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Loving Kindness: A Buddhism Guild

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Tags: buddhism, philosophy, religion, dharma, health 

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Paradox within traditional buddhist thought

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Peace Love And Skate

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:07 pm


Recently, as I posted, I've been having a hard time accepting LITERAL reincarnation, and a natural law of Karma, in the sense that it's supernatural.
The Buddha said that only truths that can be tested are real, however, I don't see how reincarnation, as in LITERAL rebirth could be proven, and even so, it hasn't, so according to Shakyamuni, we shouldnt waste our time with it. Also, Karma. We can't PROVE that karma, as a supernatural thing exists. Sure, you slap someone, they slap back. Karma in that sense makes perfect sense. As does 'rebirth' into different states of mind. However, literal interpretations of either cannot really be proven, and if they can, they haven't been, so we shouldn't waste our time with it. Whaddya think?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:45 am


Well, first I think it's important to look at the differences (in English) in the implied terms of "Reincarnation" and "Rebirth." The word that is translated into English as Reincarnation refers to the idea that every person has a soul that moves from life to life. This idea was present in Brahmanism and progressed into Hinduism (from what I understand), but Buddhism rejected it because it relies on the idea of the soul.

The word that is translated into English as Rebirth refers to the idea that everything that is caused to exist will eventually break down and go on to produce new things, based on various causes and forces. This is like the idea of all the hydrogen in the Universe after the Big Bang eventually, through the process of fusion, being transformed into all of the other elements that we know about today from oxygen to gold. It's the same stuff, but put together in many different ways to produce entirely different substances.

I'm not familiar with the philosophical or logical arguments for reincarnation within Hinduism, so I cannot comment on it. I know that Buddhism rejects the idea that there is a fixed, findable self or soul. And so the idea that any kind of soul exists, much less that it moves from body to body, is outright rejected.

Rather, Buddhism proposes rebirth. There is no single thing that moves from life to life. There is, instead, a continuous flow, a never-ending change that is like a river.

Dharmakirti, a Buddhist philosopher, made an argument (incidentally not for rebirth, but it worked out that way) that for something to exist as it exists, there must have been a previous instance of that thing existing in some other way so that it could, in the next instance become what we see. For example, for a tree to be a tree today there must have been a previous instance of it having been a tree yesterday.

It could be that the tree today is a little different (bigger, with more or less branches or leaves), but generally there is a previous cause for there being a tree today. There cannot be a tree yesterday, and then today there be a giant panda with a fancy hat.

Another example is the "water cycle" in nature. For there to be certain lakes, there needs to be rain. For there to be rain there has to be some previous source of water which has, because of the Sun, evaporated to produce clouds. There is always a previous cause that has led to the next logical cause. Water vapor does not form into clouds only to deliver some parcels for UPS - clouds produce rain rather than mail (at least until science progress to that point). xd

So now look at your consciousness. For it to be there, there must have been a preceeding instance of consciousness. It doesn't make sense for the brain to create consciousness because that would be like a putting rice into your microwave and having a small dog come out.

It sometimes helps to think about the person you were five years ago. Where is that person now? Are they hiding in the bathroom? Where did you come from? Did you arise out of a hole in the ground this morning? No, of course not. This is what is meant by rebirth. The present state of consciousness that you have is because there is a preceeding cause of your consciousness. And the consciousness you have right now will cause the next instance of consciousness.

Now at the moment of death, that consciousness will no longer have a fully functional brain (a physical body) to be attached to. That does not mean that your consciousness ceases to exist. We know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. So what happens to your consciousness? Well, let's look at what happens to your body first.

Your body decays. The instance of there being a body leads to another instance of there being a body with subtle changes with the cessation of cellular activity. These changes progress logically until the body has broken down into more simple elements and are diffused. Since everything that is in your body is composed of things that were already present on the Earth, it is logical for your body to eventually return to a similar state. But, of course, the elements that make up your body will not remain in that state. You may go on to provide nourishment for trees or fauna.

The point is that there is a logical progression of change that reflects a phenomenon's previous instance. So then we look to consciousness again. Consciousness is not matter, and so it will not break down in precisely the same way, but it cannot remain the same either. But, like the body, we can say with some logical confidence that your consciousness will go on to continue to exist as consciousness (just like your body - which is matter - going on to exist as matter).

Tenzin Chodron
Crew


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:39 pm


Ummm...to attempt to provide a more condensed version of what Nirvahara said...

When you attempt to take a direct, literal reading of such things in Buddhism, you have to take a literal reading of their statements. For example, the statement that
"Rebirth is the consistent dissolution of consciousness into Suchness, maintaining the nondualism of all things"
becomes, under literal readings,
"Rebirth is the concept that nothing is static, and there is no clean line between a system and its environment."

Of course the second statement is always true. Regardless of the fact that science has proven it again and again, close examination of any subject will reveal this to be true. The former statement, as Buddhist philosophers will confirm, extends first from an abstraction of the second statement to a metaphysical realm...considering what happens when you apply the statement to a more philosophical or ethical situation. In time, you'll learn to fully abstract the former statement, and find it to be *literally* true as well. It will be true in every situation, physical or metaphysical.

The same method can be applied to karma. The statement
"It is inherent in nature that the attitude with which actions are performed create environmental effects" becomes
"The ethical attitude behind actions are real, even if the action itself is the same."

This is harder to verify in the "real" world. But the simplest effect to observe is the one such a difference has an *you*. You yourself will feel different depending on what attitude you carry out your actions with, and is something which must be analyzed very carefully. By applying the same process of metaphysical extension, and eventually abstraction, you will see that this, too, is ultimately and universally true.

Maybe that wasn't as compressed as I wanted it to be. My point is that you need to verify these statements in a single situation, then expand and abstract and expand and abstract until you find for yourself that it is universally true. Most people call this latter process "meditation".
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:50 pm


Thanks. I appreciate the input. smile

Peace Love And Skate

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Loving Kindness: A Buddhism Guild

 
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