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 Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:13 pm
This pretty much is just a place to discuss the morality of artificial contraception, and keep it in one place, without derailing another thread.
Feel free to copy and paste from other discussions. There is a very interesting debate going on, it's just in the wrong place, and this is an effort to keep it in the right place. If anyone would rather I post the conversation thus far instead of going back and quoting everything themselves, I will gladly do so.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:37 pm
 Rhia Kolareny NFP (Natural Family Planning) goes deeper than just counting days. I don't have a reliable cycle, either (In fact, I only get mine three to five times a year). There are a number of different types of plans you can choose from, classes you can take, NFP-only doctors you could go to for help and advice. I haven't looked into it much myself because I'm personally not concerned about it. I don't even know if I'm fertile and if any of this will have any impact on me in the end, so I can't give you many details about it. But if you really were interested, there are plenty of places to go to research it. It would definitely be an interesting thing to research. Quote: By the by, I think communication is a lot more important to a marriage than sex. Sex is a bond that brings spouses closer together, but if you rely on a healthy sex life to keep your marriage together, what happens when one spouse has to go away for a long time? Or what if one spouse can't have sex for a long time for some reason or another? I think depending on a healthy and regular sex life is something that destroys a lot of marriages. But that's just my opinion. I'm kind of insulted at the fact that you automatically assumed by my saying that sex is a perfectly normal and healthy part of marriage means that I believe that it outweighs communication. I do believe that communication is more important than sex, that love comes before lust, and that sex should have meaning in a marriage, thank you very much.
I would hate to be in a marriage where our relationship revolves around sex. All I'm saying is that I want a healthy sex life with my husband in the future because I believe that it is one of many important things a marriage needs to remain happy and healthy and wonderful. Did I ever say that it is the thing it needs to remain happy and healthy and wonderful? Absolutely not.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:44 pm
One problem I have with what you're saying, Rhia, is that you're saying artificial contraception is "closing the door to God." Think about what you're saying, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that you shouldn't use artificial contraception because it means you are not allowing God to do as He wants. But in point of fact, God can do whatever He wants. Artificial contraception isn't 100%, and even if it was, God could ignore the laws of nature that made it so, if He wanted you to have a child.
On the other hand, natural family planning actually -is- closing the door to God. It's saying, "I know when I am capable of getting pregnant, and I'm not going to have sex then." It's much more efficient at blocking God out than artificial contraception is. Yet the Church accepts it, and not artificial contraception. Why? In both cases, you are taking steps to enjoy sex without having to worry about the consequences. The only difference is that one requires more willpower than the other. Which actually sounds to me like it's even more like going against God, because you resist the urge to have sex, a God given urge, when you are fertile and don't want a child. It's much more willful.
Anyways, I'm going on and on so I'll shut up now. Just my point of view. Oh, and I do agree with natural family planning, and I think that a lot of groups downplay it when they shouldn't. Probably so that they can sell more artificial contraceptives, which is kind of disgusting because "The Pill" is a pharmaceutical, and, thus, has side effects like any other drug. It's much safer to be doing it the natural way.
(So we are using this thread, then? :Sweat: So confused...)
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:54 pm
Interesting points, Andy. I never thought of it that way.
I like how you brought up that both artificial and natural contraception serve the same purpose: to prevent pregnancy. If they meet the same end, either neither of them are playing God or both of them are playing God.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:58 pm
Exactly. 3nodding I don't have a problem with the idea that we shouldn't block God in our lives, but I've never seen the distinction that's made between blocking it by purposeful abstinence, and blocking it by artificial means.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:28 pm
Ebony...I wasn't suggesting that you personally thing sex is the only thing important to marriage... Just to say this now, I do my best not to personally insult any person I'm talking to. I was just trying to state my own viewpoint in that area. ((Everyone's so confrontational in this guild @-@))
@I.am - Yes, God can do whatever He wants, but the fantastic thing about God is that He honors the Free Choice He gave us. If Mary had said "No" to Gabriel during the Annunciation, sure, God could easily place Jesus into her women without her saying yes, but would He have? I don't think so. that's what makes her "Yes" so fantastic. I think people tend to forget about our Choice when they talk about God and His Will.
God understands, I think, that not everyone can have a dozen kids, and knows perfectly well that at some points in the marriage, they may not be able to support any more children. Responsibility is part of marriage - knowing how many children you can support is a big thing about marriage. The difference between contraception and NFP is the intention behind them. Contraception, biologically, cuts off the possibility for conception. It's saying "I know best, and I don't want there to be any chance of my choice being taken away." But with NFP, you're using the natural period of infertility, something God gave us, to naturally take responsibility for regulating the size of the family.
For me, personally, I don't like either way. But I'm not every person, and I understand that not everyone has the support system that I have. I hope to have a dozen or two children, and I have a family that's ready and willing to support that. There are some families out there that don't feel they can afford more than two or three children. By following NFP, they're telling God "Well, we don't think we're ready for another child, but we're leaving it open to You if You think we should have another." While with contraception, it's "We don't think we're ready, and we're not taking any chances."
I hope that makes sense...
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:37 pm
Why is it different though? God gave us the materials to create artificial contraception, didn't He?
I'm taking antibiotics right now. If I don't, I'll die in 10-15 years. Should I stop taking them and say, "If God wants me cured, he'll cure me." He's surely capable of it, if that is His plan and His will, but He's also given us materials, on this earth, to solve the same problem.
Artificial contraception has about the same failure rate as NFP when used correctly. You're taking the same chances. It's just harder to use NFP correctly; it takes more work and more self control, but if you put that work in, you're taking the same exact risks.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:40 pm
Rhia Kolareny Ebony...I wasn't suggesting that you personally thing sex is the only thing important to marriage... Just to say this now, I do my best not to personally insult any person I'm talking to. I was just trying to state my own viewpoint in that area. ((Everyone's so confrontational in this guild @-@)) I'm actually not a confrontational person. If you do some post-stalking, you'll find that I debate in a pro-online dating thread, and one of our main arguments is that sex is not the only aspect of a fully-functional, loving relationship. I simply found it ironic that you said that.
If I never said that I thought that sex is less important than communication (which I never did), then why, pray tell, would you feel the need to address it? If I never said that I would rely on a healthy sex life for keeping a marriage together, why address it? I never even implied either of those things. Quote: @I.am - Yes, God can do whatever He wants, but the fantastic thing about God is that He honors the Free Choice He gave us. If Mary had said "No" to Gabriel during the Annunciation, sure, God could easily place Jesus into her women without her saying yes, but would He have? I don't think so. that's what makes her "Yes" so fantastic. I think people tend to forget about our Choice when they talk about God and His Will. Do you think that God would have asked Mary to bear His son unless He knew that she would accept and be a wonderful mother for the boy? He didn't draw Mary's name out of a hat. Quote: God understands, I think, that not everyone can have a dozen kids, and knows perfectly well that at some points in the marriage, they may not be able to support any more children. Responsibility is part of marriage - knowing how many children you can support is a big thing about marriage. The difference between contraception and NFP is the intention behind them. Contraception, biologically, cuts off the possibility for conception. It's saying "I know best, and I don't want there to be any chance of my choice being taken away." But with NFP, you're using the natural period of infertility, something God gave us, to naturally take responsibility for regulating the size of the family. But do they not serve the same purpose? Either they are both "cutting off" God's will, or neither of them are. Regardless of the "intention" behind them, they do the same thing, and you cannot deny this. Quote: For me, personally, I don't like either way. But I'm not every person, and I understand that not everyone has the support system that I have. I hope to have a dozen or two children, and I have a family that's ready and willing to support that. There are some families out there that don't feel they can afford more than two or three children. By following NFP, they're telling God "Well, we don't think we're ready for another child, but we're leaving it open to You if You think we should have another." While with contraception, it's "We don't think we're ready, and we're not taking any chances." If you didn't have the support system you have, perhaps the second option wouldn't seem so bad. I'm just throwing that out there after spending three weeks with a cousin, last summer, who got his girlfriend pregnant (they're both juniors in high school). Luckily, his family is supportive and kind and gracious. But to pretend that the first thoughts of the family when the test came back positive were "Thank the Lord! A baby!" is a bit silly.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:42 pm
lymelady I'm taking antibiotics right now. If I don't, I'll die in 10-15 years. Should I stop taking them and say, "If God wants me cured, he'll cure me." He's surely capable of it, if that is His plan and His will, but He's also given us materials, on this earth, to solve the same problem. Excellent point.
How far does medical research go before it's defying God's will?
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:54 pm
I don't think I'll ever be able to give you the magic formula as to why contraception is bad. There's another side of it, that contraception holds back a piece of yourself from your spouse, but that's just as hard to argue.
There's also the fact that contraception used between married people is not the main irk that the Church has with contraception. The handiness of contraception and the way it's pushed onto teenagers is connected to the increase of pre-marital and teen sex. ((There's also a connection between contraception and divorce, but I don't know all of the facts about that, so I can't go into it.))
I'm not sure how much more I can talk about this. It's such a tense subject for me, personally, and it's really difficult for me to talk about without getting emotional.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:00 pm
I'm sorry, I hope I'm not upsetting you or being too confrontational. I do agree with you on a lot of things. I'm very interested in your arguments, and it's making me think, which I like to do.
But if you're not comfortable discussing it, I understand completely, and again, I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:01 pm
Same here. You don't have to debate if you don't want to.
Edit! I'd also like to add that there are lots of things you said that I agree with and think are true. I think NPF is a great form of contraception, and it's a great thing to look into for many married couples.
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:09 pm
As far as confrontational, you did join a guild about abortion. xd Our regulars almost all have debated the issue at some point or another. And as for me, in that original post, I felt pretty insulted by the way that Shanra was telling me what my beliefs should be and all. And I try not to be too aggressive, but I do feel strongly about this, because it doesn't make any sense to me. Part of the reason I debate is to question my own beliefs and either strengthen or change them, because it's a lot harder to see the failures in your own arguments.
On the issue: I would argue that the intention, in fact, is the same. You're just phrasing it differently. And if, in fact, it is the intention, can I not use artificial contraception saying, "Well, I don't want a child right now, but if the condom breaks, or the Pill doesn't work properly, I can live with that?" Or what if someone says, "I am going to perfect NFP, so that I never have to have a child when I don't want to?" Does that make that particular case of NFP a sin? Basically, the way I see it, as long as I truly am Pro-Life and am willing to accept responsibility for and take care of the child that could result, than it doesn't matter whether I'm using artificial or natural contraception; In both cases, I am saying, "I don't want/don't think I can take care of a child right now, but if God wills that I should, than I will."
But if the intention really is the problem, the Church should make the intention the sin. It's simply not fair to say that one's a sin and the other's not when the intention is what really matters, not the method.
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:20 pm
question Where was this topic continued from? (I don't want to say a bunch of stuff that's already been said.)
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:10 pm
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Reply
