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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:33 pm
You refuse to listen to reason, and you didn't read my post this time. Many terrible deeds have gone on in the name of Jesus. The KKK is christian. They believe in Jesus, yet they also kill other human beings. Because they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, do they have a better chance at heaven than a benevolent "pagan"?

You have been repeating yourself because you refuse to see my argument, or to answer my questions directly. You continue to fall back on strawman arguments which are unrelated to my question. In my question, there is no "Both", it is one. Or. The. Other.

You have not once, in the 3 postings in a row, answered my question. If granted only one, which would Jesus choose to go to heaven? One marred by sin who called Jesus God, or one who had never sinned but did not call Jesus God?

But, you won't answer this one either. I think you're afraid. I think you understand the evil of this thinking. But it is so much easier to block it out with a picture of perfect jesus and the idea that muslims are just demons in human bodies doomed to burn in brimstone.  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:52 pm
divineseraph
You refuse to listen to reason, and you didn't read my post this time. Many terrible deeds have gone on in the name of Jesus. The KKK is christian. They believe in Jesus, yet they also kill other human beings. Because they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, do they have a better chance at heaven than a benevolent "pagan"?

You have been repeating yourself because you refuse to see my argument, or to answer my questions directly. You continue to fall back on strawman arguments which are unrelated to my question. In my question, there is no "Both", it is one. Or. The. Other.

You have not once, in the 3 postings in a row, answered my question. If granted only one, which would Jesus choose to go to heaven? One marred by sin who called Jesus God, or one who had never sinned but did not call Jesus God?

But, you won't answer this one either. I think you're afraid. I think you understand the evil of this thinking. But it is so much easier to block it out with a picture of perfect jesus and the idea that muslims are just demons in human bodies doomed to burn in brimstone.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Well, it seems I have lied. I am posting again. Yes, the KKK is Christian, but Jesus still loves them. And even though they are mislead, they will most likely be up in Heaven. And on Judgment Day they "will receive what is due to them, whether good or bad." Yes, because they beleive in Jesus as the true Son of God, then they will be in Heaven. They have misinterpreted and misread scripture, but they beleive in Christ Jesus to be the truth the light and the way.

And also your statement is contradictory. All humans are "marred by Sin" no matter what. It is especially clear in Romans 3:23 - 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- See? We are all sinners. However, Jesus would like us all, but many choose to not follow him. Any who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved. Does this answer your questions? Anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus for salvation will be saved and forgiven.

And where did you get the idea that Muslims are "demons?" I certainly don't think that. In fact this whole thing got started because I was trying to prove that Islam and Christianity are not the same, period.


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mazuac

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:14 pm
mazuac
divineseraph
You refuse to listen to reason, and you didn't read my post this time. Many terrible deeds have gone on in the name of Jesus. The KKK is christian. They believe in Jesus, yet they also kill other human beings. Because they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, do they have a better chance at heaven than a benevolent "pagan"?

You have been repeating yourself because you refuse to see my argument, or to answer my questions directly. You continue to fall back on strawman arguments which are unrelated to my question. In my question, there is no "Both", it is one. Or. The. Other.

You have not once, in the 3 postings in a row, answered my question. If granted only one, which would Jesus choose to go to heaven? One marred by sin who called Jesus God, or one who had never sinned but did not call Jesus God?

But, you won't answer this one either. I think you're afraid. I think you understand the evil of this thinking. But it is so much easier to block it out with a picture of perfect jesus and the idea that muslims are just demons in human bodies doomed to burn in brimstone.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Well, it seems I have lied. I am posting again. Yes, the KKK is Christian, but Jesus still loves them. And even though they are mislead, they will most likely be up in Heaven. And on Judgment Day they "will receive what is due to them, whether good or bad." Yes, because they beleive in Jesus as the true Son of God, then they will be in Heaven. They have misinterpreted and misread scripture, but they beleive in Christ Jesus to be the truth the light and the way.

And also your statement is contradictory. All humans are "marred by Sin" no matter what. It is especially clear in Romans 3:23 - 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- See? We are all sinners. However, Jesus would like us all, but many choose to not follow him. Any who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved. Does this answer your questions? Anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus for salvation will be saved and forgiven.

And where did you get the idea that Muslims are "demons?" I certainly don't think that. In fact this whole thing got started because I was trying to prove that Islam and Christianity are not the same, period.


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


I'm sorry, that's just not right. Murderers are OK for heaven if they believe that Jesus is God, while those who never hurt anyone don't get into heaven for not calling Jesus God? Even if they still believe in him as a holy mortal?

Don't you see how absurd that is? Doesn't that raise any red flags? Don't you find an issue with that? It's just insane to think that Jesus or God could POSSIBLY want this absurd hatred based on one man.

Plain and simple, bad people don't go to heaven. Good people don't go to hell.

Goodness is not defined by believing or not believing in Jesus as the Son of God. To think such is blindness and ignorance.

You are condemning them to hellfire for not believing in Jesus as God. You believe that they will burn forever for this terrible act of neutrality. You believe they must be wrong, and therefore must be punished with eternal death. This persecution reminds me of another religious persecution regarding a certain heretic with a new idea.

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he does.  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:57 pm
divineseraph
mazuac
divineseraph
You refuse to listen to reason, and you didn't read my post this time. Many terrible deeds have gone on in the name of Jesus. The KKK is christian. They believe in Jesus, yet they also kill other human beings. Because they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, do they have a better chance at heaven than a benevolent "pagan"?

You have been repeating yourself because you refuse to see my argument, or to answer my questions directly. You continue to fall back on strawman arguments which are unrelated to my question. In my question, there is no "Both", it is one. Or. The. Other.

You have not once, in the 3 postings in a row, answered my question. If granted only one, which would Jesus choose to go to heaven? One marred by sin who called Jesus God, or one who had never sinned but did not call Jesus God?

But, you won't answer this one either. I think you're afraid. I think you understand the evil of this thinking. But it is so much easier to block it out with a picture of perfect jesus and the idea that muslims are just demons in human bodies doomed to burn in brimstone.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Well, it seems I have lied. I am posting again. Yes, the KKK is Christian, but Jesus still loves them. And even though they are mislead, they will most likely be up in Heaven. And on Judgment Day they "will receive what is due to them, whether good or bad." Yes, because they beleive in Jesus as the true Son of God, then they will be in Heaven. They have misinterpreted and misread scripture, but they beleive in Christ Jesus to be the truth the light and the way.

And also your statement is contradictory. All humans are "marred by Sin" no matter what. It is especially clear in Romans 3:23 - 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- See? We are all sinners. However, Jesus would like us all, but many choose to not follow him. Any who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved. Does this answer your questions? Anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus for salvation will be saved and forgiven.

And where did you get the idea that Muslims are "demons?" I certainly don't think that. In fact this whole thing got started because I was trying to prove that Islam and Christianity are not the same, period.


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


I'm sorry, that's just not right. Murderers are OK for heaven if they believe that Jesus is God, while those who never hurt anyone don't get into heaven for not calling Jesus God? Even if they still believe in him as a holy mortal?

Don't you see how absurd that is? Doesn't that raise any red flags? Don't you find an issue with that? It's just insane to think that Jesus or God could POSSIBLY want this absurd hatred based on one man.

Plain and simple, bad people don't go to heaven. Good people don't go to hell.

Goodness is not defined by believing or not believing in Jesus as the Son of God. To think such is blindness and ignorance.

You are condemning them to hellfire for not believing in Jesus as God. You believe that they will burn forever for this terrible act of neutrality. You believe they must be wrong, and therefore must be punished with eternal death. This persecution reminds me of another religious persecution regarding a certain heretic with a new idea.

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he does.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


*sigh* I'm not the one who makes the rules. But, as a Christian, yes there are a few murderers who say "In the name of Jesus!" That doesn't mean it is right, and they will be judged. But if Jesus' love and forgiveness can't forgive them, then we all may as well be condemned to Hell. Jesus came to save everyone, and that includes the murderers, etc.

I am not condemning them. Can I ask, have you ever read the Bible? It clearly states that God offered Jesus as a FREE GIFT to the inhabitants on the Earth. And Jesus led a perfect life, so when he died he was able to have the sins of the world placed upon him. It is up to us whether we beleive in him and take this free gift out Father has offered us, or not. And as much as I wish there wasn't a Hell, the Bible also makes it exceptionally clear that there is a Hell. Look, to prove my point.

John 3:18 - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." God freely offered Jesus as a gift, so that we could take this gift and be with God. But if we choose not to take Jesus... I wish there wasn't a hell, and that all good people would go to heaven, but that's just not how it works.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.
 

mazuac

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:30 pm
And I say bullshit. Yes, I am calling parts of the bible bullshit. Unless we should go back to killing women who practice sorcery and homosexuals.

It is simply wrong, and God knows that it is wrong. God would not make such bullshit. If he's so forgiving, why won't he forgive them for a misunderstanding?

And for that matter, if Jesus is God, then by believing in the same God, they believe in what Jesus wanted them to believe, according to you- God.

Logically explained through Modus Ponens.

J=G, C>J and M>G. Therefore, C=M.

J= Jesus, G= God, C= Christian, M = Muslim.

Jesus is God.
If christian, then (believe in) jesus. since Jesus is God, If christian, then (believe in) god.
If muslim, then (believe in) God.
Therefore, Christians= Muslims.  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:43 pm
divineseraph
mazuac
divineseraph
You refuse to listen to reason, and you didn't read my post this time. Many terrible deeds have gone on in the name of Jesus. The KKK is christian. They believe in Jesus, yet they also kill other human beings. Because they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, do they have a better chance at heaven than a benevolent "pagan"?

You have been repeating yourself because you refuse to see my argument, or to answer my questions directly. You continue to fall back on strawman arguments which are unrelated to my question. In my question, there is no "Both", it is one. Or. The. Other.

You have not once, in the 3 postings in a row, answered my question. If granted only one, which would Jesus choose to go to heaven? One marred by sin who called Jesus God, or one who had never sinned but did not call Jesus God?

But, you won't answer this one either. I think you're afraid. I think you understand the evil of this thinking. But it is so much easier to block it out with a picture of perfect jesus and the idea that muslims are just demons in human bodies doomed to burn in brimstone.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Well, it seems I have lied. I am posting again. Yes, the KKK is Christian, but Jesus still loves them. And even though they are mislead, they will most likely be up in Heaven. And on Judgment Day they "will receive what is due to them, whether good or bad." Yes, because they beleive in Jesus as the true Son of God, then they will be in Heaven. They have misinterpreted and misread scripture, but they beleive in Christ Jesus to be the truth the light and the way.

And also your statement is contradictory. All humans are "marred by Sin" no matter what. It is especially clear in Romans 3:23 - 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- See? We are all sinners. However, Jesus would like us all, but many choose to not follow him. Any who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved. Does this answer your questions? Anyone who calls upon the name of Jesus for salvation will be saved and forgiven.

And where did you get the idea that Muslims are "demons?" I certainly don't think that. In fact this whole thing got started because I was trying to prove that Islam and Christianity are not the same, period.


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


I'm sorry, that's just not right. Murderers are OK for heaven if they believe that Jesus is God, while those who never hurt anyone don't get into heaven for not calling Jesus God? Even if they still believe in him as a holy mortal?

Don't you see how absurd that is? Doesn't that raise any red flags? Don't you find an issue with that? It's just insane to think that Jesus or God could POSSIBLY want this absurd hatred based on one man.

Plain and simple, bad people don't go to heaven. Good people don't go to hell.

Goodness is not defined by believing or not believing in Jesus as the Son of God. To think such is blindness and ignorance.

You are condemning them to hellfire for not believing in Jesus as God. You believe that they will burn forever for this terrible act of neutrality. You believe they must be wrong, and therefore must be punished with eternal death. This persecution reminds me of another religious persecution regarding a certain heretic with a new idea.

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he does.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


We're just going in circles now, I've said what I said, and you've said what you've said. I really want this argument to stop, it's giving me headaches.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.
 

mazuac

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:17 pm
While it may be true, I hope that you someday reconsider this train of thought that holiness is defined by which name you give to God, rather than your actions as proof of holiness.  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:11 pm
divineseraph
mazuac
divineseraph
mazuac
b-asinine
Friendly Yoshi
Islam and Christianity are very different. Islam rejects Christ and kills any Christians due to their faith and their god is the god of War. It's also illegal to switch to other religions and they killl whooever does so. Allah also says that Christ was a prophet but he is THE prophet. They also have very differenct ways and views on how to get to heaven which they call paradise then we Christians.

As for the one religion thing it is really quite possible since the majority if not all religions except for Christianity have one thing in common: they all glorify man and some religions even claim that man can achieve in becoming gods themselves which isn't true and if it was, we would cause our own demise.


BULL.

Yes, Islam and Christianity are VERY different. Islam rejects Christ as the son of God, but they DO accept him as a prophet, as does Judaism. The majority of all Muslim people are very accepting of other religions, and a lot of mosques allow those of different practices to come into their place of prayer to mingle and pray to God (since Christians/Muslims/Jews share the same God, AKA Islamic God =/= God of War).

Allah =/= prophet. Allah = their name for "God." They do not call things very different, save for the language barrier.

Anyone can switch religions, and the only people who dictate OTHERWISE are the the people behind the Taliban and other Islamic radicals. But EVERY religion has people like these.

ISLAM DOES NOT = PAROCHIAL-MINDED KILLERS.

Now, my opinion on "one religion"... Impossible, and would completely ruin our world. It is impossible because religion is so ingrained into our different cultures, that it's like taking out a person's heart and expecting them to live. Not very many religions, in fact, glorify man. When you say "glorify", I presume you mean that they consider themselves of God-like power. Most of the religions out there practiced by the majority of people on this fine planet believe in celestial beings as being higher than themselves spiritually, though a lot of them worship THEMSELVES because they believe that their god/God resides in their body and is always with them.

I don't mean to be rude nor brash, but I suggest you look up facts before you talk about other religions.

-b.
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Jesus


I suggest you look up facts, as well. Judaism does NOT accept Jesus as a prophet! Where in the name of God most High did you ever find that?

Also, while Islam says they worship the same God as us, I disagree. There tenets, etc. are so far apart from our and the Jews God, even a blind man could see that.

Although, I do agree with you on the impossibility of a One World Religion~


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...My Lord, Savior, and Friend


Such different beliefs?
Five basic tenets-
1- There is One God.
2- Mohammed was a prophet, as were Jesus, Moses and all other aforementioned abrahamic prophets.
3- The Koran is the last holy book, following the Bible, Torah and Gospel of Jesus.
4- Life is a test to see who follows the basic rules.
5- The faithful go to heaven.

Five pillars (Much like christian and jewish 10 commandments)-

1- Profession of Faith (There is only one God)
2-Prayer (five time a day)
3- Giving alms to the poor (Jesus never did anything like this. He loved kicking beggars and pimp-slapping prostitutes.)
4-Fasting (Again, what kind of anti-christ b*****d would fast for, say, 40 days in the deserts of the middle east?)
5- Pilgrimage

I notice nothing about slaying the innocent, subjugating women or hating christians. In fact, in earlier times, muslims were extremely respectful of other religions and societies, and if an arab country took over another country, they would allow the old residents to worship any god in any way. They did not move militarily based on religion.

The God is the same God. The only thing that changes is the experiences and cultures present when His work is interpreted by the people.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Alright, about the tenets.

1. Yes, there is one God, we beleive that.

2. Jesus may have been a prophet, however he wasn't just "a prophet," he was the Son of God! Also, you know how we beleive Christ was nailed to the cross and ressurected? They do NOT beleive that. They also don't beleive he died for our salvation. There, see that? That basically proves that Islam is not like Christianity in any large way...

3. We don't beleive in the Koran, I have nothing more to say.

4. Life may be a test, yes, but ours is to show others Christ's lovingness, etc.

5. Yes, we beleive the faithful go to heaven. But unlike Islam, us Christians get to heaven purely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works or deeds. (Unlike in Islam.)

That right there should be enough proof to show you that Christianity and Islam are not "basically" the same. It infuriates me so much when people say that they are basically the same religion!

Oh, also. According to Islam, Jesus WOULD have been the perfectest person, however he never went to war (unlike mohammed.)

I really don't think I need to say more on this issue. I've proven my point.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


But they believe is JESUS! As a prophet, yes, but still as a very holy man! You're condemning them to hell because they feel that Jesus was one rank on the totem pole down?

And no, of course we don't believe in the Koran, it's the New New Testament.

An muslims don't show lovingness? What's all this giving to the poor and helping others? So what if it's in Mohammed's name, along with Jesus, Moses and Abraham's names? Or, more importantly, in the name of God?


Number 5 is just terrible. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Hitler gets heaven for being a christian.

Deeds and acts don't matter? It's just giving a wave or a hi-five to jesus on the way through the gates? Bull s**t. I'm sorry, if your religion really says this, then I want no part of it. I will take islam, since the good are rewarded for their deeds, not for fingering a cross. This blind bullshit is what makes bigots zealous. The same blind zeal and ignorance of one's own religion compels men to bomb other countries and fly airplanes into buildings.

This is going off track as someone else mentioned, but for once i do have to agree with divine. Well..actually we are both pro-life..but anyway :p

Christians don't go to heaven just for having faith and accepting the gift of salvation. "Faith without works is dead". If you do not live out your faith according to the laws that God has instructed us to abide by you won't go to heaven. Now do we have 600 something laws that if we break one we are screwed? No. Not at all. That's just getting all worked up about legalism. But you can't accept Christ and then become a pegan and still accept to go to heaven. I doubt even the pegan would think of it as a disgrace to possibly associate with the previous religion. ANd yes, it would be a religion and merely that if someone walks away from it that easily.

Going off topic i know, but you must ask yourself. If someone has grown up knowing Christ and at one point accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, then didn't really live it out and left it all together, was there any relationship to begin with? Without a relationship with our Heavenly Father I don't think you can get into heaven. Religion won't cut it. And frankly, that's what a lot of christians are breezing by on now.

If anyone has any responses please be respectful in the way that I have shown respect. Bitterness and anger don't get anyone anywhere.  

Siren of Saturn


divineseraph

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:04 pm
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
mazuac
divineseraph
mazuac
User Image
Jesus


I suggest you look up facts, as well. Judaism does NOT accept Jesus as a prophet! Where in the name of God most High did you ever find that?

Also, while Islam says they worship the same God as us, I disagree. There tenets, etc. are so far apart from our and the Jews God, even a blind man could see that.

Although, I do agree with you on the impossibility of a One World Religion~


User Image

...My Lord, Savior, and Friend


Such different beliefs?
Five basic tenets-
1- There is One God.
2- Mohammed was a prophet, as were Jesus, Moses and all other aforementioned abrahamic prophets.
3- The Koran is the last holy book, following the Bible, Torah and Gospel of Jesus.
4- Life is a test to see who follows the basic rules.
5- The faithful go to heaven.

Five pillars (Much like christian and jewish 10 commandments)-

1- Profession of Faith (There is only one God)
2-Prayer (five time a day)
3- Giving alms to the poor (Jesus never did anything like this. He loved kicking beggars and pimp-slapping prostitutes.)
4-Fasting (Again, what kind of anti-christ b*****d would fast for, say, 40 days in the deserts of the middle east?)
5- Pilgrimage

I notice nothing about slaying the innocent, subjugating women or hating christians. In fact, in earlier times, muslims were extremely respectful of other religions and societies, and if an arab country took over another country, they would allow the old residents to worship any god in any way. They did not move militarily based on religion.

The God is the same God. The only thing that changes is the experiences and cultures present when His work is interpreted by the people.
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Alright, about the tenets.

1. Yes, there is one God, we beleive that.

2. Jesus may have been a prophet, however he wasn't just "a prophet," he was the Son of God! Also, you know how we beleive Christ was nailed to the cross and ressurected? They do NOT beleive that. They also don't beleive he died for our salvation. There, see that? That basically proves that Islam is not like Christianity in any large way...

3. We don't beleive in the Koran, I have nothing more to say.

4. Life may be a test, yes, but ours is to show others Christ's lovingness, etc.

5. Yes, we beleive the faithful go to heaven. But unlike Islam, us Christians get to heaven purely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works or deeds. (Unlike in Islam.)

That right there should be enough proof to show you that Christianity and Islam are not "basically" the same. It infuriates me so much when people say that they are basically the same religion!

Oh, also. According to Islam, Jesus WOULD have been the perfectest person, however he never went to war (unlike mohammed.)

I really don't think I need to say more on this issue. I've proven my point.


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


But they believe is JESUS! As a prophet, yes, but still as a very holy man! You're condemning them to hell because they feel that Jesus was one rank on the totem pole down?

And no, of course we don't believe in the Koran, it's the New New Testament.

An muslims don't show lovingness? What's all this giving to the poor and helping others? So what if it's in Mohammed's name, along with Jesus, Moses and Abraham's names? Or, more importantly, in the name of God?


Number 5 is just terrible. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Hitler gets heaven for being a christian.

Deeds and acts don't matter? It's just giving a wave or a hi-five to jesus on the way through the gates? Bull s**t. I'm sorry, if your religion really says this, then I want no part of it. I will take islam, since the good are rewarded for their deeds, not for fingering a cross. This blind bullshit is what makes bigots zealous. The same blind zeal and ignorance of one's own religion compels men to bomb other countries and fly airplanes into buildings.

This is going off track as someone else mentioned, but for once i do have to agree with divine. Well..actually we are both pro-life..but anyway :p

Christians don't go to heaven just for having faith and accepting the gift of salvation. "Faith without works is dead". If you do not live out your faith according to the laws that God has instructed us to abide by you won't go to heaven. Now do we have 600 something laws that if we break one we are screwed? No. Not at all. That's just getting all worked up about legalism. But you can't accept Christ and then become a pegan and still accept to go to heaven. I doubt even the pegan would think of it as a disgrace to possibly associate with the previous religion. ANd yes, it would be a religion and merely that if someone walks away from it that easily.

Going off topic i know, but you must ask yourself. If someone has grown up knowing Christ and at one point accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, then didn't really live it out and left it all together, was there any relationship to begin with? Without a relationship with our Heavenly Father I don't think you can get into heaven. Religion won't cut it. And frankly, that's what a lot of christians are breezing by on now.

If anyone has any responses please be respectful in the way that I have shown respect. Bitterness and anger don't get anyone anywhere.


My idea includes the inverse- that pagans can get in as well, provided that they are decent people who follow the rules God set up. Basic human decency. And I do believe that it is indeed that simple, since "Don't kill, don't hurt, don't steal" seems pretty simple.

The real challenge comes when these things are weighed against worldly possessions- some people WILL steal, or hurt, or allow people to suffer, in order to have more money or more things. The rules are simple and easy to follow, if you value common decency over things.  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:49 pm
divineseraph
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
mazuac
divineseraph
mazuac
User Image
Jesus


I suggest you look up facts, as well. Judaism does NOT accept Jesus as a prophet! Where in the name of God most High did you ever find that?

Also, while Islam says they worship the same God as us, I disagree. There tenets, etc. are so far apart from our and the Jews God, even a blind man could see that.

Although, I do agree with you on the impossibility of a One World Religion~


User Image

...My Lord, Savior, and Friend


Such different beliefs?
Five basic tenets-
1- There is One God.
2- Mohammed was a prophet, as were Jesus, Moses and all other aforementioned abrahamic prophets.
3- The Koran is the last holy book, following the Bible, Torah and Gospel of Jesus.
4- Life is a test to see who follows the basic rules.
5- The faithful go to heaven.

Five pillars (Much like christian and jewish 10 commandments)-

1- Profession of Faith (There is only one God)
2-Prayer (five time a day)
3- Giving alms to the poor (Jesus never did anything like this. He loved kicking beggars and pimp-slapping prostitutes.)
4-Fasting (Again, what kind of anti-christ b*****d would fast for, say, 40 days in the deserts of the middle east?)
5- Pilgrimage

I notice nothing about slaying the innocent, subjugating women or hating christians. In fact, in earlier times, muslims were extremely respectful of other religions and societies, and if an arab country took over another country, they would allow the old residents to worship any god in any way. They did not move militarily based on religion.

The God is the same God. The only thing that changes is the experiences and cultures present when His work is interpreted by the people.
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Alright, about the tenets.

1. Yes, there is one God, we beleive that.

2. Jesus may have been a prophet, however he wasn't just "a prophet," he was the Son of God! Also, you know how we beleive Christ was nailed to the cross and ressurected? They do NOT beleive that. They also don't beleive he died for our salvation. There, see that? That basically proves that Islam is not like Christianity in any large way...

3. We don't beleive in the Koran, I have nothing more to say.

4. Life may be a test, yes, but ours is to show others Christ's lovingness, etc.

5. Yes, we beleive the faithful go to heaven. But unlike Islam, us Christians get to heaven purely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works or deeds. (Unlike in Islam.)

That right there should be enough proof to show you that Christianity and Islam are not "basically" the same. It infuriates me so much when people say that they are basically the same religion!

Oh, also. According to Islam, Jesus WOULD have been the perfectest person, however he never went to war (unlike mohammed.)

I really don't think I need to say more on this issue. I've proven my point.


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am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


But they believe is JESUS! As a prophet, yes, but still as a very holy man! You're condemning them to hell because they feel that Jesus was one rank on the totem pole down?

And no, of course we don't believe in the Koran, it's the New New Testament.

An muslims don't show lovingness? What's all this giving to the poor and helping others? So what if it's in Mohammed's name, along with Jesus, Moses and Abraham's names? Or, more importantly, in the name of God?


Number 5 is just terrible. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Hitler gets heaven for being a christian.

Deeds and acts don't matter? It's just giving a wave or a hi-five to jesus on the way through the gates? Bull s**t. I'm sorry, if your religion really says this, then I want no part of it. I will take islam, since the good are rewarded for their deeds, not for fingering a cross. This blind bullshit is what makes bigots zealous. The same blind zeal and ignorance of one's own religion compels men to bomb other countries and fly airplanes into buildings.

This is going off track as someone else mentioned, but for once i do have to agree with divine. Well..actually we are both pro-life..but anyway :p

Christians don't go to heaven just for having faith and accepting the gift of salvation. "Faith without works is dead". If you do not live out your faith according to the laws that God has instructed us to abide by you won't go to heaven. Now do we have 600 something laws that if we break one we are screwed? No. Not at all. That's just getting all worked up about legalism. But you can't accept Christ and then become a pegan and still accept to go to heaven. I doubt even the pegan would think of it as a disgrace to possibly associate with the previous religion. ANd yes, it would be a religion and merely that if someone walks away from it that easily.

Going off topic i know, but you must ask yourself. If someone has grown up knowing Christ and at one point accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, then didn't really live it out and left it all together, was there any relationship to begin with? Without a relationship with our Heavenly Father I don't think you can get into heaven. Religion won't cut it. And frankly, that's what a lot of christians are breezing by on now.

If anyone has any responses please be respectful in the way that I have shown respect. Bitterness and anger don't get anyone anywhere.


My idea includes the inverse- that pagans can get in as well, provided that they are decent people who follow the rules God set up. Basic human decency. And I do believe that it is indeed that simple, since "Don't kill, don't hurt, don't steal" seems pretty simple.

The real challenge comes when these things are weighed against worldly possessions- some people WILL steal, or hurt, or allow people to suffer, in order to have more money or more things. The rules are simple and easy to follow, if you value common decency over things.


My friend i must disagree. In my opinion, Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. If you don't believe that or agree with that, can we at least agree to disagree? This is a little, you've probably heard before, but how i see things smile

I believe in order to get to heaven through Jesus Christ you must do his works. In the Bible it says that "You shall have no other God before me". and he says that God is jealous for our hearts. It's because he loves us so much and wants our hearts for only him. I'm glad it's like that though...because now i know i have a relationship with him as my father, and He's the most incredible thing that has ever happened to my life. He is such a gentleman, kind, and loving. He knows me better than I do and wants only good things for me. He gives me only good and perfect gifts, and when i worship Him, when i come into that place where I am his perfect bride, there is no other place in the world, that i would rather be.

smile  

Siren of Saturn


divineseraph

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:41 pm
No other God, yet muslims and jews believe in the same God, but not in Jesus as the messiah.

Looking at the logic that Jesus IS God, then believing in Jesus is believing in God, and believing in God is believing in God, so believing in Jesus OR God is believing in the same thing. See the modus ponens above.  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:45 am
Quote:


I'm sorry, that's just not right. Murderers are OK for heaven if they believe that Jesus is God, while those who never hurt anyone don't get into heaven for not calling Jesus God? Even if they still believe in him as a holy mortal?

Don't you see how absurd that is? Doesn't that raise any red flags? Don't you find an issue with that? It's just insane to think that Jesus or God could POSSIBLY want this absurd hatred based on one man.

Plain and simple, bad people don't go to heaven. Good people don't go to hell.

Goodness is not defined by believing or not believing in Jesus as the Son of God. To think such is blindness and ignorance.

You are condemning them to hellfire for not believing in Jesus as God. You believe that they will burn forever for this terrible act of neutrality. You believe they must be wrong, and therefore must be punished with eternal death. This persecution reminds me of another religious persecution regarding a certain heretic with a new idea.

Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he does.



ok, let the little goth chika have a word in this.

"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it has the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes..." Romans 1:16

- to EVERYONE who believes, remember the two guys crucified along side Jesus? He said to them;

32Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."[e] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One." 36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself." 38There was a written notice above him, which read neutral sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:32-43

- in addition, it states clearly:

"For God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son. That whoever believes in him shall not parish, but have enternal life."
John 3:16

- there, he is also saying Jesus is his "one and only son", and it is stated many times that he said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." He is the only father and Jesus is the only son.

"...that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow....and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Philippians 2:10,11

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

- life in this phrase is being alive in Christ. The Word says that when you go to Hell, that is eternal separation from God. So, being forgiven and God having found is lost sheep, will he not be joyous and will we not be with our master in the kingdom? "You can not serve two masters."

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

And at last but not least....

""He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18


((like Siren said, pshyeah.))  

Angel of the End


Angel of the End

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:54 am
divineseraph
And I say bullshit. Yes, I am calling parts of the bible bullshit. Unless we should go back to killing women who practice sorcery and homosexuals.

It is simply wrong, and God knows that it is wrong. God would not make such bullshit. If he's so forgiving, why won't he forgive them for a misunderstanding?

And for that matter, if Jesus is God, then by believing in the same God, they believe in what Jesus wanted them to believe, according to you- God.

Logically explained through Modus Ponens.

J=G, C>J and M>G. Therefore, C=M.

J= Jesus, G= God, C= Christian, M = Muslim.

Jesus is God.
If christian, then (believe in) jesus. since Jesus is God, If christian, then (believe in) god.
If muslim, then (believe in) God.
Therefore, Christians= Muslims.



God gave us free will to decide what we wanted to do with our existance, and to choose to be forgiven by him or not. We serve one of two masters, thats it. How can a house that is divided against itself stand? And if there is more than one way into Heaven, why would God himself have come down and died a sinners death for the very people that rebuked him? Because he is a God of love who has given us free will because of this, and because a God of anything but love would not do such a thing. In addition, he does not tell us to kill or to judge. He himself would not condem whore and murderers who truely believed he was the son of God and wanted forgivness! Notice however, he did tell them to "go and sin no more".
And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:17
So.... misunderstanding might be part of it, but if God shows himself and they do not wish to understand or feel condemed or angry because of this, well, they choose that.  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:17 am
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
Siren of Saturn
divineseraph
mazuac
User Image
He has Redeemed Me!Though I


Alright, about the tenets.

1. Yes, there is one God, we beleive that.

2. Jesus may have been a prophet, however he wasn't just "a prophet," he was the Son of God! Also, you know how we beleive Christ was nailed to the cross and ressurected? They do NOT beleive that. They also don't beleive he died for our salvation. There, see that? That basically proves that Islam is not like Christianity in any large way...

3. We don't beleive in the Koran, I have nothing more to say.

4. Life may be a test, yes, but ours is to show others Christ's lovingness, etc.

5. Yes, we beleive the faithful go to heaven. But unlike Islam, us Christians get to heaven purely by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works or deeds. (Unlike in Islam.)

That right there should be enough proof to show you that Christianity and Islam are not "basically" the same. It infuriates me so much when people say that they are basically the same religion!

Oh, also. According to Islam, Jesus WOULD have been the perfectest person, however he never went to war (unlike mohammed.)

I really don't think I need to say more on this issue. I've proven my point.


User Image

am undeserving, He gave his life for
mine.


But they believe is JESUS! As a prophet, yes, but still as a very holy man! You're condemning them to hell because they feel that Jesus was one rank on the totem pole down?

And no, of course we don't believe in the Koran, it's the New New Testament.

An muslims don't show lovingness? What's all this giving to the poor and helping others? So what if it's in Mohammed's name, along with Jesus, Moses and Abraham's names? Or, more importantly, in the name of God?


Number 5 is just terrible. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Hitler gets heaven for being a christian.

Deeds and acts don't matter? It's just giving a wave or a hi-five to jesus on the way through the gates? Bull s**t. I'm sorry, if your religion really says this, then I want no part of it. I will take islam, since the good are rewarded for their deeds, not for fingering a cross. This blind bullshit is what makes bigots zealous. The same blind zeal and ignorance of one's own religion compels men to bomb other countries and fly airplanes into buildings.

This is going off track as someone else mentioned, but for once i do have to agree with divine. Well..actually we are both pro-life..but anyway :p

Christians don't go to heaven just for having faith and accepting the gift of salvation. "Faith without works is dead". If you do not live out your faith according to the laws that God has instructed us to abide by you won't go to heaven. Now do we have 600 something laws that if we break one we are screwed? No. Not at all. That's just getting all worked up about legalism. But you can't accept Christ and then become a pegan and still accept to go to heaven. I doubt even the pegan would think of it as a disgrace to possibly associate with the previous religion. ANd yes, it would be a religion and merely that if someone walks away from it that easily.

Going off topic i know, but you must ask yourself. If someone has grown up knowing Christ and at one point accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, then didn't really live it out and left it all together, was there any relationship to begin with? Without a relationship with our Heavenly Father I don't think you can get into heaven. Religion won't cut it. And frankly, that's what a lot of christians are breezing by on now.

If anyone has any responses please be respectful in the way that I have shown respect. Bitterness and anger don't get anyone anywhere.


My idea includes the inverse- that pagans can get in as well, provided that they are decent people who follow the rules God set up. Basic human decency. And I do believe that it is indeed that simple, since "Don't kill, don't hurt, don't steal" seems pretty simple.

The real challenge comes when these things are weighed against worldly possessions- some people WILL steal, or hurt, or allow people to suffer, in order to have more money or more things. The rules are simple and easy to follow, if you value common decency over things.


My friend i must disagree. In my opinion, Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. If you don't believe that or agree with that, can we at least agree to disagree? This is a little, you've probably heard before, but how i see things smile

I believe in order to get to heaven through Jesus Christ you must do his works. In the Bible it says that "You shall have no other God before me". and he says that God is jealous for our hearts. It's because he loves us so much and wants our hearts for only him. I'm glad it's like that though...because now i know i have a relationship with him as my father, and He's the most incredible thing that has ever happened to my life. He is such a gentleman, kind, and loving. He knows me better than I do and wants only good things for me. He gives me only good and perfect gifts, and when i worship Him, when i come into that place where I am his perfect bride, there is no other place in the world, that i would rather be.

smile
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He has Redeemed Me!Though I


That is what I was saying, to a degree. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. (Truth, the Light and the Way)

And by works, yes, we are told to have faith and have no other God except him. But by works, I mean, like, we are not required to give money to the poor. We Christians give money to the poor out of good spirit and Godliness that we have obtained through Christ. We are not required to worship/pray God five times a day, however we worship/pray him because we know he is listening and need his guidance. That's just the bases of it but yeah~


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am undeserving, He gave his life for mine.
 

mazuac

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