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flashpoint

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:27 pm


Could you really reconcile the dimensions of two wholly different philosophical traditions namely the economics behind socialism and the politics behind classical liberalism into one single ideology called "Left-Libertarianism" (or for that matter libertarian socialism)?

This ideology would have the liberal concept of the primacy of the individual over the state, but also the socialist belief of having the means of production under the control of the state.

Wouldn't it look farcical or inconsistent?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:35 am


There is no such thing as Libertarian socialism. A left libertarian, as I understand it, would be a libertarian with some leanings towards the liberal side, such as belief in the LIE that is global warming. There are examples of right leaning libertarians, such as pro-life libertarians, why can't there be some libertarians with left leaning tendancies? Especially since liberatrians believe in some leftist policies, such as Gay rights and ending the War on Drugs.

On a slightly different note, I do believe in Libertarian communism. An example would be a small town or farming community. In such places there is often a sense of community that causes people to volentarily help their neighbors. The idea is that everyone will volintarily give the best to their ability, and help their neighbors when they're in need. So communism and libertarinism are not strictly at odds with each other, but socialism and libertarianism are.

High_Assassin
Captain


PandoraXero

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:44 pm


High_Assassin
There is no such thing as Libertarian socialism. A left libertarian, as I understand it, would be a libertarian with some leanings towards the liberal side, such as belief in the LIE that is global warming. There are examples of right leaning libertarians, such as pro-life libertarians, why can't there be some libertarians with left leaning tendencies? Especially since libertarians believe in some leftist policies, such as Gay rights and ending the War on Drugs.

On a slightly different note, I do believe in Libertarian communism. An example would be a small town or farming community. In such places there is often a sense of community that causes people to voluntarily help their neighbors. The idea is that everyone will voluntarily give the best to their ability, and help their neighbors when they're in need. So communism and libertarianism are not strictly at odds with each other, but socialism and libertarianism are.
Global warming's not a lie. I hate to break it to you, but it really isn't. what leftists think CAUSES global warming reeks of Green Agenda.

Right-leaning libertarians. Absolutely. Lemme name a couple: Ron Paul, Alan Greenspan. Yes, Alan Greenspan.

--also, typos corrected, and... are you using a dvorak keyboard layout?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:05 pm


I was thinking of someone ike Noam Chomsky... his values are very liberal but his economics are very socialist

flashpoint


Michael Noire

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:19 am


Left Libertarianism brings to mind something I've been thinking about - the stereotype of intelligence.

It was while watching Harold and Kumar that I began to re-evaluate some stereotypes and then thought a bit about the South vs. the North, about the use of linguistics, and what's appropriate diction, etc. Then while walking home with broken leg (for a couple of miles using a cane) I saw a license plate for one of the southern states and an image of the wright brothers plane and something to the effect of "first to fly".

Then I thought about how many astronauts were actually southern or western, and then about the recent developments of LSU and come to think of it, the International Program of U. Virginia.

It's just a hypothesis right now (not a fully fledged theory) but it seems to me there may be something credible to the investigation of the myth of northern intelligence, and I noticed how very liberal/left it seemed.

Ultimately, I'm not sure how to break it down and categorize who came from where vs. who's really smart and what type of intelligence vs. brainwashing takes place, but I lived in NYC and now live in Long Island/Suffolk and I'm really beginning to think the intelligence of the northeast is really just a bunch of bullshit.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:33 pm


I am one of those left (progressive) Libertarians... well sorta.

For me it's more that I see personal liberties issues as some of my hottest buttons. Freedom of the soul (wha tthe liberals call the separation of church and state, but I try not to use that phrase), crunchy mothering, left-side unschooling/homeschooling are biggies for me. And I gravitate towards left-leaning candidates such as Mary Ruwart and Mike Gravel.

For the record, climate change is mostly real. I believe that human activity is a small fraction of the climate change picture and that solar activity is a much larger mover. Oh yeah, another large factor is Al Gore-- all that hot air does seem to be affecting things smile Not the way he would want it too either-- perhaps he'd best shut up already?

Now mind, I do see economic liberty as important. I see T** as a cuss word too, I see guns as being decidedly NOT a cuss word, and I too like my personal gold reserve.

Where I might depart from the LP line-- while I would not want to force organic (real organic, not the USDA farce) on anyone, it's something I do encourage anywhere I can. I am pretty rabidly anti-GA (not connected to my pro-organic stance either) I went to grad school to become a gene jockey and came out of there vowing never to support the GA system again. I know... too much. I do see it also as something of a property rights issue since genetic pollution in my mind is a real issue, particularly for corn farmers. There is a part of me that wants mandatory disclosure of any excitotoxin ingredients in food-- we have a tough time as my hubby is really sensitive to free glutamates.

Ladygaura


flashpoint

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:30 am


I dunno, first of all I am not American so I really don't know why you guys equate climate change with being liberal.

When I mean "liberal", I mean it in it's classical sense. You know, the kind of liberalism found in Europe and not the one in the US. So I suppose that when you mean "liberal" in America you mean it as progressive, am I right?

But anyhoo, I was thinking, is it possible for a person to possess a belief in forthright individualism, absolute liberty, and the minimal role of the state (liberal) but also believes in collectivism, the redistribution of wealth, and for the enlargement of the gov't to become a nanny for everyone (socialist).

I find it very contradicting.
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:41 am


Yeah Flash in America "liberal" usually means progressive/ left-sided like Democrats and Greens. Classical liberals are usually equated to Libertarians, but also to some in the R3volution and other freedom lovers.

I don't know how possible it is to truly reconcile redistribution and collectivism with Liberty. Mike Gravel seems to try. However I think that at some point the idea just has too much friction. Free spirits are always going to try and buck the system. Know what I mean?

Ladygaura


PandoraXero

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:59 am


Ladygaura
Yeah Flash in America "liberal" usually means progressive/ left-sided like Democrats and Greens. Classical liberals are usually equated to Libertarians, but also to some in the R3volution and other freedom lovers.

I don't know how possible it is to truly reconcile redistribution and collectivism with Liberty. Mike Gravel seems to try. However I think that at some point the idea just has too much friction. Free spirits are always going to try and buck the system. Know what I mean?
these days its way more complicated than "conservative" or "liberal" though. I mean, look at the neocons. its not really possible to class someone in a party based on their ideals. Ron Paul's a good example of this. despite that neocons have pretty much taken over the republican party, he keeps membership to that party ... and the people call him a maverick. I personally contend that the people running the republican party are the mavericks. George Washington was right. the party system has REALLY screwed us over because the parties keep changing direction.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:33 am


flashpoint

But anyhoo, I was thinking, is it possible for a person to possess a belief in forthright individualism, absolute liberty, and the minimal role of the state (liberal) but also believes in collectivism, the redistribution of wealth, and for the enlargement of the gov't to become a nanny for everyone (socialist).


Hello, I thought this was a libertarian guild why is no one telling him that he's advocating force?

If I had ''absolute liberty'' you couldn't get my work or the results of my work without my explicit consent.

FrolicsomeQuipster


Manguusu

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:09 pm


flashpoint
Could you really reconcile the dimensions of two wholly different philosophical traditions namely the economics behind socialism and the politics behind classical liberalism into one single ideology called "Left-Libertarianism" (or for that matter libertarian socialism)?

This ideology would have the liberal concept of the primacy of the individual over the state, but also the socialist belief of having the means of production under the control of the state.

Wouldn't it look farcical or inconsistent?


*Clears throat* From Wikipedia:
"Libertarian socialism (sometimes called socialist anarchism, and sometimes left libertarianism) is a group of political philosophies that aspire to create a society without political, economic, or social hierarchies, i.e. a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to the tools of information and production.

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions that own and control productive means as private property, so that direct control of these means of production and resources will be shared by society as a whole. Libertarian socialism also constitutes a tendency of thought that informs the identification, criticism and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of social life. Accordingly libertarian socialists believe that 'the exercise of power in any institutionalized form – whether economic, political, religious, or sexual – brutalizes both the wielder of power and the one over whom it is exercised.'

Libertarian socialists place their hopes in trade unions, workers' councils, municipalities, citizens' assemblies, and other non-bureaucratic, decentralized means of direct democracy. Many libertarian socialists advocate doing away with the state altogether, seeing it as a bulwark of capitalist class rule, while others propose that a minimal, non-hierarchical version is unobjectionable.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism, mutualism, social ecology, autonomism and council communism). Some writers use libertarian socialism synonymously with anarchism and in particular socialist anarchism."

LONG STORY SHORT: It isn't about creating a "Nanny State." It's about creating a mutualistic society run by direct democracy, one with complete equality. A society where each individual has free, equal access to information and the means of production. (Not necessarily a personal-property-less society.)

My signature shows my political position.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:50 am


flashpoint
Could you really reconcile the dimensions of two wholly different philosophical traditions namely the economics behind socialism and the politics behind classical liberalism into one single ideology called "Left-Libertarianism" (or for that matter libertarian socialism)?

This ideology would have the liberal concept of the primacy of the individual over the state, but also the socialist belief of having the means of production under the control of the state.

Wouldn't it look farcical or inconsistent?


If by reconcile you mean without contradictions, no.
However, it seems a great many libertarians, or any person for that matter, don't care too much about contradictions.

Let me put it this way. An individual has to live, does it not? How do humans live? By producing. In society, this is why we have the rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and (by extension) property. We have the right to not have our lives taken away, we have the right to act freely, which is a necessity of production, we have the right to pursue our own ends, which is necessary if we are to produce for ourselves, and we have a right to the things we make, earn, or buy, which is necessary if we intend to consume such things and thus stay alive.

To take away the means of production from the individual is to take away an individual's rights and means of survival. What does that mean? That means you're sacrificing the individual to the state. You're sacrificing a non-concept, an abstract, for a concrete. The state is nothing, literally. You can't find an example of the state in reality: there is no concrete, living, breathing, hard, material state. A state is a collection of individuals. Once you start taking away from the individuals to give to the state, you're committing a ridiculous contradiction and eroding the freedom of everyone. You're taking one step closer to savagery.

Obviously, for a person to believe in freedom, it takes a whole hell of a lot of non-thinking to "lean to the left."

Iudicious

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