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 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:08 pm
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lordstar promised_child lordstar Eaten By Cheese Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.
Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information. List of things not to do: Yell bomb on an airplane Yell fire in a crowed building or otherwise cause mass panic without need (I know its fun but people could get hurt) anyway the point I’m getting at is that not all censorship is harmful something about clear and present danger comes to mind I would think we could agree the above might be beneficial the problem we face is what is clear and present danger I don't think the movie is all that dangerous good point. also, hate speach where the people cant walk away- thus causing a riot... all of these are felonies according to the supreme court. a nice addition to the list of things not to do well done
thank you *bows deeply, while maintaining eye contact, causing her head to crain up oddly.* |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:51 am
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Eaten By Cheese Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.
Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information.
In addition to the whole censorship thing. Pretty much they explained this but we live in a free country with one catch. Our freedom is extensive...up to a point. We can do anything we want as long as it doesn't infringe upon someone else's rights, which is what they were explaining with all the examples.
See, I agree with your last bit, the whole you need to see for yourself thing. But the deal is that number one, some Christians don't feel comfortable reading or watching something that, on being informed from people they trust, they believe to be attacking of the most dear parts of their lives. |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:10 am
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Tarrou Equating God with government only works if the government in your analogy is a monarchy or dictatorship. If God is punishing people for not obeying his 'laws', then he is acting as a tyrant, rendering his judgment on a world of serfs who never consented to be a part of his kingdom and who are bound by laws that, regardless of whether they are just or not, are beyond their power to change. In a democratic state, however, the government is a social entity empowered by the people to maintain the social contract that we as citizens have entered into with one another. Since the government derives its power from our common consent, we have the power to effect changes in the application and execution of its laws—the exact opposite of God's system of governance. Of course, if you believe that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious, then my characterization of God as a dictator will make little sense: Since what he decrees to be good is inherently so, how could we object to his right of judgment? I, on the other hand, tend to believe that that which is pious is pious only because it is loved by the gods. With the exception of the biblical injunctions against that which violates an earthly ethic of reciprocity, all of God's little taboos and demands that we fall at his feet and worship his Glory are a fiat morality, as bereft of inherent worth as a paper bill. I reject God's right to punish me for impiety in the same way that I would reject a totalitarian government's right to punish me for insufficient patriotic zeal.
Technically, it's hardly a tyrrany if He only becomes your leader if you accept Him as such first. Right now, He is leaving you to your own life pretty much. You want to do things on your own? Well you are. A tyrannical leader takes over whther or not you accept Him as leader and forces you to follow his way...from what I can see, you are freely dismissing Him which means He isn't forcing you to live the way He hoped you would, hence, far from tyrranical (I spelled that word wrong didn't I?) And thinking about it, God didn't necessarily punish His people. Starting from Adam and Eve, the Lord gave us free choice. That is what the tree was. Because it means nothing if we choose Him because He is the only thing we see. From the very beginning we chose sin. God promised that because we wanted free choice, that's what we'd get. So we got it. Now if we don't choose Him, He won't force you to believe in Him...though, He is still right there staring you in the face.
To tell you the truth, the pious aren't loved by God because we are pious. So you are terribly correct in that the pious are pious because we are loved by God. Because...we are imperfect. We could not follow God if He just threw us the Bible and watched us. He is with us, he helps us when we realize He is the only way to succeed. God isn't saying to bow at His feet because He created us just for glorification. He doesn't have a big head like people. But, He knows the truth. And He knows that we have goals that WE don't even know about so He decides to make us, the sinners, happy by guiding us. But He cannot make us happy if we don't believe He can. If we believe only we know then we won't let Him. We will continue to work things out our way and screw it up far more than we realize and hence, we will lose true happiness. He wants happiness for us, that is why He is telling us to follow Him, to give our lives to Him, to trust Him.
And plus, if you think about it from human logic, it doesn't matter if you reject the punishment, you will still feel the pain and be subject to it.
Plus, what do you matter when it comes to God's judgement? If no human matters, then do you think He will read your last statement, have a revelation, and consider Himself in the wrong? He knows everything that was, is, and will be, I'm pretty sure He knows more about the difference in right and wrong that you do who has had only a limited view of right and wrong. |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:23 am
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lordstar Ok and one more time I never said that God was evil...ever And since we are on the subject of things I have not said There are some punishments I do not agree with I do not agree the death penalty, for all that lie in vengeance wake are the mournful cries of those who survive. Now that I think of it...I have said that...a number of times, perhaps not recently enough for some to recall you are right, apparently God does help his subjects...but not in the same way government does (I will concede your point on this Tarrou) I'm thinking of the devastation of choosing punishment (oh and eternal hellfire just takes the cake, people tossed aside for eternity like rubbish) over constructive (for lack of better words atm) healing What does punishment do other than instill fear and hate in the harts of those subject to it It does nothing more then turn their eyes and blacken their hearts, thoughts of vengeance fill their minds (perhaps not every case yes?) Perhaps I am too harsh? "Well, it seems like you are debating much more with the idea of God applying law than with government applying it." oh how right you are now last I checked I didn't make this into a biblical debate, however, this is a Christian forum...I should have known I try to debate outside the confines of the bible but I get dragged kicking and screaming all the way back...It's to be expected I suppose Why would I post in a Christian forum? You guys are a lot of fun...that is all...a good reason yes? And what is this about finding a solid point of view to model? To model? You would settle for a model rather than take a look at the world with your own eyes and try to make your own conclusions? Such a notion is....grrrr...frustrating. Well at least your eyes are open to other people’s perspectives. I commend you for that.
Once again, I apologize for anything I assumed or mistook. So I am sorry.
I took the whole you saying God is evil thing because of the way you argue your point. The way anyone who doesn't believe in Him is. "If He were real, then He is unjust..." So from reading those, I take the whole you think God is evil deal. And may I say, that Heaven and Hell is also a choice. Like I have tried saying constantly, the whole reason we have sin, the whole reason we can say we don't believe in God, is because we have choice. The problem is when we don't choose God, we choose sin, or Satan if you will. HE is the one who takes us to Hell. Just because God was the one to proclaim that it is either Him or Hell, that doesn't mean HE is the one who mandated it. It just means that is what is happening. Hell isn't a punishment, it is a place you are choosing to go. And not because God wanted it that way, but because sin created it. It all started in Eden, God gave us the chance to live without that option, to live without choosing Sin. Heck, He gave us explicit directions to AVOID the sin and told us what the sin was, yet we still chose to open Hell to ourselves...hence, Hell is not an option opened by God, but by us. It is the result of our actions, not His.
...I totally got off topic, I am very sorry. But the whole point of that is that we look at it as His punishment for use not following His law, but I am just like you a sinner...Yet I am not being punished...It's not the loosing footing from His law that makes us go to Hell. It is refusal of His protection.
If you are in jail, and someone comes to bring the expensive bail for you and all you have to do is say you promise to try not to do wrong anymore, and they will even help you eevry time you call on them no matter what time, you can choose to deny that. But can you honestly look at them and tell them that, because you won't take their gift of bail because of the terms they placed because they wanted the best for you, they are punishing you by letting you stay in jail. What if they came to visit you for as long as they could every day? It isn't punishment, it is choice. It was your choice to do what you did to be put in that jail and it was your choice to stay there when you had an open gift with nothing but a promise you'd need to make for your own good anyways.
Obviously, to the person in the jail (depending on the person, because a bunch of us take that gift) it is a stupid deal. It isn't a gift if we need to make a promise. The person doing this is an idiot and they are keeping us unfairly in the jail because we won't make a stupid promise. They can't just pay the stupid fine and leave us alone? And we won't ever go see them when they visit us right? It's all a joke to us because this person is just trying to use us to their advantage. When we get out, they won't ever leave us alone, they'll just check up on us constantly. They aren't freeing us from this cell because they want what's best for us but because they want gratification...Isn't that what you think?
And, seriously no offense, but off course you will be dragged kicking and screaming back to the bible when you are debating a religious debate...well unless you are all debating against. Our base is God's word, so obviously we are going to argue what we believe. I constantly tell people, it is hard to transcend the gap between the religious and the non-religious debater. You use facts and figures and knowledge of this world. I use what I feel, what I know is true which is far from a worldly knowledge. But you don’t believe in my knowledge and while I take credit of your knowledge, I cannot put extensive credit to it. So, what is the point of debating then? You are hoping I will someday see your point, and I am hoping someday you will see my point. So really, you can’t complain that we use bible views. And if I complain about you using worldly knowledge I apologize. Because that is what you believe.
And you are right, that point about you arguing God more than government was correct. This is a religious argument. And I don’t know you in a way that I can realize your arguments about government. So while I cannot retract that statement I, once more apologize for making an ignorant statement.
Quote: And what is this about finding a solid point of view to model? To model? You would settle for a model rather than take a look at the world with your own eyes and try to make your own conclusions? Such a notion is....grrrr...frustrating. Well at least your eyes are open to other people’s perspectives. I commend you for that.
Ok, obviously, my opinion is that a solid point of view to model isn’t human. Human’s constantly change. Our minds are constantly trying to understand right and wrong which means we change our mind to accommodate what we learn and such. A solid view to me is something that DOES know…which is the bible. And yes, I would rather know the difference between right and wrong. Isn’t that the whole deal? That’s why I am following God, because I want to know right. I want to make Him proud of me, so I want to do right. For the most part, I don’t trust the world to give me the full understanding of that difference. Yes, there are many good examples, but, for the most part, no I do not. We are all humans on this earth, we all make mistakes. |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:52 am
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:30 pm
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JJ-Freak lordstar Ok and one more time I never said that God was evil...ever And since we are on the subject of things I have not said There are some punishments I do not agree with I do not agree the death penalty, for all that lie in vengeance wake are the mournful cries of those who survive. Now that I think of it...I have said that...a number of times, perhaps not recently enough for some to recall you are right, apparently God does help his subjects...but not in the same way government does (I will concede your point on this Tarrou) I'm thinking of the devastation of choosing punishment (oh and eternal hellfire just takes the cake, people tossed aside for eternity like rubbish) over constructive (for lack of better words atm) healing What does punishment do other than instill fear and hate in the harts of those subject to it It does nothing more then turn their eyes and blacken their hearts, thoughts of vengeance fill their minds (perhaps not every case yes?) Perhaps I am too harsh? "Well, it seems like you are debating much more with the idea of God applying law than with government applying it." oh how right you are now last I checked I didn't make this into a biblical debate, however, this is a Christian forum...I should have known I try to debate outside the confines of the bible but I get dragged kicking and screaming all the way back...It's to be expected I suppose Why would I post in a Christian forum? You guys are a lot of fun...that is all...a good reason yes? And what is this about finding a solid point of view to model? To model? You would settle for a model rather than take a look at the world with your own eyes and try to make your own conclusions? Such a notion is....grrrr...frustrating. Well at least your eyes are open to other people’s perspectives. I commend you for that. Once again, I apologize for anything I assumed or mistook. So I am sorry. I took the whole you saying God is evil thing because of the way you argue your point. The way anyone who doesn't believe in Him is. "If He were real, then He is unjust..." So from reading those, I take the whole you think God is evil deal. And may I say, that Heaven and Hell is also a choice. Like I have tried saying constantly, the whole reason we have sin, the whole reason we can say we don't believe in God, is because we have choice. The problem is when we don't choose God, we choose sin, or Satan if you will. HE is the one who takes us to Hell. Just because God was the one to proclaim that it is either Him or Hell, that doesn't mean HE is the one who mandated it. It just means that is what is happening. Hell isn't a punishment, it is a place you are choosing to go. And not because God wanted it that way, but because sin created it. It all started in Eden, God gave us the chance to live without that option, to live without choosing Sin. Heck, He gave us explicit directions to AVOID the sin and told us what the sin was, yet we still chose to open Hell to ourselves...hence, Hell is not an option opened by God, but by us. It is the result of our actions, not His. ...I totally got off topic, I am very sorry. But the whole point of that is that we look at it as His punishment for use not following His law, but I am just like you a sinner...Yet I am not being punished...It's not the loosing footing from His law that makes us go to Hell. It is refusal of His protection. If you are in jail, and someone comes to bring the expensive bail for you and all you have to do is say you promise to try not to do wrong anymore, and they will even help you eevry time you call on them no matter what time, you can choose to deny that. But can you honestly look at them and tell them that, because you won't take their gift of bail because of the terms they placed because they wanted the best for you, they are punishing you by letting you stay in jail. What if they came to visit you for as long as they could every day? It isn't punishment, it is choice. It was your choice to do what you did to be put in that jail and it was your choice to stay there when you had an open gift with nothing but a promise you'd need to make for your own good anyways. Obviously, to the person in the jail (depending on the person, because a bunch of us take that gift) it is a stupid deal. It isn't a gift if we need to make a promise. The person doing this is an idiot and they are keeping us unfairly in the jail because we won't make a stupid promise. They can't just pay the stupid fine and leave us alone? And we won't ever go see them when they visit us right? It's all a joke to us because this person is just trying to use us to their advantage. When we get out, they won't ever leave us alone, they'll just check up on us constantly. They aren't freeing us from this cell because they want what's best for us but because they want gratification...Isn't that what you think? And, seriously no offense, but off course you will be dragged kicking and screaming back to the bible when you are debating a religious debate...well unless you are all debating against. Our base is God's word, so obviously we are going to argue what we believe. I constantly tell people, it is hard to transcend the gap between the religious and the non-religious debater. You use facts and figures and knowledge of this world. I use what I feel, what I know is true which is far from a worldly knowledge. But you don’t believe in my knowledge and while I take credit of your knowledge, I cannot put extensive credit to it. So, what is the point of debating then? You are hoping I will someday see your point, and I am hoping someday you will see my point. So really, you can’t complain that we use bible views. And if I complain about you using worldly knowledge I apologize. Because that is what you believe. And you are right, that point about you arguing God more than government was correct. This is a religious argument. And I don’t know you in a way that I can realize your arguments about government. So while I cannot retract that statement I, once more apologize for making an ignorant statement. Quote: And what is this about finding a solid point of view to model? To model? You would settle for a model rather than take a look at the world with your own eyes and try to make your own conclusions? Such a notion is....grrrr...frustrating. Well at least your eyes are open to other people’s perspectives. I commend you for that. Ok, obviously, my opinion is that a solid point of view to model isn’t human. Human’s constantly change. Our minds are constantly trying to understand right and wrong which means we change our mind to accommodate what we learn and such. A solid view to me is something that DOES know…which is the bible. And yes, I would rather know the difference between right and wrong. Isn’t that the whole deal? That’s why I am following God, because I want to know right. I want to make Him proud of me, so I want to do right. For the most part, I don’t trust the world to give me the full understanding of that difference. Yes, there are many good examples, but, for the most part, no I do not. We are all humans on this earth, we all make mistakes.
Heaven and Hell are both consequences not choices
I just can't see people choosing eternal hellfire
they may do things that may land them in eternal hellfire but perhaps such judgment might be a bit black and white
Now if God made the system God is a partner in the "crime"
our existence makes us partners in every crime ever committed or to be committed
this doesn't mean that we had much of a choice in the matter but we could have done something even if we didn't know what was going on
just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there
but it might as well not be there if you don't know it is there
so my point on this is
is our existence a factor that plays a part in all that is (yes)
does that mean we should be held accountable for all that is (that is just silly)
our very existence is sin if you think about it
where is the choice in that?
I have made a case that Eden did not really exist
take a look at older accounts of the story and you may find a few major differences
now for my personal stance
using the bible in an debate only weakens your argument
try not using any biblical references and see how a real debate looks
oh and being called a sinner is rather offensive, however, seeing as you made it relevant to your argument and that I happen to know where such a statement is coming from I'll let it slide
I do however still hold that right and wrong do not exist but for the purpose of defining what people like and dislike (very relative terms and please leave possible justified genocide out of the argument because we have already gone there and It is way off my point pm me if you want an explanation) [your a smart girl...you can figure it out right]
and your jail scenario brings up another point I've made elsewhere
someone can't make a promise to not do something and be expected to keep it...that would be a total setup for failure and I see your scenario as a person being punished further for being honest and perhaps the constant visiting considered malicious
and just because someone thinks they know best that doesn't mean it is best and the only way to figure out what might be best is for the person to in question to figure it out for themselves otherwise the person would be walking around with a blindfold on
quite simple perfection is not possible (It does exist but might as well not)
now if it was me in jail I really would be very happy if someone posted my bail but although if I did take the deal I would feel like I owed the person but I would necessarily think posting bail to be a object of manipulation as you may have thought I might
our little debate we have going did not start as a religious debate nor was that the intention and reading you admit how little confidence you have in yourself is just blows my mind |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:42 pm
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JJ-Freak Technically, it's hardly a tyrrany if He only becomes your leader if you accept Him as such first. [...] So we got it. Now if we don't choose Him, He won't force you to believe in Him...though, He is still right there staring you in the face.
I am free, but only temporarily. God retains the right of punishment, and according to most Christian theologies, He wields it most mercilessly. I can deny the legitimacy of a tyrannical government, and while I am indeed free so long as I evade their grasp, my freedom ends the minute they put a bullet in the back of my skull. A tyrant is no less a tyrant for the Resistance's refusal to bow to him; he still has the power of the state, or in God's case, the furnace.
Quote: To tell you the truth, the pious aren't loved by God because we are pious. So you are terribly correct in that the pious are pious because we are loved by God. Because...we are imperfect.
My apologies. I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Euthyphro dilemma. Another way to phrase it would have been: Is what is good commanded by God because it is good, or is it good because it is commanded by God? My belief is that Abrahamic ethics are based almost entirely on divine fiat and have an inherent moral justification about as solid as a godly 'Becasue I said so'.
Quote: And plus, if you think about it from human logic, it doesn't matter if you reject the punishment, you will still feel the pain and be subject to it.
Right, hence my contention that the freedom you attributed to humans is at best fleeting and at worst totally illusory.
Quote: Plus, what do you matter when it comes to God's judgement? If no human matters, then do you think He will read your last statement, have a revelation, and consider Himself in the wrong? He knows everything that was, is, and will be, I'm pretty sure He knows more about the difference in right and wrong that you do who has had only a limited view of right and wrong.
I refuse to bow down to the ineffable. If you cannot explain your morality to a child, much less an adult, then I have a deep suspicion that you are doing ethical somersaults trying to efface your own sins. Every cruelty can be justified; every petty tyrant claims to be striving for the greater good. I will keep my own counsel on what is right. If there is a God when I die, then I will ask him to explain himself, to explain Hell and suffering, and if he cannot or will not, then I will be satisfied that I did not choose wrongly in denying him my fealty.
What do I have if not my principles? A man cannot help but live according to what he believes is true—a sentiment that I'm sure the faithful can identify with. I will not sacrifice my sense of justice to mystery and fear.
Quote: The problem is when we don't choose God, we choose sin, or Satan if you will. HE is the one who takes us to Hell.
Most Christian theologies are not Manichean; God rules over Satan as surely as he rules the rest of creation. If Satan takes us to Hell, it is because God allows it, approves of it. God is the author of the punishment, if not the crime, and so the moral weight of eternal torment falls ultimately to him.
Quote: It was your choice to do what you did to be put in that jail and it was your choice to stay there when you had an open gift with nothing but a promise you'd need to make for your own good anyways.
I am in jail because my of my father's crime and because I am unwilling to bow in recognition of the wisdom and mercy of the man who imprisoned me for another's sins. I can be free if only I kiss the ring of my captor and call him 'just', but why would I? I do no believe that I should be in this jail; I certainly do not believe in the mercy of my jailer. I was brought up on false charges, tried by a kangaroo court, imprisoned by judicial fiat, and I am supposed to ask his forgiveness?
Atheism is a sin against God's ego, nothing more. Adam's sin is not mine. For my sins against my fellow man, I will ask their forgiveness and accept their punishment. There is nothing left for God. |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:53 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:55 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:59 pm
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:45 pm
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:09 pm
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Agent X Hero -xXGodslayer_RaiXx- Agent X Hero Yeah I was interested in the Golden Compass when I first heard about it, but my dad already knew the truth about it and told me. Ever since, I've been against it and trying to keep my friend from falling for it. But here's the kicker: The public openly supports this sort of stuff, but not the word of God. Why? In America there is a thing called Speration of Church and State. You do know what that is I hope. Also there are people of many faiths in this country and in many others. People who do speak the word of God are merely misinterpreting his words and making it sound like God's children are nothing more than hypocrites and that they spread hatred. This is because the people who do spread God's will do end up hurting those of other religions and saying that they're going to hell etc. We live in a country where there is a thing called Freedom of Religion we must respect those of different religions if we don't then how do you think they will respect us. This is a lesson we all learned in grade school : Treat others as you would want to be treated. Hopefully that answered your question. That is entirely beside the point. They can support other religions, but ban Christianity from most things? I know a lot of people tend to give Christianity a bad name, but that's not the majority of them. True Christians try to spread God's love without hurting others, but people who are against Christians are aloud to openly speak against it and make us feel like trash? Where is that fair?
I hate to be the one to point this out but "True Christians" are few and far between
The point is that people try and not that they get everything "right"
I see what your saying about the massive ban of nearly everything Christian, however, you are imagining such things as you see them and not how others see them
can I have one day my nose isn't smashed into some random bible page
just one day is all I ask
I think I'll end on that note and leave out any talk of fairness or hurting others |
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:05 pm
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:05 pm
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:26 pm
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