Manipulating the Rules

[DWSage007]

Howsabout a Bard that can cause just about anyone to do what he says, regardless of who/what they are?

'Cause I found out how to do it.  

[DJ Ducki]

DWSage007

Howsabout a Bard that can cause just about anyone to do what he says, regardless of who/what they are?

'Cause I found out how to do it.

I think we've all found out about the Half-Elf Bard at lv2 having over a +23 to diplomacy checks >.>;  

[Iomma Sensei]

DJ Ducki

DWSage007

Howsabout a Bard that can cause just about anyone to do what he says, regardless of who/what they are?

'Cause I found out how to do it.

I think we've all found out about the Half-Elf Bard at lv2 having over a +23 to diplomacy checks >.>;

Could I do worse with an Assimir Cleric at that level?...


...I think I can... *Runs to her bay, grabs her books and studies*  

[DarkHayama]

DWSage007

Howsabout a Bard that can cause just about anyone to do what he says, regardless of who/what they are?

'Cause I found out how to do it.

Heh, well, no matter how high their diplomacy is, they won't be able to convince everyone to do anything. Some times a person just can't be persuaded, no matter how diplomatic you are (yay for being stubborn heh). Or sometimes, they just hate you, and there's nothing you can do to change that. In those cases, I don't think you could beat the DC, as the DC would be non existant heh. Also, can't convince them of anything if you don't speak any languages they do.  

[DWSage007]

Actually, you're all incorrect! Here's how it plays out...

Get the Bard to level 7. There are two important spells you need, one of which I'll tell you later. The first is Eagle Splendor. That's a +4 to your Charisma as it is. Then you need max ranks in Bluff. Then you need anything that boosts CHA-related checks even more, such as a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all Cha-related checks) or a cloak of Charisma (+2, +4, or +6 to Charisma, depending on the power of the cloak) or even an Ioun stone of Charisma. It works best if you have them all, of course.

Then at 7th level, you learn Glibness. This gives you a +30 to bluff. This is important.

There is an epic-level skill you can use with bluff-You implant a Suggestion, as the spell, into someone's head. However, they get a +50 to Sense Motive. This is why all the magic junk is so useful.

Max ranks in Bluff + Cloak+ Stone + Circlet + 20 Charisma (Assuming you started with 18 and put both points into it) + Glibness = 52 Bluff. It's close, but if it's an NPC? They do whatever you want. And then you boost it even further as you gain levels, get more magic gear, get more ranks in bluff...the list goes on.

It was -fun- when I threw this at the GM and made his big bad villain go and take a swim in the acid pool because he 'looked too hot.'  

[Little Green Soldier]

Hehe, that's beautiful. I wish I'd thought of that.

Dmitrich has pretty good charisma checks, enough to get normal people to do pretty much anything, but not enough to do things that border on just plain superhuman. It helps that he's the obligatory prettyboy in my character repertoire.

I had a halfling with an insane hide check bonus. It nearly made the DM tear his hair out.  

[DJ Ducki]

only thing is, when you get a pretty sadistic DM, those type of things won't work =p I know it's possible to do superhuman actions, but the DM's powers ARE superhuman godly. Your DM could have just said that the monster foiled your suggestion attempt and turned it back at you xD It all depends on how they want their campaign to run and how MUCH they want their campaign to run =p  

[DarkHayama]

DJ Ducki

only thing is, when you get a pretty sadistic DM, those type of things won't work =p I know it's possible to do superhuman actions, but the DM's powers ARE superhuman godly. Your DM could have just said that the monster foiled your suggestion attempt and turned it back at you xD It all depends on how they want their campaign to run and how MUCH they want their campaign to run =p

Yep, that's one thing that I think some people don't realize. The DM can pretty much do anything. His word is absolute. I've seen people asking what they can do about a player who's character is just really good with things (like diplomacy) and they don't seem to realize that technically, as the DM, they can just say something fails. A good DM would probably have a good reason behind something failing (not just say that it failed), but still. Also, in my opinion, a good DM knows his players, and the character's he's running with. He will take a look at the character sheets, find the characters strengths and weaknesses, and play around them. If you have a battle you don't want them getting their way out of with something sneaky like that, make it in a dead magic zone, or make the monster immune to that type of spell for some reason, or something like that. But, especially with such high leveled characters, it's important to know your players, and know what their characters are capable of.  

[AsuraTheDrunk]

Yea I've had a handful ov charisma base characters in my day, my DM learned to love circumstantial bonuses.

DM: Well this halfling is a bit racist toward humans so we'll bump the DC 5 points for that, he also generally doesnt like you another 10 points.....


yea, also diplomacy isnt gabbing somebody into doing anything, its persuading them that your right, they might still be a stubborn little twit and do something else anyway crying I told them not to touch it but nobody listens to me  

[GS Sailor Saturn]

There was one time, now I come to think of it...I was running a one-shot at an all-day event.
It was Excel Saga done to BESM d20.
The players (all 8 of them) were in the sewers under Fukoka, trying to find the ACROSS HQ. They had split up to find it better. I'd made a mistake with the enemies (I'd done them hurridly) so that they couldn't hurt the players (armour above the max possible damage) and I was almost out of time.
The next line went like this:

Me: I roll for contrived circumstances. *pause* I pass.  

[Iomma Sensei]

That's just the basics of an epic level Bluff and Diplomacy check, there's worse. How'd you like to do that at....say...a much lower level with a Wizard? Be an Enhcanter, they get people to do things.  

[twilightwyrm]

Actualy, to all you DMs, here is a pretty good solution to your diplomacy woes: Diplomacy Skill  

[Fiver]

A lot of you are listing your favorite twinks without actually explaining how they're done. <.< I know why Iomma's keeping the infinite spells thing secret, but what about the rest of it?

And DWSage007? I know some of those things you stuck on that Diplomacy check don't stack. The cloak, the stone, and Eagle's Splendor are all enhancement bonuses to Cha, to start with. I'd have to look up the circlet and Glibness. And Suggestion, for that matter, because if I recall correctly, you can't Suggest that they do something completely against their nature. This can definitely include suicide. Heck, I couldn't even use it to get a halfling to give me a book. <.< It was annoying.

My personal favorite: the Elan Wilder. My ultimate tank.

Elans have an ability called Resiliance: Spend PP to negate damage on a 1 for 2 basis. Psions and Wilders get a lot more PP than HP.

Elans get a -2 Cha, which you'd think would be a detriment to Cha-based Wilders. While this does slow them down a bit, the choice of Wilder is very important for one reason: the 3 for 4 base attack bonus.

There is a 1st level psychic power called Energy Ray. It is a ranged touch attack. Suddenly, your lower save DC's aren't a problem, and your superior base attack means everything. That, and Wilders can use Wild Surge for extra power, so they're not necissarily going to be spending PP as fast as Psions, leaving it for use in preserving their HP. With a few Metapsionic feats, you're dealing more damage than dipping someone in lava by level 10.

If you're playing gestalt, just add rogue for rays that will take down opponents of CR much higher than your level within a round or two. Even better, you get to choose between four energy types! Imagine that red dragon's surprise when you start slinging Cold Rays at him. What's that? No save? Automatic double damage! Need to break through a wall of solid adamantine? Sonic Ray will rip through it like paper.  

[Little Green Soldier]

Psions in general are hard to handle if you're inexperienced, they get a lot of one hit KO powers at higher levels. And I mean a LOT, as well as powers that can render an enemy totally helpless. Fuse Flesh is a fun one. I can't wait 'til Trance gets that one xd scare the rest of the party witless.

This is why I don't let newbies play Psions. I make them stick to the core classes, Psionics can break games with inexperienced players.  

[Fiver]

Fuse Flesh is downright evil, but nothing beats the absolute creepiness... of the Telepath power list.