Santa Claus is not the Devil

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Fushigi na Butterfly

But until they're a certain age, God isn't going to be real to them.

Matthew 18:3 (KJV) "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus says that we must have faith like little children. He wouldn't tell us that and then not be real to kids.

Fushigi na Butterfly

They'll believe, but it'll just be out of "well, Mommy and Daddy say it's true, so it must be."

Some may, but there's no harm in that, just as long as when they're older and need to understand the why more that they do. They could also believe "because that's what the Bible says." Children do not need to understand the why God is real at a young age as much as they will when they're older because that's when they'll have to defend their faith with more than just the above reasons.

Fushigi na Butterfly

The decision for Christ will have to come at a much later time, when they actually know what they're getting into.

I will admit that when I was first saved, I really didn't understand truly what salvation was; but I reason that to having been raised Catholic and then when I was put into a Christian school in grade seven at a Baptist church, that's only when I first began to hear about "getting saved." Even though I didn't understand it, I would say I was saved when I had asked for God's Salvation.

Jesus says we must be like little children. They'll believe what they hear. Regardless of whether or not the understand it is immaterial.  

[Gilwen]

hot_wheels_turbo_racing

Jesus says we must be like little children. They'll believe what they hear. Regardless of whether or not the understand it is immaterial.

I think you're taking His words out of context. Jesus never meant to suggest that we shouldn't try to understand our faith, or that it should be a faith devoid of logical thought. When Jesus said that we must be like little children, He obviously did not mean that we should be like them in every way.
Should we use horrible grammar?
Should we intentionally fail at simple math problems?
Should we pee our pants and sing songs on a playground?
Should we throw rocks at the opposite sex to show our attraction for them?
Obviously not. Neither should we embrace immaturity in our belief and understanding of God's will. Jesus is not talking about maturity when He tells us to be like children. Here is a pertinent verse on maturity:

Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Does any part of that verse suggest that we should ignore deep, abstract ideas and forsake critical thinking for blissful ignorance? No. So Jesus obviously didn't mean that blind, superficial belief, such as that experienced by a young child, is encouraged among adult Christians.
~Gilwen  

[Gilwen]

I would also appreciate any personal attacks or arguments in this thread to cease. I don't want finger-pointing in response to this post. I just want the arguments to stop. If anyone has a legitimate problem with another user, please PM me or another moderator and we will do our best to resolve the situation. Insults and playing the victim do nothing but detract from the debate at hand.
~Gilwen  

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Gilwen

I think you're taking His words out of context.

You think wrong.

Gilwen

Jesus never meant to suggest that we shouldn't try to understand our faith, or that it should be a faith devoid of logical thought. When Jesus said that we must be like little children, He obviously did not mean that we should be like them in every way.

No, He said that we should believe like little children. As children will believe anything they're told, so should we believe without question when it comes to believeing in God.

Gilwen

Should we use horrible grammar?
Should we intentionally fail at simple math problems?
Should we pee our pants and sing songs on a playground?
Should we throw rocks at the opposite sex to show our attraction for them?

No, no, no, and no, and where any of that relates to the topic at hand, I can't find.

Gilwen

No. So Jesus obviously didn't mean that blind, superficial belief, such as that experienced by a young child, is encouraged among adult Christians.

Of course not, the thing was the children believe and do not doubt.  

[Gilwen]

hot_wheels_turbo_racing

Gilwen

Jesus never meant to suggest that we shouldn't try to understand our faith, or that it should be a faith devoid of logical thought. When Jesus said that we must be like little children, He obviously did not mean that we should be like them in every way.

No, He said that we should believe like little children. As children will believe anything they're told, so should we believe without question when it comes to believeing in God.

No, He said that we should become like little children. Your statements concerning believing without question or thought (as children do) are completely unsupported by the Bible. Read Matthew 18:3-4

Quote:

Gilwen

Should we use horrible grammar?
Should we intentionally fail at simple math problems?
Should we pee our pants and sing songs on a playground?
Should we throw rocks at the opposite sex to show our attraction for them?

No, no, no, and no, and where any of that relates to the topic at hand, I can't find.

Try looking in the context of what I was saying:

I

He obviously did not mean that we should be like them in every way.
Should we use horrible grammar?
Should we intentionally fail at simple math problems?
Should we pee our pants and sing songs on a playground?
Should we throw rocks at the opposite sex to show our attraction for them?
Obviously not. Neither should we embrace immaturity in our belief and understanding of God's will.

Seems clear to me.

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Gilwen

No. So Jesus obviously didn't mean that blind, superficial belief, such as that experienced by a young child, is encouraged among adult Christians.

Of course not, the thing was the children believe and do not doubt.

Nope. The thing was children are humble and innocent. Please find a verse that supports your suggestion. I don't think the Bible condones instant belief without thought or comparison with other Scriptures. For example, if a teaching (even a verse) is taken out of context, it can have a completely different meaning, such as in the case of us "becoming like children." This is how the Jesus wanted us to become like children:

Matthew 18:3-4
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Edit: If anything, we are supposed to have faith like a child in that the belief of children is pure and that they become excited about things in which they believe. But to say that we should mimic the way that children believe everything they're told is unbiblical.  

[Gilwen]

I have to say, with regards to the topic at hand, the kindest, most genuine Christian I know (including all of us involved in this thread) believed in Santa Claus until she was about 9. In light of the claims that telling one's children about Santa is harmful, it would follow that she would be somehow harmed or damaged as a result of her upbringing. She is not. She trusts her parents. She knows right from wrong. She believes in salvation through faith, not works.
So it would seem, a practical application of the hypothesis that Santa is harmful would not fail to support that very hypothesis.
Not that I'm going to tell my kids to believe in Santa, but it's not (as evidenced by my friend) exactly the twisted, perverting concept that some posts have made it out to be either.  

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Gilwen

No, He said that we should become like little children.

And how do little children believe? Very simply

Gilwen

Nope. The thing was children are humble and innocent.

And humble and innocent people will believe anything they're told.

Gilwen

But to say that we should mimic the way that children believe everything they're told is unbiblical.

I never said that. I said that like little children, we should believe the truth about God without any doubt.

Gilwen

In light of the claims that telling one's children about Santa is harmful, it would follow that she would be somehow harmed or damaged as a result of her upbringing.

Damanged, no, differenced, yes

Gilwen

She trusts her parents. She knows right from wrong. She believes in salvation through faith, not works.
So it would seem, a practical application of the hypothesis that Santa is harmful would not fail to support that very hypothesis.

Has nobody paid any attention to Woodlock's words back on the first page?

Gilwen

it's not (as evidenced by my friend) exactly the twisted, perverting concept that some posts have made it out to be either.

Just because your friend turned out okay doesn't mean that eveyone whose been duped into believing in Santa does. Belief in Santa can cause much harm. Plus, it's totally unnecessary.

What part is it that people are having trouble understanding regarding where I'm coming from?  

[Gilwen]

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Gilwen

No, He said that we should become like little children.

And how do little children believe? Very simply

But Jesus said to BECOME like little children, not to BELIEVE like they do. He was not suggesting that we become like children in every way, but in a specific way: humility. You're making far-fetched assumptions, because Jesus never told us to believe everything we're told. In fact, this is what He did tell us:

Matthew 10:16
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Quote:

Gilwen

Nope. The thing was children are humble and innocent.

And humble and innocent people will believe anything they're told.

So we should believe anything we're told? There is no Scriptural basis for this idea. It's quite possible to be humble and innocent while still being wary and thoughtful, since Jesus expects us to be all of those things, according to Scripture.

Quote:

I never said that. I said that like little children, we should believe the truth about God without any doubt.

Yes, but without careful consideration of the Bible, and checking teachings with Scripture, we cannot know that our interpretations of Scripture are not totally wrong. Therefore, we should not believe everything we hear concerning God without question, which is what you seemed to suggest when you said:

"Jesus says we must be like little children. They'll believe what they hear. Regardless of whether or not the understand it is immaterial."

and

"And humble and innocent people will believe anything they're told."

Quote:

Has nobody paid any attention to Woodlock's words back on the first page?

Yes, I've paid attention to them (in fact, I even addressed his comment about Santa being a god of works by saying that my friend's theology is perfectly sound despite her childhood belief in Santa) and I disagree that Santa Claus is harmful. Is that alright with you?

Quote:

Just because your friend turned out okay doesn't mean that eveyone whose been duped into believing in Santa does. Belief in Santa can cause much harm. Plus, it's totally unnecessary.

I have provided a case in which belief in Santa did not cause harm. To substantiate your argument, please provide any proof that it is likely to cause harm. I agree that it's unnecessary, so there's no use in continuing to argue that point.

Quote:

What part is it that people are having trouble understanding regarding where I'm coming from?

I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with you. You seem to have a very difficult time coming to grips with the fact that people can disagree with you without failing to understand what you're saying.

~Gilwen  

[Silent Expressor]

I am one of those people who often says Santa=Satan. My reasoning is 1. Santa is an anagram of Satan. 2. Santa Clause takes away from the real meaning of Christmas, and turns it into a day in which everyone becomes selfish and only wants presents. I have no problem with with the real Santa Clause (Saint Nick) because he was a Christian to my understanding. But the modern day views of Santa Clause i think are very....strange. First as far as santa clause being fat. Saint Nicholas was from what I understand a pastor, pastors typically dont make a lot of money, therefore he probabally didnt have a lot to spend on food so he would have more than likely been fairly skinny. Second Santa giving coal to childeren when they are "naughty". When Saint Nicholas was around giving coal to kid meant he had something to put in his fire which meant he wasnt cold, so why did society twist it to being something given to "naughty" kids. My thoughts on this is because modern day views of santa has made kids selfish, they no longer want what traditional kids would have died for such as food and heat. Now kids whine and complain until their parents buy them the X-Box 360 or the PSP. My 3rd issue with the modern Santa is you are lying to your kids, you tell them that a giant fat man is going to come down the chimney in red tights and a hat and put presents in their stockings, you keep telling them this and when they catch you doing it they will be devestated, and if you dont have a chimney you have to make up another lie to cover for your last lie until you are caught up in a tangled web. My final issue with modern day santa is he is probabally the reason that so many kids are so paranoid. If you've ever noticed kids always think that they are being watched by some monster in the closet or under the bed. My thoughts behind this is its that stupid song santa clause is coming to town. The lines "he sees you when your sleeping he knows when your awake, he knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake" is enough to scare any child in to thinking Santa Clause is watching me. No wonder so many kids have nightmares and thoughts of something in their closet watching them.


These are just some of my thoughts


-God Bless biggrin  

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Holypimp

[a bunch of really insightful stuff]

Where have you been all my life? You've said everything I've been trying to get across. I like it!  

[ioioouiouiouio]

Holypimp

My reasoning is 1. Santa is an anagram of Satan.

God is an analogy for dog.


HOMGZORZ!!!111 God must be a b*tch!!!111

no, really. you even get how incredibally stupid this anagram arguement is?  

[Gilwen]

Holypimp

But the modern day views of Santa Clause i think are very....strange. First as far as santa clause being fat. Saint Nicholas was from what I understand a pastor, pastors typically dont make a lot of money, therefore he probabally didnt have a lot to spend on food so he would have more than likely been fairly skinny.

Are you wary of Jesus just because He's portrayed as a white hippy? Traditions cause icons to change.  

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Cometh The Inquisitor

you even get how incredibally stupid this anagram arguement is?

It's not stupid. It doesn't prove anything, but it's not stupid. It just makes you think.  

[Gilwen]

hot_wheels_turbo_racing

Cometh The Inquisitor

you even get how incredibally stupid this anagram arguement is?

It's not stupid. It doesn't prove anything, but it's not stupid. It just makes you think.

A good thing to think about is that "santa" means "saint." Like Santa Fe, Santa Cruz, etc. It's not a title strictly for Santa Claus. Now, even if "Claus" were an anagram for "Satan," it would be more convincing than his title, one he shares with hundreds of other saints.  

[Silent Expressor]

Gilwen

Holypimp

But the modern day views of Santa Clause i think are very....strange. First as far as santa clause being fat. Saint Nicholas was from what I understand a pastor, pastors typically dont make a lot of money, therefore he probabally didnt have a lot to spend on food so he would have more than likely been fairly skinny.

Are you wary of Jesus just because He's portrayed as a white hippy? Traditions cause icons to change.

Actually yes it does bother me that Jesus is protrayed as a white hippy, for two reasons. 1. He wasnt white he was hebrew which would have made is skin fairly dark almost black and 2. It makes it easier for a secular society like the United States to make fun of him