sorry, try again.

Quote:
I think this crosses the line.

You know a good bit about line crossing, don't you?
Quote:
It's bad enough that they feel uncomfortable being who they are in this guild; it's worse that now they'll feel like they're being watched everywhere else.

As I've said above, if they don't feel comfortable in this guild and can't express who they truly are, why are they still here? Why are they still bothering with it?

You can put away your Big Brother complex now. Not a single one of us logs on to Gaia to monitor every single member of this guild while they are elsewhere on Gaia.

Quote:
While this new policy doesn't personally apply to me (even by my own more liberal standards I wouldn't call myself Wiccan) I still felt the need to say something because it makes me very sad that this issue continues to put up walls.

Really, if asking people to be honest is "putting up walls" then they are walls I'm ******** grateful to have.
Quote:
Having been on Gaia Online since 2004, not once has this stopped.

Good for you, here's a ******** cookie.
Quote:
It's really not that hard to agree to disagree.

If that's so, then why can't you agree to disagree with us?
Or is it only not that hard when the other person is doing it?
Quote:
I mean, I think you guys are full of it.

It's mutual.
Quote:
But I still respect you

No, you do not.
If you respected us even an ounce, you would not sit here and prattle on, asking us to be okay with being lied to so that someone with a snoflayk complex can get their ego rocks off.
If you really respected us, you would not sit there and accuse us of stalking other guild members around Gaia.

Quote:
and yes, I even trust you in a fashion because you're standing up for what you believe in, even if I personally think it's wrong.

I don't want your trust.
Choke on it.
Quote:
As irritating as it can be, I respect that strength of will - that passion - and it's part of why I'm still part of this guild.

As I've said above and in other posts, it is blatantly clear that you do not in fact respect anything about this guild. You only crawl out of whatever s**t hole you hide away in to post and point fingers about how we're "wrong" or "judgmental" while never actually posting any sources or proof of your ******** own and quite frankly I and a good number of others in this guild are ******** sick of it.

Quote:
So. Is it worth being the "Wicca police" given it perpetuates this stupid conflict?

"Wicca police"?
Is this more of that good ol' Starlock respect that you mentioned a little while ago?

Quote:
I don't think it is.

I honestly don't give a s**t what you think. Literally, I don't - the s**t would have more value than your thoughts.
Quote:
I suspect you guys disagree, which is why, again, I'm not expecting a change in this guild's policy or how you carry yourselves in other forums; it would be dishonest of you by your own standards to do anything else and I understand that completely.

Holy ******** s**t, Starlock had a logical thought.
Quote:
This is simply me being HONEST with you.

You were not honest. You said you respected us and then turned around, asked us to be okay with being lied to, and then dubbed us the "Wicca Police."
If that is how you were taught to be respectful, I'm starting to think you should've been taken away from your parents and placed in foster care.
Quote:
You did, after all, ask for it. wink

No, no I didn't actually. But then, it seems whenever you post no one actually asks to hear/read your persecution-ridden word vomit.  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:39 pm
Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
I think it's problematic for us to think of this as being about honesty and intellectual integrity. I think it's much simpler than that. At the risk of sounding overdramatic:

This is a Witch War.

No, it's most likely problematic for YOU to see this as being about honesty and intellectual honesty since you have shown over time to possess neither quality.


I would think you'd be able to come up with a more rational response than to resort to personal attacks, Violet. It's a logical fallacy to dismiss someone due to supposed flaws in personal character. But you already knew that, I'm sure.

Regardless, I didn't say it wasn't at all about these two issues. Obviously, for some of you, it is. I'm simply pointing out that for others, it's not.

Violet Song jat Shariff
Bullshit. I am not a victim. I do not feel attacked.


Really? I usually presume that when someone reacts to posts with venom and anger, it is because they feel attacked or offended in some way. Pardon, then, for making what I mistakenly believed was a reasonable assumption.

Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
I have a strong suspicion that the reason why there are people identifying as "Eclectic Pagan" in one place and "Wiccan" in another is because they honestly feel threatened and afraid of you guys (just as you might be feeling threatened by them?).

Then the adult, mature thing is to talk about it, not be double-faced. The adult, mature thing is to discuss it like a ******** adult, and not whine about being persecuted.


On some level I agree with you here. However, given the average age of the Gaia Online user base, does it make sense to expect this from them? They're not adults, nor are they mature (many of them at least; age isn't a surefire indicator after all). I'm not quite convinced that even if one possesses these qualities, if that necessarily means the best - or mature if you will - option is to talk about it. If the other person is taking an aggressive stance and making personal attacks, I can quite understand NOT wanting to engage in a conversation with said person.


Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
They're afraid to express what they truly believe here, so naturally they have to do it somewhere else.

Then why ever bother with a place where they can't "express what they truly believe"??


Fair enough. It sure puts them on the spot though, to make an announcement like has been made here. xd

Violet Song jat Shariff

You can put away your Big Brother complex now. Not a single one of us logs on to Gaia to monitor every single member of this guild while they are elsewhere on Gaia.


I don't imagine you do. The way the announcement is phrased though, does sound a little bit like stalking. I might have read too much into it, just as I think you read too much into my use of the word "stalking."

Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
It's really not that hard to agree to disagree.

If that's so, then why can't you agree to disagree with us?


I thought I had gotten across that I DO agree to disagree with you. I do think from a certain point of view, you're correct on the issue. I just don't think that point of view is "objective truth" in the least. I don't try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong with elaborately constructed arguments. I don't insult you with labels like "willfully ignorant" for having a different opinion than I do. Most of the time, I stay out of the discussion on this item entirely. Primarily to avoid things such as this silly argument, especially with people who keep making personal attacks.

Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
But I still respect you

No, you do not.
If you respected us even an ounce, you would not sit here and prattle on, asking us to be okay with being lied to so that someone with a snoflayk complex can get their ego rocks off.


Please don't presume to tell me what I do or don't think (unless of course you have supernatural mind-reading powers... if so, my mistake. stare ). Understand that the fact that I respect you does not mean I LIKE you. Given your continually abrasive treatment of me, I quite DISLIKE you. For me, that's actually a pretty rare honor.

I also don't recall saying you need to be okay with being lied to. Clearly, that's stupid. Moreso, I'd like to encourage consideration of how the other side feels. You know, that empathy thing. sweatdrop

Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
As irritating as it can be, I respect that strength of will - that passion - and it's part of why I'm still part of this guild.

As I've said above and in other posts, it is blatantly clear that you do not in fact respect anything about this guild. You only crawl out of whatever s**t hole you hide away in to post and point fingers about how we're "wrong" or "judgmental" while never actually posting any sources or proof of your ******** own and quite frankly I and a good number of others in this guild are ******** sick of it.


If you really feel this way, there's this little thing called a ban button next to my name. Use it if you so feel inclined; you're at least a moderator, so I know you have the ability. Given how venomous you've been, I'm a little surprised you haven't hit it already. I can only conclude that you enjoy arguing and insulting people.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I honestly don't give a s**t what you think. Literally, I don't - the s**t would have more value than your thoughts.


Then why did you take the time to reply to me? If you really didn't care, wouldn't it be more logical to not respond at all?

I agree, though that s**t would have more value than my thoughts. It has more value than yours too. Feces have physical substance and make great fertilizer for our photosynthetic friends. Thoughts don't do much good until they manifest; until they do, they're just daydreams.

Violet Song jat Shariff
Starlock
You did, after all, ask for it. wink

No, no I didn't actually. But then, it seems whenever you post no one actually asks to hear/read your persecution-ridden word vomit.


Sorry, but I mistook the great value you place on honesty to mean that I should be honest with you. That's what I was doing. Replying to someone's post also generally suggests a request for a response. Just as well, nobody forced you to read anything. You chose to read it, and then, to take much time to reply. It is most... puzzling.

....

You do realize that by making personal attacks like this, you're sort of proving the "persecution" bit right? You're clearly persecuting (aka, hostility and ill treatment) me. Gosh, if anyone ever wonders why some of us on the other side feel persecuted, here's a great example of why. xd

Lastly, if you do respond back Violet, don't respect one in kind. Excepting if next time you're more... civilized with your response. Most of the time I ignore your replies to my posts because they're much like your last one. As mentioned, I'm disinclined converse with people who make personal attacks. But unfortunately for you, today I was bored enough to bother. mrgreen  

Starlock


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:47 pm
Starlock
I would think you'd be able to come up with a more rational response than to resort to personal attacks, Violet. It's a logical fallacy to dismiss someone due to supposed flaws in personal character. But you already knew that, I'm sure.

Regardless, I didn't say it wasn't at all about these two issues. Obviously, for some of you, it is. I'm simply pointing out that for others, it's not.

It is not a personal attack; that is behavior you have displayed time after time after time whenever you decide to show your face in this guild. I am amused that you choose to cry a logical fallacy when every other thought that falls out of your mouth is terribly illogical.

Quote:
Really? I usually presume that when someone reacts to posts with venom and anger, it is because they feel attacked or offended in some way. Pardon, then, for making what I mistakenly believed was a reasonable assumption.

Your very existence offends me.

Starlock
On some level I agree with you here. However, given the average age of the Gaia Online user base, does it make sense to expect this from them? They're not adults, nor are they mature (many of them at least; age isn't a surefire indicator after all). I'm not quite convinced that even if one possesses these qualities, if that necessarily means the best - or mature if you will - option is to talk about it. If the other person is taking an aggressive stance and making personal attacks, I can quite understand NOT wanting to engage in a conversation with said person.

One would also expect a puppy to chew on everything it can get its mouth on; however, you quickly teach it that is not acceptable.

Starlock
I thought I had gotten across that I DO agree to disagree with you. I do think from a certain point of view, you're correct on the issue. I just don't think that point of view is "objective truth" in the least. I don't try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong with elaborately constructed arguments. I don't insult you with labels like "willfully ignorant" for having a different opinion than I do. Most of the time, I stay out of the discussion on this item entirely. Primarily to avoid things such as this silly argument, especially with people who keep making personal attacks.

Except, that you don't actually *try* to stay out of this sort of argument. Most of my own conflict with you comes from the fact that you will often stop into these sort of arguments, throw around something about how the rest of us are "judgmental" or "extremist" or "traditionalist" and then when someone replies to challenge you, you are suddenly MIA. You're an expert at dropping your opinion and waxing philosophical, but there's no substance there.

Starlock
Please don't presume to tell me what I do or don't think (unless of course you have supernatural mind-reading powers... if so, my mistake. stare ).

I don't need to read your ******** mind; it's right there for all to see in your post.
Quote:
Understand that the fact that I respect you does not mean I LIKE you. Given your continually abrasive treatment of me, I quite DISLIKE you. For me, that's actually a pretty rare honor.

As I've said and will REPEAT FOR THE HARD OF UNDERSTANDING, asking us to sit back and be okay with being lied to is not a sign of respect.

Quote:
I also don't recall saying you need to be okay with being lied to. Clearly, that's stupid. Moreso, I'd like to encourage consideration of how the other side feels. You know, that empathy thing. sweatdrop

You want us to just differ to "agree to disagree" when this is not a situation where that line applies. At all. Would you tell the people in a nasty love triangle to just "Agree to disagree"? If I state I am a Yale grad. (as pertinent to my job) and my employer finds out otherwise, how well would it go over to say "Oh let's just agree to disagree."?

To simply want to dismiss the situation with "agree to disagree" is to not fully understand the situation and to dismiss dishonesty.

I know how those folks feel. I have been there, done that, and wear the shirt regularly. And you know what? No one held my hand and coddled me and told me how yooneek and speshul I was. No one said "Oh you want to be Wiccan but don't want to actually follow the rules that the religion's creator set down? Oh it's okay you can go ahead and call yourself Wiccan anyways." I struggled with it for a good long while. It was a process to understand Wicca and how it worked (from the outside perspective) and why. And all of that work and mental adjustment has made so much difference in so many areas of my life.

Starlock
If you really feel this way, there's this little thing called a ban button next to my name. Use it if you so feel inclined; you're at least a moderator, so I know you have the ability. Given how venomous you've been, I'm a little surprised you haven't hit it already. I can only conclude that you enjoy arguing and insulting people.

Nope; I respect the hospitality that too2sweet has extended to me in allowing me to be a moderator.

Quote:
Then why did you take the time to reply to me? If you really didn't care, wouldn't it be more logical to not respond at all?

I respond so that when others read through a thread, they can see examples of what is and is not acceptable.

Starlock
Sorry, but I mistook the great value you place on honesty to mean that I should be honest with you. That's what I was doing. Replying to someone's post also generally suggests a request for a response. Just as well, nobody forced you to read anything. You chose to read it, and then, to take much time to reply. It is most... puzzling.

Really? That's funny because I can probably search through the threads in this guild and find a s**t-ton of instances where you posted, were replied to, and didn't ******** respond at all to anybody.
Honesty is important. However, I have already covered in my last post to you why you were not actually honest.

....

[quoteYou do realize that by making personal attacks like this, you're sort of proving the "persecution" bit right? You're clearly persecuting (aka, hostility and ill treatment) me.
Hostility and ill treatment are not persecution on their own. I do not treat you such because of your religious persuasion, your race, your sex/gender, or things like that. I treat you this way because some most of the things you say are totally off-base and nonsensical.
Now, the Jews? They were persecuted. The Tutsis in Rwanda? They were definitely persecuted as well. Homosexuals in Iran? That's persecution. To suggest that the way you and those like you are treated are even remotely on the same level is revolting and only further shows the lows you and those like you will sink to.
If that's your definition of persecution, holy s**t no wonder you have such a problem with the people in this guild.
Quote:
Gosh, if anyone ever wonders why some of us on the other side feel persecuted, here's a great example of why. xd

Yep, because you don't ******** understand what it is to actually be persecuted.

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Lastly, if you do respond back Violet, don't respect one in kind.

Ya know, for someone who wants to throw around statements of logic, wouldn't it have been logical to put this in the beginning of your post rather than at the end in an edit, at that?
Quote:
Excepting if next time you're more... civilized with your response.

You do not deserve civility.
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Most of the time I ignore your replies to my posts because they're much like your last one.

I figured as much.
But that still doesn't excuse the fact that you fail also to respond to Sanguina Cruenta and/or Morgandria.
Quote:
As mentioned, I'm disinclined converse with people who make personal attacks. But unfortunately for you, today I was bored enough to bother. mrgreen

Bored? Or tired of being elusive and spineless?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:45 am
Starlock
I think it's problematic for us to think of this as being about honesty and intellectual integrity. I think it's much simpler than that. At the risk of sounding overdramatic:

This is a Witch War.

There are only victims on both sides, created by both sides building up walls and refusing to consider the possibility that they might just be wrong (aka, refusing to "agree to disagree" wink . Both sides have felt attacked, both sides have felt bullied, both sides have felt pain.

I have a strong suspicion that the reason why there are people identifying as "Eclectic Pagan" in one place and "Wiccan" in another is because they honestly feel threatened and afraid of you guys (just as you might be feeling threatened by them?). They're afraid to express what they truly believe here, so naturally they have to do it somewhere else. However, you also stalk them elsewhere on Gaia Online to ensure they comply with what you believe is correct and proper. I think this crosses the line. It's bad enough that they feel uncomfortable being who they are in this guild; it's worse that now they'll feel like they're being watched everywhere else.

While this new policy doesn't personally apply to me (even by my own more liberal standards I wouldn't call myself Wiccan) I still felt the need to say something because it makes me very sad that this issue continues to put up walls. Having been on Gaia Online since 2004, not once has this stopped. It's really not that hard to agree to disagree. I mean, I think you guys are full of it. But I still respect you and yes, I even trust you in a fashion because you're standing up for what you believe in, even if I personally think it's wrong. As irritating as it can be, I respect that strength of will - that passion - and it's part of why I'm still part of this guild. I also don't think the value of what you guys have to say on this - or other topics - should be overshadowed by this one issue.

So. Is it worth being the "Wicca police" given it perpetuates this stupid conflict? I don't think it is. I suspect you guys disagree, which is why, again, I'm not expecting a change in this guild's policy or how you carry yourselves in other forums; it would be dishonest of you by your own standards to do anything else and I understand that completely. This is simply me being HONEST with you. You did, after all, ask for it. wink


I just thought I might put in my two cents while hopefully avoiding too many arguments.

We all have a right to post our opinions here so I have no problem with you posting yours. Hopefully you will not view this as me saying you should not be allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

So whilst I respect your opinion I have to disagree with you on a few matters.

I believe that Morgandria has every right to defend her religion and I completely understand why she and others in this guild are upset that people are lying to them.
I also do not think that Morgandria was trying to belittle anyone (of course I am not her so I cannot say exactly what her intentions were) and maybe for some people this issue is 'damned important' enough for them to stand up for what they believe.

I understand the reason some people may claim to be "Eclectic Pagan" in one place and "Wiccan" in another. Many of us know pretty damn well what it is like to be on the other side. Many of us have been on the other side. Many of us have felt intimidate and upset when the 'Wicca police' have come along. And many of us have come from that experience stronger and wiser!
I cannot speak for others but for me I am quite thankful to those who challenged me and made me actually think for once. Even the one's who were assholes about it! Especially the ones who were assholes about it because it was them who helped me learn and grow the most. I know I wouldn't be where I am today without them and I know I wouldn't continue to learn and grow without people to continue to challenge me and my views.

I respect that you want to keep the peace and I respect you for wanting to 'stick up for the little guy' (in fact I veiw it as quite honarable) but in my experience and in this situation I don't think it is the best way. Sometimes people need to be confronted rather than given a pat on the head and told to go about what they were doing.

I had a few other things I wanted to say but it is getting late and my mind is starting to shut down. Hopefully what I have written is understandable sweatdrop  

Esselean

Tipsy Fairy

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Sanguina Cruenta
Vice Captain

Eloquent Bloodsucker

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:08 am
Apparently asking Starlock to show a little respect, honestly and honour was too much for her even to respond to. rolleyes I am hurt.  
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