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 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:03 pm
Talon-chan La Veuve Zin Some pro-choicers say they're glad their mother had a choice, but frankly, I'm glad my mom never would have dreamed of killing me, even before I was born. My mom had a choice, she chose to have sex without birth control twice and as a result she had me and my sister. (well, maybe she tried more than once but I'd rather not think about that...) gonk If my mother hadn't had an abortion... I wouldn't have been born. She got pregnant soon after she and my father married. She had an abortion. A few years later she planned to have my older brother. A month after he was born she got pregnant again, with me. It was very much so an "oops." Had she already had two children (ie not aborted the first oops) she would have aborted me. She could not afford three children, and she frankly didn't want three children (hence why she had her tubes tied after I was born). I'm glad my mother had a choice, because it means she truly wanted me and was not compelled to have me against her will. She had me because she wanted me... and that means the world to me. If she had been forced to have me against her will I'd feel horrible. I would always wonder if she truly loved me or if deep down she resented me because I was an accident and she had no way of being rid of me. I'd worry that, as has happened to Seleana, my mother would make it well known to me that I was unwanted and that she resented having had me or for being talked out of aborting me if ever I disappointed her. Further it would probably haunt me that being forced to have me against her will... having her emotional and physical well being shattered due to the trauma of a mandatory pregnancy, was a leading factor in her suicide. At least I can rest assured that that wasn't the case (had she been compelled to have me against her will... I'd probably be haunted for life thinking that she killed herself because I was the biggest thing that ruined her life). Being happy that she was forced into having me against her will would be like saying I'm happy my father is forced to pay taxes so I can continue to live in our house. It baffles me. Maybe she wouldn't have had you, but if she hadn't had an abortion, she would have had someone else, who now will never be had. And, as ya'll are so gleeful to say, you wouldn't know the difference, because, in this scenario especially, you wouldn't have even been conceived. And even in today's world, with abortion available, kids still tend to wonder if they are a reason if/when their parents commit suicide. You are an exception in that case, not the rule, as far as I can tell. Also, I would think that the "I wish I had aborted you" line is less likely to be used if abortion is illegal, considering that parents wouldn't have the option of aborting their children, so it wouldn't be thought of as a "solution." Lastly, no offense, but your mother didn't want you. You already said that you were an "accident," so she chose to keep you, but that, as I see it, is more like, "Well, I guess now is as good a time as any to have that second kid I was planning on." then it is, "Whee! Talon-chan's coming!" And even if you weren't an accident, she would have wanted a baby, not you specifically. To me, it seems so cold to say, "Well, I didn't want this baby, but I do want that baby," especially when it's based off of nothing more then the current time of her life. She didn't choose you because you were beautiful, or intelligent, or sweet, or even a boy or girl. Nor did she refuse your aborted sibling because he was ugly, or imperfect, or an idiot, or annoying. She picked one or the other based on whether she felt like having a kid at that moment or not. She did choose to keep you, yes, but she could have chosen otherwise, and I just don't get how that can possibly not be terrifying.
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Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:50 pm
Quote: You are an exception in that case, not the rule, as far as I can tell. No, I wasn't an exception to that. I wondered if I was a cause for about a year or so afterwards (give or take a few months), while maybe once or twice seriously wondering about it in the years to follow. Having read her suicide note, and knowing the circumstances surrouding her death, I managed to get over it relatively quickly (well quickly considering it was the death of a parent). I tend to mourn quickly and move on quickly, that I think would be the only exception to the general case I would be. Quote: Also, I would think that the "I wish I had aborted you" line is less likely to be used if abortion is illegal, considering that parents wouldn't have the option of aborting their children, so it wouldn't be thought of as a "solution." But I think if abortions were illegal the parents insult would be even worse. Saying "I wish I would have aborted you" is saying "you are such a pain in the a** I wonder why I ever wanted kids to begin with." If illegal they would then say "If I could have aborted you, I would have." I think that is a far worse insult because it means "I never wanted you to begin with." But that's just a personal thing ^_^;; Quote: Lastly, no offense, but your mother didn't want you. You already said that you were an "accident," so she chose to keep you, but that, as I see it, is more like, "Well, I guess now is as good a time as any to have that second kid I was planning on." then it is, "Whee! Talon-chan's coming!" And even if you weren't an accident, she would have wanted a baby, not you specifically She wanted me, just not me specifically. You could say that of my brother as well. She wanted a child at that particular time, so she got pregnant. But she wanted any one of the millions of possible children that could have been (millions of sperm in that one ejaculation), not specifically my brother. So yeah, I was an accident and in that sense I was unwanted in a specific sense... but I'd definately argue against the notion that I was unwanted entirely ^_^;; Quote: To me, it seems so cold to say, "Well, I didn't want this baby, but I do want that baby," especially when it's based off of nothing more then the current time of her life. She didn't choose you because you were beautiful, or intelligent, or sweet, or even a boy or girl. Nor did she refuse your aborted sibling because he was ugly, or imperfect, or an idiot, or annoying. She picked one or the other based on whether she felt like having a kid at that moment or not. Agreed. That is cruel. Of course, to me (as I'm sure you know) a fetus is not the quivalent of a baby u.u;; But from your point of view, if I believed one was, I'd definately agree that timing would be a cruel method to determine if one wants a child from the point of view of the baby (even though I'd fully support it otherwise)... I mean I may want to adopt a child one day, and saying I want one next year, but not right now, would be just as cruel as not wanting to be pregnant one month but pregnant another u.u;;; Again that's just personal opinion. Quote: She did choose to keep you, yes, but she could have chosen otherwise, and I just don't get how that can possibly not be terrifying. I suppose it would be terrifying at the time, but since I'm born now and able to think on it there isn't much to be afraid of a-la the "if I had been aborted I wouldn't have cared because I would have gone from one state of unconsciousness into another" thing. If I were somehow able to be aware while in the womb, knowing that I was an accident that had the potential to be aborted because of it, I'd be terrified at that point in time. Since I'm already born and the risk is long since over... I have nothing to be afraid of now that I am able to be afraid. I guess I see it as being along the lines of "what if my mother had had a car accident" or "what if my mother had a miscarriage?" These things were also possible then, and the way I see it... if I should be terrified of the unfullfilled chance of my mother having aborted me, I should be equally terrified of my mother having died in a car accident, miscarrying me, or of my grandmother having not met my grandfather, or any other possible thing that could have happened to lead to my non-existence. Since things didn't happen that way, there's nothing to feel anxiety over right now u.u;;
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:32 pm
Talon-chan I'm glad my mother had a choice, because it means she truly wanted me and was not compelled to have me against her will. I've heard this argument before. Let's say I have a compulsion to torture animals, but doing so is illegal. Thus the law prevents me from doing something I want to do. But most people don't need a law against torturing animals to keep them from doing so. Hell, given the chance to get away with it, many people wouldn't even steal. It's not a law preventing them from doing so, it's their conscience and their set of ethics. Likewise, my mom didn't not have an abortion because she was forced to stay pregnant, she did so because to her, having an abortion would be as repugnant as smothering me in my crib. You might call me just another wanted child, because my mom did plan to have children, but the fact that she wouldn't have aborted me no matter what means she values the lives of her children more than her own convenience. As for "no way of being rid" of you, you've forgotten adoption and safe havens. Pregnancy is never "mandatory" unless you're raped or otherwise coerced into sex. Accuse me of being a reactionary Christian misogynist if you want, but if I wanted to be absolutely sure I'd never die in a bungee jumping accident, I'd never go bungee jumping. If getting pregnant would traumatize me to the point of suicide, I'd never have vaginal intercourse with a man. No one complains about their right to bungee jump without the risk of dying, and as a female non-virgin, I can tell you that having a d**k in you without the risk of getting pregnant isn't the most important right I have. And um...isn't there a guild rule about no pro-choice arguments?
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:02 pm
Talon-chan Quote: Also, I would think that the "I wish I had aborted you" line is less likely to be used if abortion is illegal, considering that parents wouldn't have the option of aborting their children, so it wouldn't be thought of as a "solution." But I think if abortions were illegal the parents insult would be even worse. Saying "I wish I would have aborted you" is saying "you are such a pain in the a** I wonder why I ever wanted kids to begin with." If illegal they would then say "If I could have aborted you, I would have." I think that is a far worse insult because it means "I never wanted you to begin with." But that's just a personal thing ^_^;; No, "I wish I had aborted you" sounds much worse to my ears then, "I don't know why I ever wanted kids." The second one says, "Kids are troublesome. What was I thinking?" The first one says, "You are so troublesome, I wish I could/had kill(ed) you." Especially to a child's ears. Children, who, when a fetus is described to them, recognize it as a human life. To a kid, who "doesn't fully understand" and sees their fetus self as still them, just an earlier, pretty much harmless, defenseless version. Quote: Quote: Lastly, no offense, but your mother didn't want you. You already said that you were an "accident," so she chose to keep you, but that, as I see it, is more like, "Well, I guess now is as good a time as any to have that second kid I was planning on." then it is, "Whee! Talon-chan's coming!" And even if you weren't an accident, she would have wanted a baby, not you specifically She wanted me, just not me specifically. You could say that of my brother as well. She wanted a child at that particular time, so she got pregnant. But she wanted any one of the millions of possible children that could have been (millions of sperm in that one ejaculation), not specifically my brother. So yeah, I was an accident and in that sense I was unwanted in a specific sense... but I'd definately argue against the notion that I was unwanted entirely ^_^;; Well, it's just that, again no offense, but it's a very romantic notion that, "I was wanted, my mother wanted me!" when in reality she would have been just as fine with probably most of the other million as well. You know? Like, if you win a contest for a day with your favorite moviestar, or singer, or whatever. You think, "Oh my God, this is awesome, I'm going to get to meet !" And you feel all special. But you aren't really special. You got picked randomly. You're lucky. But you're not special.
Quote: Quote: To me, it seems so cold to say, "Well, I didn't want this baby, but I do want that baby," especially when it's based off of nothing more then the current time of her life. She didn't choose you because you were beautiful, or intelligent, or sweet, or even a boy or girl. Nor did she refuse your aborted sibling because he was ugly, or imperfect, or an idiot, or annoying. She picked one or the other based on whether she felt like having a kid at that moment or not. Agreed. That is cruel. Of course, to me (as I'm sure you know) a fetus is not the quivalent of a baby u.u;; But from your point of view, if I believed one was, I'd definately agree that timing would be a cruel method to determine if one wants a child from the point of view of the baby (even though I'd fully support it otherwise)... I mean I may want to adopt a child one day, and saying I want one next year, but not right now, would be just as cruel as not wanting to be pregnant one month but pregnant another u.u;;; Again that's just personal opinion.
And even from ya'll's point of view, I don't quite understand. Yeah, it may not be equivalent to a born child, okay. But it's still going, "I want this one, I don't want that one." For obvious reasons, ya'll don't attach emotion to fetuses. Except sometimes. So, if you are going to have an abortion, or you aren't sure yet, it's not worth anything. But if you decide that you are going to have it, no matter what stage in the pregnancy, it gains instant value as a living thing. So, your aborted sibling was worthless, just because she didn't want him/her. But you were worth everything in the world the moment she decided to keep you. And, as romantic as the idea is that you were worth so much to her is, I can't help but think, "What about him/her? So you're worth everything, at the cost of his/her chance at life?"
And by the way, we've used dictionaries; The fetus is a baby. There's no, "We don't equate it to a baby," it -is- a baby. Just not a born baby.
Quote: Quote: She did choose to keep you, yes, but she could have chosen otherwise, and I just don't get how that can possibly not be terrifying. I suppose it would be terrifying at the time, but since I'm born now and able to think on it there isn't much to be afraid of a-la the "if I had been aborted I wouldn't have cared because I would have gone from one state of unconsciousness into another" thing. If I were somehow able to be aware while in the womb, knowing that I was an accident that had the potential to be aborted because of it, I'd be terrified at that point in time. Since I'm already born and the risk is long since over... I have nothing to be afraid of now that I am able to be afraid. I guess I see it as being along the lines of "what if my mother had had a car accident" or "what if my mother had a miscarriage?" These things were also possible then, and the way I see it... if I should be terrified of the unfullfilled chance of my mother having aborted me, I should be equally terrified of my mother having died in a car accident, miscarrying me, or of my grandmother having not met my grandfather, or any other possible thing that could have happened to lead to my non-existence. Since things didn't happen that way, there's nothing to feel anxiety over right now u.u;;
It's less, "What if that had happened," and more, "What else could someone willing to do that be capable of?" Obviously, that's differing opinion. I just... I don't understand, really. u.u;; You've told us that she -did- have an abortion before you, and she had no problem with it. And you believe that that abortion saved your life. Which implies that you are grateful that you weren't aborted. But you have no problem with the fact that your sibling was, and in fact are grateful because it meant that you were born. But then, if s/he wasn't aborted, you never would have existed, which means that there was no possibility at all of you suffering any sort of pain or physical or psychological damage, which your sibling did, or might have, in his/her abortion. Which, no offense, sounds unimaginably... Primitive.
Like, "The great gods have allowed me to live through this random drawing of lots. I am happy for the death of my brother, for it has allowed me to live." It's like, it's slightly selfish, but I can't really fully blame you, because it's in a survival-istic sort of way, but I don't see how you can rationalize it as intelligent to say that, "I'm glad that my sibling died, because it means that I live." Like the ancient Norse making a sacrifice to the fertility gods to keep their crops alive; Those deaths, willing or not, are good and in fact necessary for the good of the whole. Even though the crops would have grown without blood sacrifice.
I'm sorry, I just can't get my head around the idea, and that's unusual for me. ^_^;;
And Veuve; I think there's a rule against being completely unaccepting and rude towards us, but since Pro-Choicers are let in, obviously we don't mind them giving there opinions.
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:22 pm
La Veuve Zin Talon-chan I'm glad my mother had a choice, because it means she truly wanted me and was not compelled to have me against her will. And um...isn't there a guild rule about no pro-choice arguments? ^_^;; People asked, so I discussed. If anyone thinks I've gone beyond merely discussing hypotheticals and such and gotten into the realm of debating pro-choice... I'll gladly stop. I'm not here to debate, because I know it is against the rules. Quote: Like, if you win a contest for a day with your favorite moviestar, or singer, or whatever. You think, "Oh my God, this is awesome, I'm going to get to meet !" And you feel all special. But you aren't really special. You got picked randomly. You're lucky. But you're not special. Which is exactly what I was going for. My mother having had me as an accident and choosing to keep me makes me no more or less special than my brother who could have been one of a million different possible children. So the fact that she didn't want me in particular, just whichever child was in her womb at the time doesn't make me feel any less "wanted." I'm not entirely sure where we disagree on this XD. I say I was "wanted" in the sense that my mother wanted a child at that point in time and chose to keep it. I, in particular, was not wanted, just whatever child happened to be concieved that month. If I (particular) was not specifically wanted that's ok with me, because neither was my planned brother, or any child born ever (I mean even you weren't specifically wanted unless you were done via IVF and you were hand picked). I'm not even sure where I'm going with this at the moment XD forgive me if I'm rambling. Quote: And even from ya'll's point of view, I don't quite understand. Yeah, it may not be equivalent to a born child, okay. But it's still going, "I want this one, I don't want that one." For obvious reasons, ya'll don't attach emotion to fetuses. Except sometimes. So, if you are going to have an abortion, or you aren't sure yet, it's not worth anything. But if you decide that you are going to have it, no matter what stage in the pregnancy, it gains instant value as a living thing. So, your aborted sibling was worthless, just because she didn't want him/her. But you were worth everything in the world the moment she decided to keep you. And, as romantic as the idea is that you were worth so much to her is, I can't help but think, "What about him/her? So you're worth everything, at the cost of his/her chance at life?" Essentially... Yes. Since we view the fetus as the equivalent of a lump of flesh... an unwanted lump of flesh is worthless... a wanted lump of flesh has value only because the mother wants it. I suppose an example (though not at all fitting) would be along the lines of your hair. If you love having long hair, then it has value to you. If you want short hair, then all the hair that is cut off has no value to you. The whole of the value of the hair is contingent upon whether or not you value it. And from the view of a pro-lifer who believes a fetus is so much more than hair or a lump of flesh, I can say I understand how this seems horrific. Quote: And by the way, we've used dictionaries; The fetus is a baby. There's no, "We don't equate it to a baby," it -is- a baby. Just not a born baby. Just like "murder" isn't defined such that it includes abortion being that it is a legal term. Sometimes the dictionary is just wrong with things. I can call my S.O., my car, or my computer my "baby" but I'm fairly certain they didn't spring forth from my loins (OH THANK GOD, that would be painful sweatdrop ). Murder right now may not include the killing of a fetus because it currently isn't illegal to do so. But I'll be damned if the legality of an action would suffice for the proper definition. Three hundred years ago killing a slave was ok because they were property... but I'll be damned if it wasn't still murder to kill them. So I guess it would be better for a pro-choicer to say that they don't consider a fetus to have the same value of an infant, and that while it may be defined as a baby, they don't value it as they would a born baby. Just as a pro-lifer may not be able to say abortion *is* murder because of the definition of the word, but that they still consider the action to be equivalent in value to murder. *** As for the abortion bit. I'm not greatful my sibling died so that I may live because his death did not guarantee that I would have been born. My mother could have still aborted me. However I see it as odds: had my older sibling been born the odds are that I would have been aborted. Had I been aborted I wouldn't have cared. I wouldn't have felt it. I would have (as we often say) gone from one state of unconscious unawareness to another. Even though you don't see it this way (or I assume you don't) the fact my mother aborted increased the odds of my having been born. Had world war 2 not occurred my grandparents would not have met... am I happy world war 2 occurred? No. But I can say I owe my existence to it having happened. While I may or may not feel one way or another about my mother's abortion (in all honesty I would not have minded having an older sibling, and I cannot say I feel joy at his/her being aborted)... the fact it happened is something I can say I owe my own existence to. I owe my existence to my mother's old friend who introduced my parents to eachother. I owe my existence to a man who saved my father's life when he fell through a pier and nearly drowned while fighting a huge fire three or so years before I was born. I owe my existence to a lot of things that increased the odds of my existence happening. One of those events happens to have been my mother's abortion.
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:09 pm
Talon-chan Quote: Like, if you win a contest for a day with your favorite moviestar, or singer, or whatever. You think, "Oh my God, this is awesome, I'm going to get to meet !" And you feel all special. But you aren't really special. You got picked randomly. You're lucky. But you're not special. Which is exactly what I was going for. My mother having had me as an accident and choosing to keep me makes me no more or less special than my brother who could have been one of a million different possible children. So the fact that she didn't want me in particular, just whichever child was in her womb at the time doesn't make me feel any less "wanted." I'm not entirely sure where we disagree on this XD. I say I was "wanted" in the sense that my mother wanted a child at that point in time and chose to keep it. I, in particular, was not wanted, just whatever child happened to be concieved that month. If I (particular) was not specifically wanted that's ok with me, because neither was my planned brother, or any child born ever (I mean even you weren't specifically wanted unless you were done via IVF and you were hand picked). I'm not even sure where I'm going with this at the moment XD forgive me if I'm rambling. Oh, what I was getting at is that you feel that I don't quite understand how you can say in what I took to be a rather happy/proud way that the death of your sibling through abortion increased your chances of being born. Quote: Essentially... Yes. Since we view the fetus as the equivalent of a lump of flesh... an unwanted lump of flesh is worthless... a wanted lump of flesh has value only because the mother wants it. I suppose an example (though not at all fitting) would be along the lines of your hair. If you love having long hair, then it has value to you. If you want short hair, then all the hair that is cut off has no value to you. The whole of the value of the hair is contingent upon whether or not you value it. And from the view of a pro-lifer who believes a fetus is so much more than hair or a lump of flesh, I can say I understand how this seems horrific. And see, I can kind of understand that, but I kind of can't. A fetus is obviously not a lump of flesh or hair. It has organs of it's own. Whether you consider it to be equal in value to a born human or not, it is obviously human, not just a piece of human. I understand that since you don't believe that a fetus has inherit value, the only value it has is what other people give it. I just don't understand how you can look yourself in the face and say, "This one is worth the same amount as a born child, because I want it. But this other one isn't because I don't want it." Quote: Just like "murder" isn't defined such that it includes abortion being that it is a legal term. Sometimes the dictionary is just wrong with things. I can call my S.O., my car, or my computer my "baby" but I'm fairly certain they didn't spring forth from my loins (OH THANK GOD, that would be painful sweatdrop ). Murder right now may not include the killing of a fetus because it currently isn't illegal to do so. But I'll be damned if the legality of an action would suffice for the proper definition. Three hundred years ago killing a slave was ok because they were property... but I'll be damned if it wasn't still murder to kill them. Ha, well I can see why people would think of abortion as murder, but that is not because of the meaning of the word, but rather the associations that people have created for words. My friend and I were talking about just that earlier; Words have certain meanings, and different connotations. For instance, sex is an okay word to say. But, pardon my language, ******** isn't. They mean the same thing. But '********' has connotations that people create. In fact, even though '********' means 'to have sex,' it is used in ways through slang that it is not possible (Or highly improbable) to use a form of the word "sex." Like, "******** that." Or, "******** off." Or, "******** ********." In slang, it can be used as pretty much any kind of word, and usually when using it, people don't think "sex," they just think "expletive." But it can still be used as "to have sex," as in, again, pardon me, "I'd ******** her." That was sort of long and rambling, but do you see what I mean? That is the same as using the word "baby" for your computer, car, or boyfriend, even though those aren't the dictionary definitions for the word. But that doesn't mean that the dictionary definition doesn't still apply. So whether you call your boyfriend/dog/cat/computer baby or not doesn't keep fetuses from being babies. And I'd say that the dictionary is almost never outright -wrong-, it just rarely takes into effect common, unorthadox, street usage of certain words. Quote: So I guess it would be better for a pro-choicer to say that they don't consider a fetus to have the same value of an infant, and that while it may be defined as a baby, they don't value it as they would a born baby. Just as a pro-lifer may not be able to say abortion *is* murder because of the definition of the word, but that they still consider the action to be equivalent in value to murder. Yeah. But, whether you value it as a born baby or not, it's still a baby. As you pointed out earlier, black humans weren't valued the same as white humans, but they were still humans, by definition. Quote: As for the abortion bit. I'm not greatful my sibling died so that I may live because his death did not guarantee that I would have been born. My mother could have still aborted me. However I see it as odds: had my older sibling been born the odds are that I would have been aborted. Had I been aborted I wouldn't have cared. I wouldn't have felt it. I would have (as we often say) gone from one state of unconscious unawareness to another. Even though you don't see it this way (or I assume you don't) the fact my mother aborted increased the odds of my having been born. Had world war 2 not occurred my grandparents would not have met... am I happy world war 2 occurred? No. But I can say I owe my existence to it having happened. While I may or may not feel one way or another about my mother's abortion (in all honesty I would not have minded having an older sibling, and I cannot say I feel joy at his/her being aborted)... the fact it happened is something I can say I owe my own existence to. I owe my existence to my mother's old friend who introduced my parents to eachother. I owe my existence to a man who saved my father's life when he fell through a pier and nearly drowned while fighting a huge fire three or so years before I was born. I owe my existence to a lot of things that increased the odds of my existence happening. One of those events happens to have been my mother's abortion. I understand that, the whole chances thing, and I'd say I think the same way, but the way you said it earlier, something like "I am only alive because my mother aborted my first sibling," made it sound like you owed your life to that abortion. And, pardon me for making assumptions, but if you didn't believe that the abortion played a significant part in your being born, you wouldn't have mentioned it. And I've seen you use it all the time (I think, it may have been someone else), so obviously it's something you think is a good argument. Which, if it was just one of many things that you consider to have led up to your being born, you wouldn't think that any more then you would World War II being a good thing because it led to your parent(s) birth(s) and, subsequently, your birth. And so, if you are happy you are alive, you must consider your mother aborting him to be a good thing.
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:29 pm
well, i am anti-abortion, and i think that number of abortions has raised tooooooo much. when a child is killed in an abortion, it is my understanding that they are NOT supposed to survive . . . . . .
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