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 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:31 am
In that real life story, the baby didn't reach out his hand and grab the fingers; the doctor was moving the hand and the hand clutched the doctor's finger reflexively.
Just thought I'd point that out, though it is still amazing to me how...well, how formed we are, even at 21 weeks. I don't know why, either, because it's not like it's abnormal, it's just pretty...I don't know. Can't explain. Science is a beautiful thing.
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Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:07 pm
I was only bothered by a few parts of this episode. I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. The other thing that bothered me was the surgery scene. For those who didn't see the episode, there is a scene where they are doing surgery on the fetus while it is still in the womb. During the surgery the fetus reaches out of the womb and grasps the finger of a doctor. This was obviously based on the blatant lies and propaganda surrounding a popular photo of a fetal surgery. http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/thehand.asp for the false version and the true story. It really pisses me off that they incorporated this urban legend into the show.
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:02 am
I hate that you're all further in House than I am. ;_;
Darn British TV. House is on Channel Five! It's got the worst reception EVAR. And we're on 3.4 at the moment, it's showing tonight.
I have heard about the episode, and I pretty much agree with what Aiko said. <3
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:51 am
Aiko_Kaida I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. Well, they always do that... xd As for the surgery, yeah, that was cheesy and I couldn't believe they were copying an urban legend. However: Most people find it cute when babies grab fingers. Even I think it's cute, and I don't particularly like babies. Even House apparently thought it was cute, and he doesn't like anyone. Even if the fetus wasn't actively grabbing Bruner's finger, it's still cute. Fetuses do move their hands at that age--and there's a pic somewhere where one looks like it's playing the clarinet. whee I don't like that people have attempted to use the pic as anti-abortion propaganda, but I think they're using it in the wrong way: if fetuses don't feel pain, why would they need to be anesthetized? Clearly they do at that age, and clearly defects can be corrected in utero, so why not ban late-term abortion? (Especially since, as so many claim, it's so rare...)
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:54 am
Well...was he anesthetized himself or was he anesthetized because the mother was?
At any rate, there's a big chance they can feel pain at 21 weeks...and if that's so, it's almost definite that they feel even more acutely than a born infant or a later term fetus, because the...oh dear lord, I used to know all the terms. I'm getting rusty xd Talk about lyme brain. Myelin coating? It's this sort of protective sheath around the nerves, it kind of dulls things so we can't feel as much. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. That coating hasn't developed yet, I don't think it develops until weeks 28-30.
And not all defects can be corrected in utero. It's legal to get a late term abortion for things like club foot, cleft pallet, down syndrome, etc. Then there are things that are much worse, like harlequin children. Plus, the surgery is expensive, and I think it might be more dangerous for the mother than a late term abortion is, but I'm not sure.
21 weeks, though, is legal electively in a lot of places because it's still second trimester. Then again, whether the fetus feels pain isn't a factor...it doesn't change that it's infringing on a woman's bodily domain. I think it's horrible to do something knowing it will cause pain, if it turns out that they do feel pain at 21 weeks, but it doesn't change that the personhood of the fetus isn't what legal abortion is resting on, not in the US at least. In some places, it is, but in those places abortion is pushed back anyway.
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:35 am
La Veuve Zin Aiko_Kaida I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. Well, they always do that... xd As for the surgery, yeah, that was cheesy and I couldn't believe they were copying an urban legend. However: Most people find it cute when babies grab fingers. Even I think it's cute, and I don't particularly like babies. Even House apparently thought it was cute, and he doesn't like anyone. Even if the fetus wasn't actively grabbing Bruner's finger, it's still cute. Fetuses do move their hands at that age--and there's a pic somewhere where one looks like it's playing the clarinet. whee I don't like that people have attempted to use the pic as anti-abortion propaganda, but I think they're using it in the wrong way: if fetuses don't feel pain, why would they need to be anesthetized? Clearly they do at that age, and clearly defects can be corrected in utero, so why not ban late-term abortion? (Especially since, as so many claim, it's so rare...) Well isn't the reason that late term abortions are so rare is because they are used to save the mother's life? So if we banned them...well then what? Both the mother and fetus die? I don't think that's what anyone wants... I actually found that to be a little bit creepy...I dunno, babies sticking their hands out of bloody wombs...heh, well, all surgery makes me a bit squeamish but I endured it so I could see what all hub bub was with this episode...and I think I heard the House guy say, (did he say it? I'm not sure) after the baby grabbed his finger he was all, "I forgot to tape Alien." xD I couldn't really hear him...
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:34 pm
SterileNeedles La Veuve Zin Aiko_Kaida I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. Well, they always do that... xd As for the surgery, yeah, that was cheesy and I couldn't believe they were copying an urban legend. However: Most people find it cute when babies grab fingers. Even I think it's cute, and I don't particularly like babies. Even House apparently thought it was cute, and he doesn't like anyone. Even if the fetus wasn't actively grabbing Bruner's finger, it's still cute. Fetuses do move their hands at that age--and there's a pic somewhere where one looks like it's playing the clarinet. whee I don't like that people have attempted to use the pic as anti-abortion propaganda, but I think they're using it in the wrong way: if fetuses don't feel pain, why would they need to be anesthetized? Clearly they do at that age, and clearly defects can be corrected in utero, so why not ban late-term abortion? (Especially since, as so many claim, it's so rare...) Well isn't the reason that late term abortions are so rare is because they are used to save the mother's life? So if we banned them...well then what? Both the mother and fetus die? I don't think that's what anyone wants... I actually found that to be a little bit creepy...I dunno, babies sticking their hands out of bloody wombs...heh, well, all surgery makes me a bit squeamish but I endured it so I could see what all hub bub was with this episode...and I think I heard the House guy say, (did he say it? I'm not sure) after the baby grabbed his finger he was all, "I forgot to tape Alien." xD I couldn't really hear him... I think she means for fetal deformity. That's a pretty common reason for third trimester abortions.
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:36 pm
La Veuve Zin Aiko_Kaida I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. Well, they always do that... xd As for the surgery, yeah, that was cheesy and I couldn't believe they were copying an urban legend. However: Most people find it cute when babies grab fingers. Even I think it's cute, and I don't particularly like babies. Even House apparently thought it was cute, and he doesn't like anyone. Even if the fetus wasn't actively grabbing Bruner's finger, it's still cute. Fetuses do move their hands at that age--and there's a pic somewhere where one looks like it's playing the clarinet. whee I don't like that people have attempted to use the pic as anti-abortion propaganda, but I think they're using it in the wrong way: if fetuses don't feel pain, why would they need to be anesthetized? Clearly they do at that age, and clearly defects can be corrected in utero, so why not ban late-term abortion? (Especially since, as so many claim, it's so rare...) Therapeutic late term abortions are legal because they are performed when a fetus is dead, dying, or the mother's life is at risk. And yes, a lot of late term abortion statistics do include fetuses who are already dead. It's still considered and abortion because the pregnancy is being ended through the medical procedure. Very few fetal defects can be corrected with surgery. There are a lot of conditions that can not be corrected and cause a lot of suffering once the baby is born. Harlequin syndrome is an example of something that can not be corrected and causes a lot of suffering. There are also all sorts of conditions where the mother's health is being compromised by the pregnancy and there is no way to correct it other than ending the pregnancy.
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:03 pm
Aiko_Kaida La Veuve Zin Aiko_Kaida I was fine with the woman choosing to continue her pregnancy even though it would likely lead to her death. That is her choice and her right. What did bother me is that they made house out to be a monster for thinking that the woman should end the pregnancy. Well, they always do that... xd As for the surgery, yeah, that was cheesy and I couldn't believe they were copying an urban legend. However: Most people find it cute when babies grab fingers. Even I think it's cute, and I don't particularly like babies. Even House apparently thought it was cute, and he doesn't like anyone. Even if the fetus wasn't actively grabbing Bruner's finger, it's still cute. Fetuses do move their hands at that age--and there's a pic somewhere where one looks like it's playing the clarinet. whee I don't like that people have attempted to use the pic as anti-abortion propaganda, but I think they're using it in the wrong way: if fetuses don't feel pain, why would they need to be anesthetized? Clearly they do at that age, and clearly defects can be corrected in utero, so why not ban late-term abortion? (Especially since, as so many claim, it's so rare...) Therapeutic late term abortions are legal because they are performed when a fetus is dead, dying, or the mother's life is at risk. And yes, a lot of late term abortion statistics do include fetuses who are already dead. It's still considered and abortion because the pregnancy is being ended through the medical procedure. Very few fetal defects can be corrected with surgery. There are a lot of conditions that can not be corrected and cause a lot of suffering once the baby is born. Harlequin syndrome is an example of something that can not be corrected and causes a lot of suffering. There are also all sorts of conditions where the mother's health is being compromised by the pregnancy and there is no way to correct it other than ending the pregnancy. It wouldn't be a late term abortion though. 21 weeks is still second trimester, which is legal electively depending on what state you're in.
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:18 am
off subject, but i find those abortion ads disgusting, flautning that they perform abortions up to 22 weeks, in bright flashy letters. "New! micro-suction", one ad boasted. knowing what it is, it makes me almost vomit, almost cry.
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:29 pm
divineseraph off subject, but i find those abortion ads disgusting, flautning that they perform abortions up to 22 weeks, in bright flashy letters. "New! micro-suction", one ad boasted. knowing what it is, it makes me almost vomit, almost cry. I have never seen an abortion ad. Are these real television ads?
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:19 am
no, phonebook, billboards, print.
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:15 am
Aiko_Kaida Therapeutic late term abortions are legal because they are performed when a fetus is dead, dying, or the mother's life is at risk. No one's trying to ban late-term abortions that are medically necessary, only elective ones. Why would anyone ban the removal of a dead fetus? That's like banning cremation...
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:31 pm
La Veuve Zin Aiko_Kaida Therapeutic late term abortions are legal because they are performed when a fetus is dead, dying, or the mother's life is at risk. No one's trying to ban late-term abortions that are medically necessary, only elective ones. Why would anyone ban the removal of a dead fetus? That's like banning cremation... There are people who want to ben late-term abortions that are medically necessary. I'm not saying anyone here is that cruel or that crazy, but there are people who call themselves pro-life who would like for women to be forced to die rather than have medically necessary abortions. As far as I know, elective abortions are not legal in the third trimester. Only therapeutic abortions are legal in the third trimester. Anyone have any links about the legality? I had one on my other computer but I can't remember it. Anyway, if anyone is curious enough and wants to see the people that really do want women to die rather than get an abortion that is medically necessary you can visit this forum. Be cautious about posting. Disagree with them at all and you will be called names and harassed. http://forums.delphiforums.com/prolifeviews/start
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:32 pm
divineseraph no, phonebook, billboards, print. I don't think I have ever seen an abortion ad or even a pro-choice ad of any form, but that probably has something to do with where I live. Planned Parenthood is listed in the phone book, but isn't an ad.
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