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divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:03 pm
mazuac
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
In response to the original question:

I could see there being attempts made for a universal religion. However, I am not a fan of the idea, unless it was Christianity and everyone believed on their own faith, and not by law. But the concept of mixing all the major world religions would be blasphemy towards our God. And I doubt it would work for long. I heard at once that people can only live in groups of about 200 before different beleifs and ideas set in and there is disagreement.

As to the differences between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity:

They are different. Which is why they are different religions. Christianity originated from Judaism, yet we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not just a prophet. Islam is drastically different, giving their god a different name, never mentioning a savior like Jesus, and giving different guidelines to get to heaven. Plus Judaism and Islam have set rules as to conduct, punishment, diet, and social standings. Christianity has none of that, making everyone equal in the eyes of God and simply asking that we believe in Jesus dying for us, and that God is the one true God, and then trying to live a Godly life (this excludes Catholicism who as far as I understand requires another person to talk to God for the common human. Sorry if I have gotten this wrong, that is what my knowledge is). There are a million differences, both small and large, in the religions that set them apart. Although Islam claims that they believe in the same God as us and that their beliefs are the same, I don't see how that is possible.


They didn't give God a new name, Allah is translated to God. Unless all those spanish christians worshiping some dude named "Deos" are worshiping a new God as well.

It's possible because you are uneducated abut islam and make up gaps where there are none.


True that Allah translated is God. Thank you for pointing that, and please forgive me as I haven't used what Islamic knowledge I do have in over a year. However, although Islams claim that Allah is the same as God, why doesn't Allah give the same guidelines and truths as he does in the Bible? Allah orders that theives have their hand cut off while God declares that everyone should be forgiven "70 times 7" times although we definitely don't deserve it. They are not the same.

As to your second response to me:
World peace is not blasphemous, just highly, highly, highly unlikely. Christ Followers like myself are taught in the New Testement that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternity in heaven with God. So to us, and our beliefs, combining other religions with our own and changing Christianity to fit with other religions is blasphemous. As to the belief that only one prophet is the way to heaven and that there are those "idiots," as you call them, that follow him, it is what I was taught to believe, it is what all Christ followers are taught to believe, and it is part of our religion.
And thanks for calling me an idiot. Really, thanks. I would rather be considered an idiot on earth and live for eternity, then spend eternity in grief and pain.


Thanks to Siren and Promark.
You're welcome Angel of the End.


Forgive them 70 times 7 times, unless they practice sorcery or eat pork or are homosexual or are slaves. An eye for an eye. Any religion can look harsh if you're looking for the outdated violence in the text written by mortals.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Also, another reason why he says "70 times 7" (77 in some texts) is because 7 is the most perfect number in Hebrew. God rested on the seventh day, etc. Thus, it shows that we are to forgive as many as need to be forgiven, or we need to forgive everyone, just as God did.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.

Except muslims or Jews. They burn.  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:23 pm
divineseraph
xxPromarkxx
The quotes are getting too long. Here's a list of the stuff I need to respond to:

1)The five basic tenants are similar.
Then why does Islam state that Christians, Jews, or both religions distorted the message of God?

2)Where to Muslims go, in your mind?
Believing that they go to hell and condemming them to hell are two very different things.

3)Why are Muslims bad if they follow the same God in a different way?
The gods aren't the same. We're still arguing about this, so let's drop it.


2- Well, Muslims don't believe they go to hell. They also believe that Christians and Jews go to heaven. So amongst the two of you, who is more condemning?

3- The Gods ARE the same. You are factually wrong. I will not drop it, I cannot allow you to spread such blatant untruth. Allah is God is Yahweh is Jehova is YHWH is the God of Abraham. Do some research.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


You and Islam and many others may say they are. But can the same God tell two different things? Like, why would God reveal for women to wear Hijabs, even when for the other 5,000 years women didn't have to wear hijabs, etc. That's just an example, but yeah~


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.
 

mazuac

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:34 pm
mazuac
divineseraph
xxPromarkxx
The quotes are getting too long. Here's a list of the stuff I need to respond to:

1)The five basic tenants are similar.
Then why does Islam state that Christians, Jews, or both religions distorted the message of God?

2)Where to Muslims go, in your mind?
Believing that they go to hell and condemming them to hell are two very different things.

3)Why are Muslims bad if they follow the same God in a different way?
The gods aren't the same. We're still arguing about this, so let's drop it.


2- Well, Muslims don't believe they go to hell. They also believe that Christians and Jews go to heaven. So amongst the two of you, who is more condemning?

3- The Gods ARE the same. You are factually wrong. I will not drop it, I cannot allow you to spread such blatant untruth. Allah is God is Yahweh is Jehova is YHWH is the God of Abraham. Do some research.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


You and Islam and many others may say they are. But can the same God tell two different things? Like, why would God reveal for women to wear Hijabs, even when for the other 5,000 years women didn't have to wear hijabs, etc. That's just an example, but yeah~


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.


Why would he randomly send the Son of God to take away rules about eating unclean foods? Of course, I disagree with many things in all holy books, I don't discriminate. For example, killing homosexuals, eternal forgiveness for a few words, and subjugation of women.

I have to be to work, but I will be back.  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:24 pm
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
In response to the original question:

I could see there being attempts made for a universal religion. However, I am not a fan of the idea, unless it was Christianity and everyone believed on their own faith, and not by law. But the concept of mixing all the major world religions would be blasphemy towards our God. And I doubt it would work for long. I heard at once that people can only live in groups of about 200 before different beleifs and ideas set in and there is disagreement.

As to the differences between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity:

They are different. Which is why they are different religions. Christianity originated from Judaism, yet we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not just a prophet. Islam is drastically different, giving their god a different name, never mentioning a savior like Jesus, and giving different guidelines to get to heaven. Plus Judaism and Islam have set rules as to conduct, punishment, diet, and social standings. Christianity has none of that, making everyone equal in the eyes of God and simply asking that we believe in Jesus dying for us, and that God is the one true God, and then trying to live a Godly life (this excludes Catholicism who as far as I understand requires another person to talk to God for the common human. Sorry if I have gotten this wrong, that is what my knowledge is). There are a million differences, both small and large, in the religions that set them apart. Although Islam claims that they believe in the same God as us and that their beliefs are the same, I don't see how that is possible.


They didn't give God a new name, Allah is translated to God. Unless all those spanish christians worshiping some dude named "Deos" are worshiping a new God as well.

It's possible because you are uneducated abut islam and make up gaps where there are none.


True that Allah translated is God. Thank you for pointing that, and please forgive me as I haven't used what Islamic knowledge I do have in over a year. However, although Islams claim that Allah is the same as God, why doesn't Allah give the same guidelines and truths as he does in the Bible? Allah orders that theives have their hand cut off while God declares that everyone should be forgiven "70 times 7" times although we definitely don't deserve it. They are not the same.

As to your second response to me:
World peace is not blasphemous, just highly, highly, highly unlikely. Christ Followers like myself are taught in the New Testement that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternity in heaven with God. So to us, and our beliefs, combining other religions with our own and changing Christianity to fit with other religions is blasphemous. As to the belief that only one prophet is the way to heaven and that there are those "idiots," as you call them, that follow him, it is what I was taught to believe, it is what all Christ followers are taught to believe, and it is part of our religion.
And thanks for calling me an idiot. Really, thanks. I would rather be considered an idiot on earth and live for eternity, then spend eternity in grief and pain.


Thanks to Siren and Promark.
You're welcome Angel of the End.


Forgive them 70 times 7 times, unless they practice sorcery or eat pork or are homosexual or are slaves. An eye for an eye. Any religion can look harsh if you're looking for the outdated violence in the text written by mortals.

And if this is what you are taught, what makes muslims wrong or bad for believing what THEY were taught? And hold on, you don't believe in any other prophet? Moses was wrong? Noah was wrong? Abraham was wrong? Those who think of the timeline of religion as "Nothing, nothing nothing, Jesus is God, Liars, liars, liars" are simply wrong.


I was paraphrasing Matthew 18:20-22. After that there is no exceptions to what can be forgiven. It is simply saying that those who sin should be forgiven. And it is true that any religion can seem harsh, but in the Islamic countries today, thieves still lose their hand, women are forced to wear head coverings, and can't have power within the family for fear of getting brutally beaten, even killed. They still live by the old religious texts. and Judaism still follows the old kosher laws given to them, but as for punishment and sacrifice they were forced to conform with the current laws of society.
In the Christian religion, when Jesus came to Earth he fulfilled the old law, the Old Covenant which God created with Abraham. He then nullified that Old Covenant and made the New Covenant with us, that came about with his death on the cross, which saved us from our sins. We no longer live by the old outdated texts.

When did I ever say Muslims were bad for believing what they believe? When did I ever condemn them or anyone that sinned? I simply believe that what the Muslims believe is wrong as part of my extensive beliefs. I believe that people sin, even me, but that I shouldn't condemn everyone for it. I have friends that are Wiccan, homosexuals, lying manipulators, conceited and self-centered. And I'm some of those things. But it's not my place to judge them.
And I do believe in the other prophets. I do believe that what they taught as part of the Old Covenant was valid when they taught it. They were correct when it was their time to teach. I believe in the disciples and what they taught. I simply believe that Jesus nullified the Old Covenant and created a New Covenant with his death. And I believe that believing that Jesus did this so we could all be saved for eternity is the only way of getting to heaven. I believe it is as he said. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


Again, human greed and worldly power justified by outdated religious texts. Some extremist christians resort to violence. KKK comes to mind.

Again the "Except through me"- Very ambiguous, could mean many things. Such as living LIKE him, through is example.

And as for muslims being bad- If they are wrong in you god's eyes, then they must be sinning and must be bad. I see no other reason to condemn them to hellfire unless they are truly bad, in your eyes.


Very true in some cases. There are extremists and hypocrites in every religion. I, however, and my christian friends try not to be like that and try to truly follow Jesus. And the Bible is always being interpreted, both correctly and incorrectly. People can make the bible say what they want it to say, in order to do what they want. And Jesus was around 2000 years ago, so his parables and teaching style fit that time, not ours. It can be confusing, and I don't think we can be really, positively, absolutely sure about the true interpretation until we get to heaven and ask God. We just have to try our best to follow His will until then.

Living like Jesus is part of our relationship with him. He was the perfect man, the Son of God and being a Christ follower means that we believe he died to save us, and that we try to follow his will which is that we can be like him, and that we share his good message with those who do not know. So I think in this case, there is only one interpretation, since it incorporates the living "like" him, becoming part of the body of Christ once we believe, and listening to what he teaches, as they show us the way into heaven.

1) Being wrong is not necessarily a sin. In some cases we don't have enough information to get to the truth of matters. And sometimes it is, like when you have been shown God's message, and yet are still ignorant towards it. 2) And everybody sins. Even Christians sin. I'm positive I sin every day, whether it's a concious choice or not. It's human nature to sin. We were given the power of choice and that allowed Adam and Eve to fall from the place of perfection they were in. We all make mistakes, we all make bad choices. We. All. Sin. That is why Jesus came to earth. He made a new covenant and offered us the gift of salvation. It's just up to us to take it. And the amazing thing is, it's always there for us to take. Always. 3)As for condemning people to hell based off of what religion they are or choices that they make in life, that's not up to me, or my fellow Christ Followers or any other person in the world. It is up to our God.  

Sarcastic_Angel


Angel of the End

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:13 pm
Exactly as Sarcastic_Angel said. However, note: people back then often did not understand the parables either. And Jesus said that the people who did hear the gospel and understand it were blessed, because it was not man but the Father who showed this to them.

Also, note to whats-his-face (can't remember username) who says every religion's God is the same:
1. What about religions and cults that worship the Devil, or the female form and do not believe in Heaven or God, yet worship the Devil like a god?
2. What about religions that believe in reincarnation?
3. Have you never read in the Qu'ran, that Allah says to give Christians only so many chances to convert, then it is OK IN THE EYES OF GOD TO KILL THEM? And that women are basically just there and will only go to Heaven to serve their husbands?
4. What about religions that do not believe in "souls"?

and there are many other things I can think of, yet am too lazy and tired at this point to post.  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:56 pm
divineseraph
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
No other God, yet muslims and jews believe in the same God, but not in Jesus as the messiah.

Looking at the logic that Jesus IS God, then believing in Jesus is believing in God, and believing in God is believing in God, so believing in Jesus OR God is believing in the same thing. See the modus ponens above.


May i ask where you see that Muslims believe in the same God? Just curious as to where you get your information, i haven't heard that.

I believe that Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity, and the holy trinity itself is God in three parts. I don't believe you can have one without the other two. You can have Jesus by himself being God if you didn't have the Father do send Jesus or the Holy Spirit to come forth afterward.

In my opinion, you can't have God without all three parts smile And I haven't tried it, but i don't think that works with your modus ponens. It's nice to see latin again...^_^


Trinities? How interesting you mention that.

http://HungerWolf.deviantart.com/art/Alchemical-Circle-92696724

This is my alchemical circle of the three monotheistic religions. Notice, there is a trinity there, of the three religions. If each trinity connected makes a triangle, what do the two together create? Why, it's a star of David.

But muslims DO believe in the same god because they believe in Jesus as a prophet. They believe in the New Testament, the Old Testament and The Koran, which is the New New Testament. They believe in Noah, Moses, Mary, all of the prophets and religious figures. ALL the islamic religion does is add ONE extra prophet and his scripture. That's it. It's not a moon-goddess, it's not about murdering the innocent for Jihad (which, by the way, was originally intended to be peaceful demonstration of faith), It's not about some new, crazy sun-god. It's Christianity with a new prophet.


Very interesting...i had a friend like you that would draw pictures like that. Doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. :p Shapes are shapes, you take them as what you want to.

But muslims still do not believe in the Holy Trinity, which that, all together is God. You can't have one without the other two, and even Judaism has different names when talked about God the Father, and the Messiah. They didn't have one for the Holy Spirit only because they didn't know about it during the Old Testament, there were prophecy's about the Holy Spirit coming(And I will send the helper) but the Jewish people really didn't understand what that meant, just as they didn't understand that the Messiah would come in a humble way and not as a rich and elaborate King. If you read the Bible in the orignal greek you'll see all the different names that the Jewish people had for God, and what each one meant. They realized that there would be more than one, they just didn't know when they would come. When Jesus came and got baptized with the Holy Spirit, then the people knew that there was something different about Him, and when Jesus left to be with the Father, the Holy Spirit came and it is in that power that the Disciples were able to do many miracles.  

Siren of Saturn


Siren of Saturn

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:58 pm
mazuac
Siren of Saturn
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
In response to the original question:

I could see there being attempts made for a universal religion. However, I am not a fan of the idea, unless it was Christianity and everyone believed on their own faith, and not by law. But the concept of mixing all the major world religions would be blasphemy towards our God. And I doubt it would work for long. I heard at once that people can only live in groups of about 200 before different beleifs and ideas set in and there is disagreement.

As to the differences between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity:

They are different. Which is why they are different religions. Christianity originated from Judaism, yet we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not just a prophet. Islam is drastically different, giving their god a different name, never mentioning a savior like Jesus, and giving different guidelines to get to heaven. Plus Judaism and Islam have set rules as to conduct, punishment, diet, and social standings. Christianity has none of that, making everyone equal in the eyes of God and simply asking that we believe in Jesus dying for us, and that God is the one true God, and then trying to live a Godly life (this excludes Catholicism who as far as I understand requires another person to talk to God for the common human. Sorry if I have gotten this wrong, that is what my knowledge is). There are a million differences, both small and large, in the religions that set them apart. Although Islam claims that they believe in the same God as us and that their beliefs are the same, I don't see how that is possible.


They didn't give God a new name, Allah is translated to God. Unless all those spanish christians worshiping some dude named "Deos" are worshiping a new God as well.

It's possible because you are uneducated abut islam and make up gaps where there are none.


True that Allah translated is God. Thank you for pointing that, and please forgive me as I haven't used my Islamic knowledge in over a year. However, although Islams claim that Allah is the same as God, why doesn't Allah give the same guidelines and truths as he does in the Bible? Allah orders that theives have their hand cut off while God declares that everyone should be forgiven "70 times 7" times. They are not the same.

As to your second response to me:
World peace is not blasphemous, just highly, highly, highly unlikely. Christ Followers like myself are taught in the New Testement that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternity in heaven with God. So to us, and our beliefs, combining other religions with our own and changing Christianity to fit with other religions is blasphemous. As to the belief that only one prophet is the way to heaven and that there are those "idiots," as you call them, that follow him, it is what I was taught to believe, it is what all Christ followers are taught to believe, and it is part of our religion.
And thanks for calling me an idiot. Really, thanks. I would rather be considered an idiot on earth and live for eternity, then spend eternity in grief and pain.


I would like to say, if at least your going to come and debate in a Christian forum where there are christian beliefs and values, then please don't be disrespectful. This isn't "let's debate religion and philosophy" guild. We have not been disrespectful to you in any way, and if Christians believe that Jesus's salvation is the only way to heaven then that's something that you'll have to deal with..it's called a christian guild for a reason.

Having your opinions are fine and good, we aren't set out to force ours down your throat, but when you come in here and tell us we are idiots for what we believe, i think that crosses a line. Please use wisdom in your words.
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Also, agreed. With SoS and Sarcastic_Angel. But, I mean, yes we are having a heated debate. But don't we all here beleive in Jesus Christ? We may have different thoughts and beliefs, but we can all agree that Christ Jesus died for us on the cross and has given us an eternal gift in Heaven~ Wow, I am in a really calm mood right now XD


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.


Sorry, i misquoted it :p That was supposed to be or divine or anyone else that would like to debate. SoS and Sarcastic_angel are lovely ^_^  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:48 pm
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
No other God, yet muslims and jews believe in the same God, but not in Jesus as the messiah.

Looking at the logic that Jesus IS God, then believing in Jesus is believing in God, and believing in God is believing in God, so believing in Jesus OR God is believing in the same thing. See the modus ponens above.


May i ask where you see that Muslims believe in the same God? Just curious as to where you get your information, i haven't heard that.

I believe that Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity, and the holy trinity itself is God in three parts. I don't believe you can have one without the other two. You can have Jesus by himself being God if you didn't have the Father do send Jesus or the Holy Spirit to come forth afterward.

In my opinion, you can't have God without all three parts smile And I haven't tried it, but i don't think that works with your modus ponens. It's nice to see latin again...^_^


Trinities? How interesting you mention that.

http://HungerWolf.deviantart.com/art/Alchemical-Circle-92696724

This is my alchemical circle of the three monotheistic religions. Notice, there is a trinity there, of the three religions. If each trinity connected makes a triangle, what do the two together create? Why, it's a star of David.

But muslims DO believe in the same god because they believe in Jesus as a prophet. They believe in the New Testament, the Old Testament and The Koran, which is the New New Testament. They believe in Noah, Moses, Mary, all of the prophets and religious figures. ALL the islamic religion does is add ONE extra prophet and his scripture. That's it. It's not a moon-goddess, it's not about murdering the innocent for Jihad (which, by the way, was originally intended to be peaceful demonstration of faith), It's not about some new, crazy sun-god. It's Christianity with a new prophet.


Very interesting...i had a friend like you that would draw pictures like that. Doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. :p Shapes are shapes, you take them as what you want to.

But muslims still do not believe in the Holy Trinity, which that, all together is God. You can't have one without the other two, and even Judaism has different names when talked about God the Father, and the Messiah. They didn't have one for the Holy Spirit only because they didn't know about it during the Old Testament, there were prophecy's about the Holy Spirit coming(And I will send the helper) but the Jewish people really didn't understand what that meant, just as they didn't understand that the Messiah would come in a humble way and not as a rich and elaborate King. If you read the Bible in the orignal greek you'll see all the different names that the Jewish people had for God, and what each one meant. They realized that there would be more than one, they just didn't know when they would come. When Jesus came and got baptized with the Holy Spirit, then the people knew that there was something different about Him, and when Jesus left to be with the Father, the Holy Spirit came and it is in that power that the Disciples were able to do many miracles.
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Yeah, the Jews didn't know of Jesus, and like SoS said, they expected a military king, not a humble king that would come to give eternal salvation. Even King Herod at the time believed Jesus was going to be a king of the nation, and thus he would have extreme military power. It is especially easy to see how paranoid he was when he caused the slaughter of boy children two years or less.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.
 

mazuac

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:32 pm
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel
divineseraph
Sarcastic_Angel


True that Allah translated is God. Thank you for pointing that, and please forgive me as I haven't used what Islamic knowledge I do have in over a year. However, although Islams claim that Allah is the same as God, why doesn't Allah give the same guidelines and truths as he does in the Bible? Allah orders that theives have their hand cut off while God declares that everyone should be forgiven "70 times 7" times although we definitely don't deserve it. They are not the same.

As to your second response to me:
World peace is not blasphemous, just highly, highly, highly unlikely. Christ Followers like myself are taught in the New Testement that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternity in heaven with God. So to us, and our beliefs, combining other religions with our own and changing Christianity to fit with other religions is blasphemous. As to the belief that only one prophet is the way to heaven and that there are those "idiots," as you call them, that follow him, it is what I was taught to believe, it is what all Christ followers are taught to believe, and it is part of our religion.
And thanks for calling me an idiot. Really, thanks. I would rather be considered an idiot on earth and live for eternity, then spend eternity in grief and pain.


Thanks to Siren and Promark.
You're welcome Angel of the End.


Forgive them 70 times 7 times, unless they practice sorcery or eat pork or are homosexual or are slaves. An eye for an eye. Any religion can look harsh if you're looking for the outdated violence in the text written by mortals.

And if this is what you are taught, what makes muslims wrong or bad for believing what THEY were taught? And hold on, you don't believe in any other prophet? Moses was wrong? Noah was wrong? Abraham was wrong? Those who think of the timeline of religion as "Nothing, nothing nothing, Jesus is God, Liars, liars, liars" are simply wrong.


I was paraphrasing Matthew 18:20-22. After that there is no exceptions to what can be forgiven. It is simply saying that those who sin should be forgiven. And it is true that any religion can seem harsh, but in the Islamic countries today, thieves still lose their hand, women are forced to wear head coverings, and can't have power within the family for fear of getting brutally beaten, even killed. They still live by the old religious texts. and Judaism still follows the old kosher laws given to them, but as for punishment and sacrifice they were forced to conform with the current laws of society.
In the Christian religion, when Jesus came to Earth he fulfilled the old law, the Old Covenant which God created with Abraham. He then nullified that Old Covenant and made the New Covenant with us, that came about with his death on the cross, which saved us from our sins. We no longer live by the old outdated texts.

When did I ever say Muslims were bad for believing what they believe? When did I ever condemn them or anyone that sinned? I simply believe that what the Muslims believe is wrong as part of my extensive beliefs. I believe that people sin, even me, but that I shouldn't condemn everyone for it. I have friends that are Wiccan, homosexuals, lying manipulators, conceited and self-centered. And I'm some of those things. But it's not my place to judge them.
And I do believe in the other prophets. I do believe that what they taught as part of the Old Covenant was valid when they taught it. They were correct when it was their time to teach. I believe in the disciples and what they taught. I simply believe that Jesus nullified the Old Covenant and created a New Covenant with his death. And I believe that believing that Jesus did this so we could all be saved for eternity is the only way of getting to heaven. I believe it is as he said. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


Again, human greed and worldly power justified by outdated religious texts. Some extremist christians resort to violence. KKK comes to mind.

Again the "Except through me"- Very ambiguous, could mean many things. Such as living LIKE him, through is example.

And as for muslims being bad- If they are wrong in you god's eyes, then they must be sinning and must be bad. I see no other reason to condemn them to hellfire unless they are truly bad, in your eyes.


Very true in some cases. There are extremists and hypocrites in every religion. I, however, and my christian friends try not to be like that and try to truly follow Jesus. And the Bible is always being interpreted, both correctly and incorrectly. People can make the bible say what they want it to say, in order to do what they want. And Jesus was around 2000 years ago, so his parables and teaching style fit that time, not ours. It can be confusing, and I don't think we can be really, positively, absolutely sure about the true interpretation until we get to heaven and ask God. We just have to try our best to follow His will until then.

Living like Jesus is part of our relationship with him. He was the perfect man, the Son of God and being a Christ follower means that we believe he died to save us, and that we try to follow his will which is that we can be like him, and that we share his good message with those who do not know. So I think in this case, there is only one interpretation, since it incorporates the living "like" him, becoming part of the body of Christ once we believe, and listening to what he teaches, as they show us the way into heaven.

1) Being wrong is not necessarily a sin. In some cases we don't have enough information to get to the truth of matters. And sometimes it is, like when you have been shown God's message, and yet are still ignorant towards it. 2) And everybody sins. Even Christians sin. I'm positive I sin every day, whether it's a concious choice or not. It's human nature to sin. We were given the power of choice and that allowed Adam and Eve to fall from the place of perfection they were in. We all make mistakes, we all make bad choices. We. All. Sin. That is why Jesus came to earth. He made a new covenant and offered us the gift of salvation. It's just up to us to take it. And the amazing thing is, it's always there for us to take. Always. 3)As for condemning people to hell based off of what religion they are or choices that they make in life, that's not up to me, or my fellow Christ Followers or any other person in the world. It is up to our God.


1- My point exactly. So taking quotes from a religious text to demean any religion is pointless, since there are nearly infinite definitions, and wrongs have been done in the name of every religion to prove it.

2-Living like Jesus is more important than acknowledging Jesus as God, in my opinion. George Bush acknowledges Jesus as God, yet he starts moneypit wars with innocent nations. Cheney is a war profiteer. Murdoch spreads miitary fanaticism across America. None of these people are LIKE Christ but all of them WORSHIP Christ. It seems to me that this is a bad way of determining goodness, if people like this are deemed better than Ghandi.

3- Yes, everyone sins. It is human nature. And I don't think that God, knowing this, would allow a system which makes it so that those who commit more numerous and grievous sins get into heaven while those who simply consider Jesus the wrong thing go to hell, regardless of how holy or Christlike they were in life.  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:41 pm
Angel of the End
Exactly as Sarcastic_Angel said. However, note: people back then often did not understand the parables either. And Jesus said that the people who did hear the gospel and understand it were blessed, because it was not man but the Father who showed this to them.

Also, note to whats-his-face (can't remember username) who says every religion's God is the same:
1. What about religions and cults that worship the Devil, or the female form and do not believe in Heaven or God, yet worship the Devil like a god?
2. What about religions that believe in reincarnation?
3. Have you never read in the Qu'ran, that Allah says to give Christians only so many chances to convert, then it is OK IN THE EYES OF GOD TO KILL THEM? And that women are basically just there and will only go to Heaven to serve their husbands?
4. What about religions that do not believe in "souls"?

and there are many other things I can think of, yet am too lazy and tired at this point to post.


I did not say literally EVERY, if you look back you will notice I said every Monotheistic, Abrahamic religion. That negates many of your points.

However, there are a few interesting things I can mention on this, but did not until now because I don't want to be so far spread out. As for Wicca and Hinduism and Atenism, these MAY worship our God, just in a very different way. Imagine our trinity, then imagine that being more like a "Several Dozen Grouping". I say this because most polytheistic religions believe in a MAIN God, where all the other Gods are just aspects or parts of the one central deity.

Hinduism has Brahma, Atenism has Aton (or Aten), Wicca has that belief in the goddess who is made up of other Goddesses (Who cares the gender).

2- I dislike reincarnation, but some christian sects do believe in reincarnation as it is. It is not totally out there.

3-This is a part that, if it exists, is simply wrong. And historically inaccurate. When an arabic nation conquered another nation, the muslims allowed the people of said nation to continue whatever lifestyle and religion they had previous to the occupation.

4- Well, they seem pretty much f***ed from the get-go.  

divineseraph


divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:48 pm
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
No other God, yet muslims and jews believe in the same God, but not in Jesus as the messiah.

Looking at the logic that Jesus IS God, then believing in Jesus is believing in God, and believing in God is believing in God, so believing in Jesus OR God is believing in the same thing. See the modus ponens above.


May i ask where you see that Muslims believe in the same God? Just curious as to where you get your information, i haven't heard that.

I believe that Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity, and the holy trinity itself is God in three parts. I don't believe you can have one without the other two. You can have Jesus by himself being God if you didn't have the Father do send Jesus or the Holy Spirit to come forth afterward.

In my opinion, you can't have God without all three parts smile And I haven't tried it, but i don't think that works with your modus ponens. It's nice to see latin again...^_^


Trinities? How interesting you mention that.

http://HungerWolf.deviantart.com/art/Alchemical-Circle-92696724

This is my alchemical circle of the three monotheistic religions. Notice, there is a trinity there, of the three religions. If each trinity connected makes a triangle, what do the two together create? Why, it's a star of David.

But muslims DO believe in the same god because they believe in Jesus as a prophet. They believe in the New Testament, the Old Testament and The Koran, which is the New New Testament. They believe in Noah, Moses, Mary, all of the prophets and religious figures. ALL the islamic religion does is add ONE extra prophet and his scripture. That's it. It's not a moon-goddess, it's not about murdering the innocent for Jihad (which, by the way, was originally intended to be peaceful demonstration of faith), It's not about some new, crazy sun-god. It's Christianity with a new prophet.


Very interesting...i had a friend like you that would draw pictures like that. Doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. :p Shapes are shapes, you take them as what you want to.

But muslims still do not believe in the Holy Trinity, which that, all together is God. You can't have one without the other two, and even Judaism has different names when talked about God the Father, and the Messiah. They didn't have one for the Holy Spirit only because they didn't know about it during the Old Testament, there were prophecy's about the Holy Spirit coming(And I will send the helper) but the Jewish people really didn't understand what that meant, just as they didn't understand that the Messiah would come in a humble way and not as a rich and elaborate King. If you read the Bible in the orignal greek you'll see all the different names that the Jewish people had for God, and what each one meant. They realized that there would be more than one, they just didn't know when they would come. When Jesus came and got baptized with the Holy Spirit, then the people knew that there was something different about Him, and when Jesus left to be with the Father, the Holy Spirit came and it is in that power that the Disciples were able to do many miracles.


So it seems that older religions may simply not understand all there is to God... Hmmm... Since Islam is the most recent branch of the Abrahamic God, they may just have some merit to them.

You mean the Sephiroth, the 10 fruit on the tree of life? 11 if you count Daat/Abyss. But they are more aspects than names of God. That and the rearrangement of the Tetragamation. It is said that you must rearrange every word in his name in every possible way, for a total of 24 names. (Even though the name has 2 H's, they are considered unique and thus must be rearranged so that each H is treated as a different letter)  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:56 pm
I have a couple bits of advice for you:

1) Don't swear. It makes you look unintelligent.
2) Don't insult people. It's rude, and won't make you any friends.
3) Don't put words into people's mouths. It shows us that you are desperate to win an argument.  

xxPromarkxx


Angel of the End

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:08 pm
((@xxpromarkxx, I love your siggy! ^^ "debating wont save people, loving them will" That is tight.))  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:32 am
xxPromarkxx
I have a couple bits of advice for you:

1) Don't swear. It makes you look unintelligent.
2) Don't insult people. It's rude, and won't make you any friends.
3) Don't put words into people's mouths. It shows us that you are desperate to win an argument.


1)Swearing doesn't show a lack of intellect. Being unable to spell and using swears constantly with little to no context shows a lack of intellect.

2) Granted, I shouldn't, but I have rarely done so, and only in a context to demonstrate the problems with such a belief. As in, idiotic hatred between brethren. It happens on all sides in all issues.

3) I try not to put words in people's mouths. However, I do often extend the logic one uses as an example for why that logic is not always valid.  

divineseraph


b-asinine

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:01 am
mazuac
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Also, agreed. With SoS and Sarcastic_Angel. But, I mean, yes we are having a heated debate. But don't we all here beleive in Jesus Christ? We may have different thoughts and beliefs, but we can all agree that Christ Jesus died for us on the cross and has given us an eternal gift in Heaven~ Wow, I am in a really calm mood right now XD


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.


Not everyone in this guild believes that. This guild is for Christians AND non-Christians. So therefore, you can surely expect debate to some extent. Besides, he [divineseraph] is not saying anything against any religion... He is merely trying to open your eyes about certain facts.


mazuac
Like, why would God reveal for women to wear Hijabs, even when for the other 5,000 years women didn't have to wear hijabs, etc. That's just an example, but yeah


It's called radicalism. Not all Muslims follow nor believe what the Taliban and Al Queda preach. They do that as a way to control the people out of fear - and use religion as a tool to manipulate with.

xxPromarkxx
I have a couple bits of advice for you:

1) Don't swear. It makes you look unintelligent.
2) Don't insult people. It's rude, and won't make you any friends.
3) Don't put words into people's mouths. It shows us that you are desperate to win an argument.


Are you just talking because you don't have any other arguement?  
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