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divineseraph

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:57 pm
SilentNinjaFox
As a note on the generational curseing thing, yes God said he will punish for a 100 generations for the sins of their fathers but that he would bless to a thousand generations when someone is obedient.


So say you have a holy grandfather, but your dad is a dickwad. Curse for 50 years, maybe, for decent history? or maybe only 750 years of good fortune.

And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:36 pm
*responds to original subject of topic* We can't just ban a movie because it conveys anti-Christian messages. That's what they want, for us to get upset about it.

I say, let the people choose for themselves. Only when ones beliefs have been tested does one finally begin to stand strong in them! Just look at C.S. Lewis. He once turned away from God and became an atheist but he later became one of the greatest Christian writers of all time!

(Also, guys 'n' gals, the cursing won't help you win the debate. And, it's... well... un-Christian.)  

kuntrykid


lordstar

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:55 pm
divineseraph
SilentNinjaFox
As a note on the generational curseing thing, yes God said he will punish for a 100 generations for the sins of their fathers but that he would bless to a thousand generations when someone is obedient.


So say you have a holy grandfather, but your dad is a dickwad. Curse for 50 years, maybe, for decent history? or maybe only 750 years of good fortune.

And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


Now that is good critical thinking
I agree with you on this one my friend  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:53 pm
divineseraph
SilentNinjaFox
As a note on the generational curseing thing, yes God said he will punish for a 100 generations for the sins of their fathers but that he would bless to a thousand generations when someone is obedient.


So say you have a holy grandfather, but your dad is a dickwad. Curse for 50 years, maybe, for decent history? or maybe only 750 years of good fortune.

And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


generational curses arent from God, yes the punnishmen for sin is death, but that is why Christ died SO WE DONT HAVE TO. the CURSES are from satan, who was once an angel, the second of all of heaven, til he got proud, and tried to overthrow God. it is he, not God who corrupts, and he not God who curses those under his power. one of my family generational curses is alcoholism, yet my sister and i do not drink- because of GOD PROTECTING US, I HAVE NEVER HAD THE WILL TO DRINK AND MY SISTER LEARNED QUICKLLY THAT DRUNK= NO FUN. i didnt mean to type that in all caps, but its to much to re type.would an evil being send his own son to die for all of the wretches on earth and yet to come to the earth?  

promised_child


divineseraph

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:00 am
promised_child
divineseraph
SilentNinjaFox
As a note on the generational curseing thing, yes God said he will punish for a 100 generations for the sins of their fathers but that he would bless to a thousand generations when someone is obedient.


So say you have a holy grandfather, but your dad is a dickwad. Curse for 50 years, maybe, for decent history? or maybe only 750 years of good fortune.

And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


generational curses arent from God, yes the punnishmen for sin is death, but that is why Christ died SO WE DONT HAVE TO. the CURSES are from satan, who was once an angel, the second of all of heaven, til he got proud, and tried to overthrow God. it is he, not God who corrupts, and he not God who curses those under his power. one of my family generational curses is alcoholism, yet my sister and i do not drink- because of GOD PROTECTING US, I HAVE NEVER HAD THE WILL TO DRINK AND MY SISTER LEARNED QUICKLLY THAT DRUNK= NO FUN. i didnt mean to type that in all caps, but its to much to re type.would an evil being send his own son to die for all of the wretches on earth and yet to come to the earth?


Wasn't satan not evil until AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve? And wasn't that where the curse thing started? And then later, satan became evil, angels fell, banged some humans, and God wiped out everyone save a handful on a boat?  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:34 pm
promised_child
divineseraph
SilentNinjaFox
As a note on the generational curseing thing, yes God said he will punish for a 100 generations for the sins of their fathers but that he would bless to a thousand generations when someone is obedient.


So say you have a holy grandfather, but your dad is a dickwad. Curse for 50 years, maybe, for decent history? or maybe only 750 years of good fortune.

And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


generational curses arent from God, yes the punnishmen for sin is death, but that is why Christ died SO WE DONT HAVE TO. the CURSES are from satan, who was once an angel, the second of all of heaven, til he got proud, and tried to overthrow God. it is he, not God who corrupts, and he not God who curses those under his power. one of my family generational curses is alcoholism, yet my sister and i do not drink- because of GOD PROTECTING US, I HAVE NEVER HAD THE WILL TO DRINK AND MY SISTER LEARNED QUICKLLY THAT DRUNK= NO FUN. i didnt mean to type that in all caps, but its to much to re type.would an evil being send his own son to die for all of the wretches on earth and yet to come to the earth?


what on earth has goten into you?  

lordstar


JJ-Freak

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:33 am
Quote:
I figured you would say you didn't care
not the point however
by answering the question I can look at how your mind works
it lets me get to know you better
so just answer

now back to our conversation
"just because someone imagines that the road is filled with colored marshmallows, doesn't mean that when they walk in the middle of the road the cars won't smack into them." You might think so, however, they might think differently. In their mind there was no car...maybe a moose...but no car. The mind really is that powerful, however, a really separate from your own is really irrelevant. You are the center of your own reality. What you see is only your reality reacting with what you think is real.

I do not believe in any Absolute
so think of my ramblings more as a string of "if then" statements


Look at how my mind works from what I say, not what you make me answer. Here is how my mind works, I overanalyze. I tryuly don't care but if I was made to answer, I would turn it over in my head for a while. Because answers have a number of meanings and as I don't know who you are, I don't know which you will believe. If I say you do like me I could sound like a naive child or simply like I'm answering. If I say no I could sound pessimistic or like I'm simply answering the question. The problem is I know people reading this will think, "what the heck? It's a question you idiot, just answer." But I can't. So there you go. That is how my mind works. I overanalyze everything and yet I never predict what actually will happen. But if I had to, the way my mind works, I would say neither. You don't know me yet so you can't really tell. But, as you know, that's my point of view, not yours.

But, what I am saying, is that they will be injured just the same. They see the giant marshmellow, and heck, maybe they even feel as though they have been hit by a giant marshmellow, but they will still have broken bones and such like that. And the problem is, like I said earlier. We only have one world. If we each have our own world where we are the center, then the actual world, the one we all share, who is the center of that? Because it is obvious that in a world of our own, well it isn't this one, that's for sure. Does that mean the world we share is fake? But if that is it, then how are we connected? Whose world is the real world? Is there a real world, or are there only fake ones? If there are only fake ones, then how is it possible to make fake without real?

Do you see this? I read in a book once that you should never go to the "Land of If Only". It is a complex place that you can't escape once you get settled. It never ends. What only matters is 'what is'.

Quote:
I'm not offended, just trying to make a point. People in general have a bad habit of phrasing faith statements as facts; all I'm asking is that they qualify them with the occasional 'It is my belief that...' Carry on.


The problem is, when you are fighting your stance, if you believe in it, you fight for it. and to me, I don't just believe in God, He is in me. When someone says to me, there is no God, I don't explain how that statement offends me. yes, it does, and you are right, I would rather people say I believe there is no God. Yet, I simply say, that is your belief. Once again I don't mean to offend, but I don't want to back down and lessen my conviction so someone can feel comfortable. I'm not expecting anyone to feel comfortable in a debate. I'm really sorry, because I know I sound incredibly mean, but that's the problem. It is clearly known that Chrstians think atheists and all religiongs such as that are living wrong just as they think we are living wrong, though we butter it up. But the fact is I don't just believe it. I'm sorry. I'll try to say "I believe that..." more, but I hope you realize I don't just believe. (Once again, I probably just totally overanalyzed that. Pleaze just tell me if I did. I can take it.)

Quote:
Wasn't satan not evil until AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve? And wasn't that where the curse thing started? And then later, satan became evil, angels fell, banged some humans, and God wiped out everyone save a handful on a boat?


As for this thing, no. Satan was evil long before Adam and Eve. He attempted to rule heaven and when he failed he went to live on earth after being kicked out. Then he tricks Eve because he, once again, has a plan to rule. He is a pretty wily creature.  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:33 am
lordstar
divineseraph
And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


Now that is good critical thinking
I agree with you on this one my friend


neutral Really? Okay, so you have more righteous anger about someone being punished for what their father did than you do about people who suffer seemingly without reason? Alright, I'll bite.

You're looking at it wrong. First of all, according to Christianity, the physical life is not the ultimate reality. So anything we suffer here is comparatively inconsequential. Second, if you knew a dad, what would be the best way to deter him from wrongdoing?
A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."

So, to sum up:

When God punishes generations for one person's wrongdoing, he's not really hurting anyone permanently, because the spirit is more important than the body, and he's conveying a set of consequences that extend beyond the self.

~Gilwen

PS It's also dangerous to think that it is our belief that God punishes EVERYONE by going after their family or their health. Read the book of Job, because I don't feel like explaining it here.


PPS I have to get this off my chest: Saying God is evil is the most ridiculous assertion. If God doesn't exist, fine. But God, defined as the supremely powerful moral and holy being, cannot by definition be evil, even if you disagree with his methods. If he exists, and is who Christians believe him to be, he gets a free pass for life, regardless of what you think. So I think "God is evil" in this case would be more accurately stated as "I don't understand why God did that. Waaaaah!" dramallama  

Gilwen
Crew


divineseraph

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:30 pm
No, I understand why you would deem an entire family to doom for the acts of people related only by blood, not actions or mind. You would do so to cause fear. You would do so to hurt. you would do so for evil. Judging people based on acts they did not commit is injustice. So perhaps God may not be evil, neccesarily, but injust if it is true.  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:07 pm
divineseraph
No, I understand why you would deem an entire family to doom for the acts of people related only by blood, not actions or mind. You would do so to cause fear. You would do so to hurt. you would do so for evil. Judging people based on acts they did not commit is injustice. So perhaps God may not be evil, neccesarily, but injust if it is true.


Again, to admit that God as defined in the Bible (a supremely just and holy being) is unjust is nonsensical. (Also, read my post above. Harming someone physically isn't "doom," according to the Bible's view of the mortal versus the eternal.)

It would make more sense to say either that God doesn't exist, God isn't like he's portrayed in the Bible, or to say that your (admittedly inferior) ideas of justice differ from God's idea of justice. Pick one. But to use the Bible (and assume its assertions are true) to make some point about how God is presumably evil or cruel is silly.

Personally, I would prefer a God who may cause some harm to the body but promises to save the eternal soul than one who preserves the body and ignores the soul.

~Gilwen  

Gilwen
Crew


lordstar

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:41 pm
Gilwen
lordstar
divineseraph
And on the basic level, how can I be punished for something my father did? I am not my father. I am not Adam nor Eve. If God does punish those who are related to a sinner, then God must be evil.


Now that is good critical thinking
I agree with you on this one my friend


neutral Really? Okay, so you have more righteous anger about someone being punished for what their father did than you do about people who suffer seemingly without reason? Alright, I'll bite.


wait...what? where did you get the idea I care less about people who suffer without reason?
Gilwen

You're looking at it wrong. First of all, according to Christianity, the physical life is not the ultimate reality. So anything we suffer here is comparatively inconsequential. Second, if you knew a dad, what would be the best way to deter him from wrongdoing?


It is suffering, it still hurts, and that’s enough for me. It doesn’t have to be the ultimate reality to hurt. People all over the world dedicate their lives to helping others through the day-to-day pains life tosses in their laps. You're not saying their work is meaningless are you?
Gilwen

A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."


You have a good point here
It is the ultimate threat in so many ways
But to fallow through with it
A god like that is not worthy of my praise
Gilwen

So, to sum up:

When God punishes generations for one person's wrongdoing, he's not really hurting anyone permanently, because the spirit is more important than the body, and he's conveying a set of consequences that extend beyond the self.


Still, it doesn't justify punishing people for crimes they did not commit
Gilwen

~Gilwen

PS It's also dangerous to think that it is our belief that God punishes EVERYONE by going after their family or their health. Read the book of Job, because I don't feel like explaining it here.


PPS I have to get this off my chest: Saying God is evil is the most ridiculous assertion. If God doesn't exist, fine. But God, defined as the supremely powerful moral and holy being, cannot by definition be evil,


unless god truly isn't a supremely moral and holy being (I think that point is at the heat of the "god is evil" view) don't you think your letting your emotions get the better of you...not that I myself haven’t done the same
Gilwen

even if you disagree with his methods. If he exists, and is who Christians believe him to be, he gets a free pass for life, regardless of what you think. So I think "God is evil" in this case would be more accurately stated as "I don't understand why God did that. Waaaaah!" dramallama


If he exists
and
If he is who Christians believe him to be

those are some big if's

I think my version is by far the most accurate
"I don't understand how a kind and loving god could do something so evil." *Revolt*  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:04 am
lordstar


You're smoke screening. You don't mean "That kind of God is evil." You mean "I don't believe what the Bible says about God. The writers must be wrong, because I don't see how their idea of God could be 'good.'"

But my point is, by saying that God is evil/unkind/unjust if he's the way the Bible says he is, you, sir, are starting the "if" discussion. And what I'm saying is if God is the way the Bible says he is, he cannot be evil and unjust, and if you find him so, you are wrong.

You can argue with the Bible's portrayal of God all day, but it's logically bankrupt to assume a truth in the Bible and use it as proof that the God portrayed in the Bible is unjust. The God portrayed in the Bible is, by definition, just, holy, and benevolent, regardless of what you may feel about his methods. I don't know how to put it more clearly.

All I know is, you find "God is evil" more effective than "I don't believe in the God you preach" because it's more personally insulting to the Christian faith. But you shouldn't try to push buttons; just say what you mean: You don't believe in God, and you think the writers of the Bible got it wrong.

~Gilwen

PS I'm constantly amazed at how people who don't believe in the God of the Bible can hate him so much. wink It reminds me quite a bit of Philip Pullman's views (dingdingding! A comment that's on topic! xd )

PPS According to the Bible, none of us is a "good person," so (again, within the context of the Bible,) no one is undeserving of pain. If you're going to argue the Bible's logic, you gotta play by the rules. If you're going to assume one part (the bit about punishing generations) is true, you have to assume the rest (like the parts about God offering eternal salvation and easing our sorrows) is true as well.

PPPS (I know, my postscripts are getting ridiculous)
Quote:
Still, it doesn't justify punishing people for crimes they did not commit

Then you find yourself in a most unjust world, since the consequences of your actions extend beyond yourself. It's the natural order of things that wrongdoing affects others. It's individualistic (and probably Western) to assume that a "good" God would limit consequences to the individual, even though in life our actions clearly affect others.  

Gilwen
Crew


Gilwen
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:15 am
lordstar


It is suffering, it still hurts, and that’s enough for me. It doesn’t have to be the ultimate reality to hurt. People all over the world dedicate their lives to helping others through the day-to-day pains life tosses in their laps. You're not saying their work is meaningless are you?


Sorry, one more. Most people in the world endure far more pain than you and I. And most of them believe in a benevolent higher power. And no, I'm not saying pain is good (or neutral). I do think pain affects us profoundly, and it's a good thing to extend kindness to others and ease their burdens. But no, I do not and shall never believe that the goal of life is to ease pain and increase pleasure simply because when life ceases, everything is void.

I think this all comes to bear in this thread's topic, because the philosophies that are a natural result of humanism are a continuing theme in Philip Pullman's trilogy:

Pullman

Her last conscious thought was her disgust at life; her senses had lied to her. The world was not made of energy and delight but of foulness, betrayal, and lassitude. Living was hateful, and death was no better, and from end to end of the universe this was the first and last and only truth.


Is pain a big deal to us now? Absolutely, and I'm not deaf to the pains of my fellow humans. But I find peace and hope in the fact that the pain we suffer now will increase our reliance on God, our charity toward one another, and our awareness of the richness and and perfect joy of heaven.

~Gilwen  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:34 pm
Quote:
Quote:
Gilwen Wrote:

A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."




You have a good point here
It is the ultimate threat in so many ways
But to fallow through with it
A god like that is not worthy of my praise


If He didn't follow through with it? How much do words deter people? If your parents told you not to come home after curfew or they would ground you, but one day, you were really late and they did nothing, you'd start always coming in late after curfew.

And what about the law. If we didn't take away someone's home for not paying a debt, a lot of people wouldn't pay off their debts... Why aren't you unhappy about people's homes being taken away like that? Are you fuming at the government about them putting people on the street as much as you are fuming at God for punishing wrongs?  

JJ-Freak


promised_child

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:10 pm
JJ-Freak
Quote:
Quote:
Gilwen Wrote:

A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."




You have a good point here
It is the ultimate threat in so many ways
But to fallow through with it
A god like that is not worthy of my praise


If He didn't follow through with it? How much do words deter people? If your parents told you not to come home after curfew or they would ground you, but one day, you were really late and they did nothing, you'd start always coming in late after curfew.

And what about the law. If we didn't take away someone's home for not paying a debt, a lot of people wouldn't pay off their debts... Why aren't you unhappy about people's homes being taken away like that? Are you fuming at the government about them putting people on the street as much as you are fuming at God for punishing wrongs?


bravo  
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